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Assume I’ve just landed from IO and have a mission to integrate into UK society. The time is approaching to cast a vote for leaders of a society who will take the country forward in an ethical, empathetic and prosperous- for- all manner. With no experience of the historic tribalism or bias or dogma of the past…who should get my vote?
Are you new here?
If you've come in from IO did you hitchhike? There's a bit of sage advice in the guide I believe about anyone capable of getting elected not being allowed to do the job.
ultimately where the country is at, there is no choice but to vote for the best chance to GTTO. Any navel gazing about whether we might not vote for SKS cos boring
I really do not want to vote for a brexiteer party and that is what labour is. "no case for rejoin" A vote for them will be seen as a vote for brexit.
I abhor labours positions on brexit, constitutional reform and democracy. for Scotland it will make no significant difference labour or tory government at Westminster given Starmer and labours hatred of Holyrood and insistence on more austerity so no increase in budgets. We also have a labour / tory pact up here/ vote labour get tory is real here. Its happening
fortunately my constituency has no chance of a tory. If it was a tory / labour marginal then it would be a very difficult decison
It doesn't matter. Most people even if they are poor will vote for the tories. We live in a resentful US influenced ideology where not being rich is your fault. God forbid you help anyone as these paupers will take the bread from your table. The middle millions deluded to believe they are getting f#$$ed over by poor people and not the pig head sh#$@ing upper echelons of society will carry on anyway. 😀
I guess the electoral calculus in Scotland is different TJ. And I'm frustrated too about Labour's position on Europe, but the farcical FPTP system means that they are playing a difficult game so as not to alienate swing voters in marginal seats. In Scotland you have a party who say EU unequivocally, in England there is no party with realistic chance of govt who openly support rejoin. As the opinion polls inexorably move even further towards rejoin the story will change I'm sure.
But split the vote and allow the tories back in, just no, vote tactically
Vote for Starmer? I feel that he is rather clueless in terms of running the country.
This has been the problem, both here and in the US recently. No one person can 'run' a government - that's down to civil servants etc. We vote for a party to govern, with a leader who acts as team captain. Look at the principals behind each party. It's not about celebrity or a handful of 'characters'. Politicians should mostly be boring but efficient. Entertainment should come from elsewhere. Judge them on actions not soundbites or headline quotes.
Don't believe the press, and social media should have no part in politics.
Conservatives are about doing well for yourself and then maybe feeling good about throwing some scraps to the needy. They want us to bang the drum for 'making britain great again' rather than moving forward for what next generation Britain needs.
Labour.
This has been the problem, both here and in the US recently. No one person can ‘run’ a government – that’s down to civil servants etc. We vote for a party to govern, with a leader who acts as team captain.
I reckon that if asked most people would say that the issues which concern them most are government policies, not how well civil servants are doing their jobs.
And when it comes to Labour policies that appears to be mostly decided by just one man.
I don't think this is a recent problem which is restricted to the UK and the US. Do you honestly believe that people are happy with their politicians in other countries?
Lib Dem for me. Tories have zero chance of my vote, although Chippenham is generally a safe Tory seat, going back to the 1930’s.
Labour might as well field the invisible man. The Lib Dem’s have done very well in local elections, and the representatives I’ve met are really nice people.
It's 'The Comfy Sweaters Lets Not Be Too Hasty Party' for me.
I won't vote Tory for reasons that are hopefully self evident...
I'm mostly alligned to lib dems, philosophically speaking, so that is my default vote... I may be persuaded to vote labour, but only because of where I live and for tactical reasons, I'm not really a fan of labour.
I'm in a constituency that has just changed its boundaries. Current MP is Labour, a Shadow Minister with an excellent record in her current constituency, but the new constituency will be target Number 1 or 2 for the Greens and they may well be successful (most of the local councillors are Green). I will continue to vote Labour as I don't believe the Greens will have any influence in a new Parliament with only one or two MPs, and it would be a real shame to lose an excellent local MP who would likely be a Cabinet Minister in a Starmer government.
Based on this requirement
society who will take the country forward in an ethical, empathetic and prosperous- for- all manner.
then Green is the only answer. If you want to know why, just read the manifesto and look at how the parties and MPs have acted over the last 5 years
It’s good to see that many on here see there is no real political solution at the minute, but incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out.
Currently there is no credible alternative in England they are all equally as bad as each other.
but incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out.
Yep, like voting for the Tory Enablers.
I will not vote for any party that uses Conservative principles to make policy.
It's flawed irrespective of Tory or Labour.
It's not pragmatic to vote Labour because they're not pragmatic! (Markets v Public Good.) Labour are simply treading a chase-the-vote policy which we all know is leading right wards.
Not good for the long term future of our country.
It's a big problem but you don't get change by voting for more of the same but without Tory personality.
Short term everyone wants relief.
Long term we need better ideas. The arguments should be not be hard to articulate given the state of the country.
Most people even if they are poor will vote for the tories.
This isn't true. In the last general election, only 67% of eligible voters actually voted aceoss the UK. Of them, 57% didn't vote for the Tories. Most working class people didn't vote Tory. In fact the only group of people that mostly vote Tory are older people.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
Currently there is no credible alternative in England they are all equally as bad as each other.
This is clearly bullshit. The Tories are horrendous, actively pursuing policies of division to bolster the corner of the electorate that will vote for them
Labour may not be perfect by any means (but which party is ever) but to say they would be as bad as the Tories is ridiculous. "They're all as bad" is an easy cop-out for those that don't want to recognise the complexity of getting elected in an environment damaged by years of simplistic populist politics.
In answer to those for whom Labour are just vote chasing - yes that is nature of first past the post and politics generally. I am constantly disappointed by the lack of ambition by Labour but also believe that (a) they are essentially better than the Tories and (b) will find it easier to shift the electorate when in power.
If someone has their foot firmly planted on your windpipe - does it make any difference if it's a right or a left foot?
People live with the illusion that we have a democratic system, but it's only the outward form of one. In reality we live in a plutocracy, a government of the rich.
The word “democracy” comes from two Greek words that mean people (demos) and rule (kratos).
People rule or rule people, is a slight of word.
Another quote from one of BMXer Taj Mihelich artworks:
By the people for the people / buy the people floor the people...
Democracy is just an illusion.
There’s always the nightmare scenario of living in a constituency where ukip/reform/brexit, whatever they call themselves now, have a real chance of defeating the tory candidate into second place. Would you overturn a lifetime of never voting tory to keep out a worse representative for your town?
Is that a 'nightmare'?
Isn't it more probable that they'll just split the Tory vote in a given constituency and gift a seat to Labour or the Libdems?
Voting for Farage's clowns is really a RW protest, with any luck they'll do more harm to the Tories than anyone else, do you really think you're going to have to keep Reform out of parliament by voting Tory?
Labour may not be perfect by any means (but which party is ever) but to say they would be as bad as the Tories is ridiculous. “They’re all as bad” is an easy cop-out for those that don’t want to recognise the complexity of getting elected in an environment damaged by years of simplistic populist politics.
The system is bad.
A vote for Labour is a vote for continuity of the current system and for yet another Tory government in 5 or maybe 10 years who will be just as bad as the current lot.
So yeah, they are not all as bad as each other but they are all promoting the same broken system. And if you vote Labour you are saying you are OK with that.
but to say they would be as bad as the Tories is ridiculous.
for Scotland that is true. for a decade now we have had Tories and labour working together in a really anti democratic manner to the point Scottish labour voted against measures that were Westminster labour policy because the SNP had that policy. the Bain principle - vote against the SNP no matter te policy
Also with Starmer saying that budgets will not increase it means that Scotland will be on the same budget. Starmer also supports westminster over ruling Holyrood against the wishes of Scottish labour
Labour also talk nonsense on the EU and refuses to do any sort of significant rapprochement. 70+ % of Scots electorate want to rejoin
I'd like someone to explain what difference labour or tory make for Scotland. there is non I can see.
I will not vote for any party that uses Conservative principles to make policy.
It’s flawed irrespective of Tory or Labour.
It’s not pragmatic to vote Labour because they’re not pragmatic! (Markets v Public Good.) Labour are simply treading a chase-the-vote policy which we all know is leading right wards.
Not good for the long term future of our country.
It’s a big problem but you don’t get change by voting for more of the same but without Tory personality.
Short term everyone wants relief.
Long term we need better ideas. The arguments should be not be hard to articulate given the state of the country.
It's strange, while I sort of agree with you in some ways, this mindset does feel like a sort of "militant apathy" in the current context, and isn't much more than the thinking person's "they're all as bad as each other". I guess if that's your perspective you either stay home on election night or maybe vote green?
I agree we need better ideas and conversations overall, but our national discourse is at a distinct low point and that only really changes by degrees, you don't jump from free marketeer, borderline fascists to inclusive, socialist utopians in a single step.
One of the choices on the table is what you're getting, you can either speak up and pick the 'least worst' or have other people's collective choice done to you, crossing your arms and whining that your favourite isn't on offer gets you nowhere...
How do I vote STW then? If such a collection of views; all with ultimately the betterment of mankind's lot at the core; can exist amongst this random group of people, why is that not replicated across society? Why can it not be replicated in the Government? You humans are an enigma. (I'm the one from IO remember?)
The important thing to remember is no vote is wasted.
Votes do two things. Elect governments and tell those governments what they need to do to attract those who didn't vote for them.
If you vote for a party they will ignore you. Why should they listen to you, you already voted for them.
If you don't vote for them they will look at where your vote went and possibly adjust their policies to attract your vote in the next election.
If the most popular minority party by popular vote is Reform, which way do you think both parties are going to go at the next election?
Likewise, if the next most popular party after LAbour and the Tories is the Greens, which way do you think both parties are going to go?
If you vote for a party they will ignore you.
It's pretty clear to most people that this Tory government are only listening to those that did vote for them at the last election, and couldn't give a flying duck about anyone else.
Good point BruceWee. There’s another option, spoil your ballot paper, that’s also recorded.
There’s another option, spoil your ballot paper, that’s also recorded.
And ignored.
It's like voting for if you want to be punched in the face or kicked in the shins repeatedly for the next few years, or you go for the third option of having gooch hairs ripped out everytime you make a move for the next few years instead.
They're all a joke, and all have their priorities in the wrong places.
None of them will be able to please everyone
None of them will be able to bridge the social divide we now have
None of them will make the UK a better place to live
None of them will do anything significantly good thanks to the shackles of the house of lords
It’s pretty clear to most people that this Tory government are only listening to those that did vote for them at the last election, and couldn’t give a flying duck about anyone else.
The Tories have been chasing UKIP and Reform voters for years now.
Because UKIP and Reform voters weren't voting for them.
There’s another option, spoil your ballot paper, that’s also recorded.
It is never shown in election results. Turnout usually is though. If you want to register your dissatisfaction with the choices on offer then not voting is going to be more effective than drawing a cock on your ballot paper.
None of them will do anything significantly good thanks to the shackles of the house of lords
What is it you want for the UK that the House of Lords is blocking? Because they really don't have that power in the face of a House of Commons that wants something. The MPs we elect collectively have the real power.
They’re all a joke, and all have their priorities in the wrong places.
None of them will be able to please everyone
None of them will be able to bridge the social divide we now have
None of them will make the UK a better place to live
None of them will do anything significantly good thanks to the shackles of the house of lords
Maybe, but some will be trying harder than others. The Green Party priorities would to me be more in the right place and direction than any other party. Awaits comments on FTFP etc, etc,. but that is not what the question is, it is which party would even try and change things for the better for the majority of people.
People rule or rule people, is a slight of word.
Real eyes realise real lies. Very profound.
for a decade now we have had Tories and labour working together in a really anti democratic manner
"Anti-democratic action is when you disagree with the SNP".
I was going to respond to other peoples post but others have covered it off
Labour unfortunately is not an alternative, their politics are no different to Tory. They have no policies, or vision other than to slag off the Tories. Over the last 5 years there have been plenty of opportunities to create a clear stance against a number of significant cock ups. Not once have Labour described an alternative solution or confirmed a manifesto different approach just tit for tat name calling. It’s shameful
If such a collection of views; all with ultimately the betterment of mankind’s lot at the core; can exist amongst this random group of people, why is that not replicated across society? Why can it not be replicated in the Government? You humans are an enigma. (I’m the one from IO remember?)
I don't think all people do consider the betterment of mankind when looking at politics, at least not in all aspects, no one person holds true to any parties policies in their entirety, you won't find any Lab/con/LD/Green/Kipper/etc who entirely agrees with and supports all of their parties current policies and rhetoric. How loudly they sound any dissenting views is another matter.
Politicians are no different, it's perhaps fair to say that while the representation we have is an exaggeration, it does generally reflect at least some collective views and beliefs of the flawed and contradictory beings that cast their votes. Hence a periodic reset is needed to try to realign government and the majority. How successful that realignment is largely depends on the motives of those voting, what is actually on offer, what propaganda is used and how constituency boundaries have recently been massaged by the incumbent party...
Of course it's a flawed system but it's the best one we currently have, there are no doubt better, there's certainly worse.
Didn’t labour first propose the oil company windfall tax? The tories then saw how popular it was, so pitched it as one of their own.
‘All the same…’
PCA - no anti democratic action is supporting a veto on something the scots parliament has decided. Anti democratic action is labour having an electoral pact with the tories that gave tories 10 seats and saved Mays government leading to brexit. Anti democratic action is London labour having a policy, scottish labour voting against that same policy because the SNP and greens supported it. Anti democratic action is labour going into coalition with the tories on multiple councils to keep the SNP out. Constitutional matters are irrelevant to councils. But the pact with the tories has led to labour voting for cuts.Edinburgh has a coalition of labour tory and lib dems. Anti democratic action is refusing to acknowledge that the majority UK wide want back into the EU and thats a huge majority in Scotland
we have 4 social democratic parties in Scotland . labour would rather work with far right tories than with SNP. labours tribal hatred of the Snp because the SNP took power leads them to this absurd situation whereby they do this. Their presence at Holyrood has been one of a child having a tantrum and throwing furniture around
In Scotland vote labour get tory is a true statement. We are looking at a high probability of a labour / tory coalition in holyrood after the next scottish election
I do not vote SNP and do not support them for other reasons but I cannot vote for labour while they behave like this.
It’s good to see that many on here see there is no real political solution at the minute, but incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out.
Considering the damage they have done, it seems like a reasonable first step to me.
It’s ‘The Comfy Sweaters Lets Not Be Too Hasty Party’ for me.
I would vote for this, where do I sign up?
I reckon each of us has two choices. Do the @BruceWee suggestion, and vote for the party that best demonstrates the values and policies you want regardless of how well they do, becasue he's right, if you don't vote for them, the two major parties will pay attention to what you are voting for. The problem with that is time...The other option is vote tactically for the party that will remove the Tories because of the very immediate and obvious damage to our society that they're doing, the problem with that is that you'll get a slight improvement, but largely the status quo.
Given where we are right now, I'm doing the latter, but I completely get why you'd choose the former.
incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out
Unless you are waiting for some utopian bloodless revolution it's the only valid way to take the first step towards positive change.
Tories Out At All Cost is based on the real world of today in this country.
I and make others are done with pointless protest votes that just keep the Tories in. Done.
Get Labour (or Lib/Lab/Green pact... That's fine with me) in then bash them if necessary.
It’s good to see that many on here see there is no real political solution at the minute, but incredibly worrying that many will do anything just to get the tories out.
I can see lots of paths to a better UK... and every single one starts with having as few Conservative MPs as possible after the next election.
Anti democratic action is labour going into coalition with the tories on multiple councils to keep the SNP out.
That's not anti-democratic. None of the stuff you've mentioned is. You just don't like the outcome, and don't understand why opposition parties can't stop being so beastly to the government by disagreeing with them.
I can see lots of paths to a better UK… and every single one starts with having as few Conservative MPs as possible after the next election.
The problem is if you are voting for a party that advocates continuing with the current system, as a vote for Labour supports, then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.
It's not a first step. It's the 800th step in a process that is not going in a good direction.
You have the luxury of the @BruceWee position. Use it wisely.
It's worth remembering though that all votes are not created equal. If you live in a marginal constituency then where your vote goes is going to get far more attention than a vote in a safe seat.
Without a doubt it's a dilemma, but just remember that without a fundamental change the Tories are going to be back and probably worse than before. Especially if the only people voting for no-hoper parties in marginal seats are voting for Reform.