If we cared more about positive immigration, we’d have more doctors/staff and thus shorter waiting times.
Precisely.
I refer you to my previous post. We need to move the conversation about immigration away from all the stuff about illegal immigration, asylum seekers and people smuggling etc, which is what 99% of the "general public" are squabbling about (despite the fact that most people probably agree what needs to be done - anyone disagree that the boats need to be stopped?) and back towards actual immigration for the benefit of the country.
How many workers do we need in medical/care sector, where do we need them, and how are we going to fill that gap with training and/or immigration. How are we going to make sure that those people are going to be paid enough to properly contribute to society? How will local infrastructure be strengthened to accommodate x new people? What about housing? What about their families? What are our future needs year on year, and what % of these should be met domestically vs via immigration.
We need to start talking about the grown-up stuff, not just all this "ban the boats" shit
All your great points above look too much like hard work to me so I am going with "stop the boats"
there are twenty odd horses at the riding school. The have their friends, alliances and enemies just like humans. Put a new horse it the field and it will get bitten and kicked.
Within the field horses form tribes often based on colour.
Introduce two new horses to a field together and the strongest will try to defend the weakest from the attacks of the others. They live in a gheto in a corner of the fied and have trouble getting at the hay and water. There's a pecking with the new arrivals at the bottom.
Take four horses and put them in another field, say three brown ones and one white one. The white one will get chased around bitten and kicked.
Horses are xenophobic, tribal and racist, so are humans.
Bloody piebalds, coming over here with your fancy apples…
(despite the fact that most people probably agree what needs to be done – anyone disagree that the boats need to be stopped?)
well actually 😉
the boats currently provide a “filter” so that most of the physically weakest are excluded; they have to either be willing to work for buttons to pay off a debt, entrepreneurial enough to get the cash for the trafficker, or have some family money, and they are willing to risk their lives to be here - sounds like exactly the sort of things the tories look for in citizens!
meanwhile we have 18 yr olds moaning that they don’t want to do National Service… perhaps everyone should be dumped in France and made to find their own way back.
oh, I can imagine a tv show about it - would we go with “Hunted International” or “Race across the channel” or perhaps we could give them a bit of a hand with some big inflatables and make “Total Wipeout the Return”.
in seriousness - everyone agrees that organised criminals smuggling people across the channel in overloaded unsuitable small boats is not a good idea. Nobody agrees how to stop it - typical government approach of ban it and police it clearly fails. So you are left with removing the incentive - logically you make mechanisms for people to apply from somewhere in France (or other countries) and then travel safely with the paperwork. I sometimes think the current government is trying to solve the problem by making the UK an unattractive place to be (for everyone) with shit infrastructure a broken healthcare system etc, perhaps that’s to discourage migration!
Cougar
Because it’s STW, or because those who are opposed appear to lack the ability to articulate why?
It's because it's STW. It's a bubble that is not reflective of wider society. Even forums such as /r/unitedkingdom on Reddit which were heavily pro-immigration even just a year or two back (possibly even more-so than STW) are now saying it needs to be dialed back a bit.
My own experience & view on immigration is similar to DT78 earlier in the thread, however I avoided posting because I couldn't be arsed to deal with the possibility of a pile-on from certain members. I'd imagine many people avoid putting their head above the parapet for the same reason and as a result, it can be a bit of an echo chamber.
STW is full of people from upper class areas who have zero experience of immigration on their doorstep. People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.
People who live amongst it daily have less liberal views.
STW is full of people from upper class areas who have zero experience of immigration on their doorstep. People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.
People who live amongst it daily have less liberal views.
OK, so talk us through it. What would change if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration? Genuinely curious here
people's opinions would change. That's what I'm saying.
I'm not being a d*ck, just want to understand better. You're saying people's opinions would change just by seeing immigrants around them? White immigrants too, or just ethnic minority?
Thing is, I think you're right; but if people's opinions change just because of *seeing* immigrants every day, then the answer is nimbyism at best, or just racism. The arguments of "....because they use the NHS/ take our housing/ etc" come *afterwards*, to excuse the immediate gut reaction of not liking them.
Even my distinctly middle class village has seen a lot of immigration in the last 10 years, as eastern Europeans and other nationalities have moved in to work at the adjacent storage/distribution centre.
The village shops get more trade, and a new one has just opened, the primary school has enough kids going in to keep numbers up, the care homes are fully staffed, we have kids from several backgrounds in our Scout and Guide groups and the various sports teams which has really broadened the outlook of all concerned.
Most importantly, people of black or asian appearance no longer get abused in the street, as they did 20 years when we first moved here. Channel 4 used to film documentaries about the BNP round here.
Because it’s STW, or because those who are opposed appear to lack the ability to articulate why?
Because the middle classes suffer little to no negative impact from immigration and, as seen in this thread, think its great, and that anyone who disagrees with them must be stupid, racist, or gullible (or all three).
Surrey: White Flight to the Isle of Wight (I leant to rap when I grew up in my non-homogenous 'hood).
People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.
Funny that areas with most immigration are most pro immigration and the areas that are most anti immigrant are those areas with the least immigration. Its almost as if living amongst immigrants shows folk that the propaganda pumped out about immigrants is false
The really sad thing is that despite this kind of discussion, the lines are drawn - I have my beliefs, you have yours, and the number of people who actually look at the other point of view and change their mind is vanishingly small.
That probably points to many of the "reasons" for being anti-immigrant being less logical and more lipstick on the pig of gut reaction, but more importantly means we'll never agree on where or how it's good/ bad and how best to manage it
Its almost as if living amongst immigrants shows folk that the propaganda pumped out about immigrants is false
That or you have lots of immigrants answering the questionnaire.
The concern is that people, (through no fault of their own) grow up in environments that aren't comparable to that in the UK. . The way females may be treated, the way kids can grow up around death and destruction etc. It can mean integration into a different society is difficult.
Then the fact that the only accommodation cheap enough to house people is in impoverished areas. Middle class areas don't have to accommodate.
Controlled immigration is essential for the economy. But if it's not controlled it becomes an issue.
people’s opinions would change. That’s what I’m saying.
In which direction? You appear to be saying "it's alright for you lot, but you wouldn't like it if you had a darkie next door." That's really not what you mean, is it?
In any case, the opposite is measurably true. Areas with the least immigration are most likely to oppose it, and vice versa. We clearly saw this in exit polls in 2016.
Controlled immigration is essential for the economy. But if it’s not controlled it becomes an issue.
True enough.
This again was an argument in the referendum. The fact of the matter is that the UK was perfectly able to tighten up its immigration policy and actively chose not to. And of course, post-brexit the 'nasty EU stopping us taking control of our borders' rhetoric has been removed, it's wholly a domestic issue. Any perceived or actual problem is of our own making.
OK, so talk us through it. What would change if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration? Genuinely curious here
It just gets more interesting
STW is full of people from upper class areas who have zero experience of immigration on their doorstep. People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.
I'm not going to get in a virtue competition with you or anyone else to shows who's got more lived experience of immigration to the UK, but:
1) 18% of Surrey residents are immigrants - a 26% increase from 2011. The immigrant population of Surrey is 23% higher than the national average (which is 14% of the UK population).
2) the 8 richest (by gross disposable household income) areas in the UK are:
- Kensington and Chelsea: 53% immigrants
- Hammersmith and Fulham: 36% immigrants
- Camden: 48% immigrants
- City of London: no data on ONS website
- Wandsworth: 37% immigrants
- Hounslow (which surprised me): 47% immigrants
- Richmond-upon-Thames: 31% immigrants
Fair to say that people in "upper class areas" have probably bumped into the odd immigrant or two.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uks-richest-neighbourhoods-revealed-your-29084567
3) if the suggestion is that people who live in places with low immigration should pipe down, then maybe we should be hearing less from our friends in Scotland (33% fewer immigrants than UK average), Wiltshire (60% fewer immigrants than average), Barnsley (50% fewer immigrants than average) and the like.
4) but in any case that would be a stupid suggestion as neither lived experience nor living in a high immigration place means you have the slightest clue about anything. Your post or my post or probably both our posts prove that.
5) to go to the one possibly useful bit of your post: immigration and unskilled immigration are not the same. And yet of all immigrants in the workforce in 2022 sorted by country of birth, it was Eastern European EU immigrants that were most likely to be in "low skill" jobs - and even then it was only 18% of that subgroup. The other 82% were in medium-low, medium-high or high skill employment. Source: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-labour-market-an-overview/
I tell you what, I can almost smell that roast from here! I lived in a block that had a large proportion of South Asian and Chinese families, and the smells at meal times were amazing.
anderzzFree Member
The concern is that people, (through no fault of their own) grow up in environments that aren’t comparable to that in the UK. . The way females may be treated, the way kids can grow up around death and destruction etc. It can mean integration into a different society is difficult.
mmm... ye-es. Thing is, I'm not sure females or kids are treated consistently well in "English" families either; and the foster system shows that we're not exactly role models, as a country, of how to bring up well-adjusted children.
It’s because it’s STW. It’s a bubble that is not reflective of wider society.
If STW is centrist/leftie doesn't that actually mirror UK voting intentions pretty accurately?
So by definition it is mirroring wider society. Wouldn't you agree?
My own experience & view on immigration is similar to DT78 earlier in the thread, however I avoided posting because I couldn’t be arsed to deal with the possibility of a pile-on
Was there a pile on, on DT78? The most I've seen in here is people, in detail, pointing out the measurable positives of migration with detractors relying upon anecdotes or emotional justifications that don't just hold water. It's that simple.
@anderzz
Free Member
STW is full of people from upper class areas who have zero experience of immigration on their doorstep. People would change their tune if Surrey was suddenly packed with unskilled immigration.
Just like with most generalisations, that statement is deeply flawed.
If you came to my street of terraces in an urbanised area of Kent I'd introduced you to our islamic neighbours that offered to get our meds and food sorted when I was too ill to shop myself a couple of years back.
Then the guy of Indian heritage across the roads that has just spent 3 years training in his speciality to get a job in the NHS.
Then I'd take your down the road to say hi to our road's weed dealer. He's white by the way, if that's even relevant?
Is this representative of every road in the UK? Of course not, that would be a ridiculous generalisation.
Once you pick at a loose thread in a generalisation, it always comes apart quickly.
@ policecameraaction Hounslow includes Chiswick. Some pretty expensive properties here 👍🏻
Ahhh, okay. That part of town is like a foreign country to me. I don't know if I have ever been there.
If STW is centrist/leftie doesn’t that actually mirror UK voting intentions pretty accurately?
If being the operative word. Based on the postings I would suggest it is much more left than centrist but I guess that’s all perspective
I would suggest it is much more left than centrist but I guess that’s all perspective
Indeed it is because to me this forum has a strong right wing bias - but a few lefties are noisy. But then I see labour as a right wing party. The concensus on here is right of centre
chrismac
If being the operative word. Based on the postings I would suggest it is much more left than centrist but I guess that’s all perspective
tjagain
Indeed it is because to me this forum has a strong right wing bias – but a few lefties are noisy. But then I see labour as a right wing party. The concensus on here is right of centre
There we have STW and people in general summed up, we are all on the forum and read the same posts yet come to completely different conclusions.
As for me? I love all you argumentative* buggers, without an ounce of sarcasm by the way!👍😁
* Yeah, that includes me on occasion of course.
Cougar
Full Member
No you don’t.
Oh yes I do!
Only read the first page so don't know which way the thread has gone, but this all boils down to one major thing to me.
Whatever the levels of immigration, there needs to be a coherent government plan to ensure the necessary level of services, housing etc are available as and when there is population growth. And it needs to be front and centre so people see and understand the now and the future.
That hasn't been happening for years....ever in fact.
People have a right to be concerned when there is no obvious plan, and as we know, a void will be filled one way or another. I believe migration is too high at the moment because we are not planning how to deal with it. My concern is we live in a world which is unsettled (war, povery, climate etc) and more and more people affected will be looking to Europe. Its not great with no plan now, but in the years to come that will only get worse - see the rise of the right in Europe now. What the hell is going to happen there as more people migrate and there are no obvious plans as to how to deal with it. I dread to think.
Now, in the uk, you could say the Tories have created the migration "situation" on purpose so there is an easy finger to point when things aren't as they should be. But that is in the past (or it will be on July 5th) and I will be very interested to see how Labour manage this. Will they provide some details people can buy into other than a headline "more immigration is good cause immigrants are a net economic benefit". Afer 15 years of high immigration a lot of people are struggling so they aren't going to believe that whatever the truth because they certainly arent't reaping the econmic benefits.
Whatever the levels of immigration, there needs to be a coherent government plan to ensure the necessary level of services, housing etc are available as and when there is population growth. And it needs to be front and centre so people see and understand the now and the future.
No need, we just blame Europe for all our ills and post Brexit, we just blame immigrants.
Much easier than raising taxes to invest in infrastructure....
Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour
I measure most things in seconds these days. 😉
I haven't had a chance to read all this. But I'm an immigrant. However, people have less issue with me as an immigrant than they may have with, say, a Latinx family moving into their neighborhood. Maybe that says something about them.
Much easier than raising taxes to invest in infrastructure
In my experience this is the truth. While not wanting to derail this there's an alarming consistency in which anti abortion enthusiasts are also against increased family support to help women forced into keeping a baby. It's like blaming immigrants for shitting public funding while screaming about tax cuts.
Not much to add here but my feelings on all this start with a belief that anyone should have a right to live anywhere. I realise practically that's not workable but it's how I'd like to be treated. Global economy, global capitalism.. leads to global movement of people and I don't have a problem with that. I'm not going to suggest how to manage it, not my area of expertise at all.
"It just gets more interesting"
It does, that looks like some really sloppy Photoshop work. Was is posted by someone intending it to be seen as a genuine street BBQ?
“It just gets more interesting”
It does, that’s some really sloppy Photoshop work. Was is posted by someone intending it to be seen as a genuine street BBQ?
I picture searched it to see which accounts retweet it. I wasn't entirely surprised.
It's definitely photoshopped. The road in the cars mirror doesn't match up with the real road ( https://maps.app.goo.gl/pBezS6BXPb6hjCGbA) and the lady with the pram seems to be smashing her way through chairs / bins to get where she is.
HoratioHufnagel
Free Member
It’s definitely photoshopped. The road in the cars mirror doesn’t match up with the real road ( https://maps.app.goo.gl/pBezS6BXPb6hjCGbA) and the lady with the pram seems to be smashing her way through chairs / bins to get where she is.
Impressive detective work there, the image in the mirror is wrong, as you say. No lines of granite blocks along the road.👍
Because the middle classes suffer little to no negative impact from immigration and, as seen in this thread, think its great, and that anyone who disagrees with them must be stupid, racist, or gullible (or all three).
I grew up in some of the more questionable areas of West Yorkshire. Council estate as a child and worse places in and around Huddersfield and Halifax in my later youth. Whenever I encountered violence, shit behaviour, unsociable behaviour, crime in general and overall humans being dicks. Nine times out of ten it was English white people. The one time it wasn’t was when the race riots kicked off in and around Bracken Hill and The Riddings in Deighton. That was shite on all sides but 80% British people.
So speaking as someone who, up until relatively recently, lived in deprived areas with large populations of immigrants, it wasn’t the immigrants that were the issue. Ignorant, native whitey is where the issues were.
I now live in Cheshire so I’m clearly middle class. Most of the issues around here are, go on guess.
Even if that street barbecue photo was real – whats the moral differnce with this picture?
The ginger in the other picture was probably on the spit? I like the previous picture even more.
Even if that street barbecue photo was real – what's the moral difference with this picture?
Well one was a national holiday with 1000s of street parties
Anyway I apologise for posting that picture, didn't realise it was fake, mods please delete it.
