I can see lots of paths to a better UK… and every single one starts with having as few Conservative MPs as possible after the next election.
Whereas I see removing the tories and replacing them with the current Labour party a path for the Tories to return in an election or two and push the country even further into a right wing oligarchy. The tories and their ideology are a cancer, replacing them with Starmers labour is treating cancer with painkillers, it will mask the pain in the short term, but it will cure nothing.
never vote labour, the current tories are clowns but there is no situation labour cant make worse
It is PCA because its disguised and hidden. How many folk voted labour thinking that that meant more tory power - thats the issue. If it was discussed publicly beforehand you would be right. But it wasn't. Everyone knows that the SNP and greens work together. the fact that labour and tories are working together is hidden and denied
Do you really think labour supporters wanted coalitions with tories and this hidden electoral pact?
On Edinburgh council two councilors were suspended by the party for refusing to vote for the coalition with the tories.
What about labour in Scotland voting against Scots government proposals that are London labour policy? Its happened more than once.
Or how about the labour candidate in Rutherglen having to repudiate key parts of labour policy?
Its nothing to do with constitutional affairs anyway - its about a tribal hatred of the SNP because the SNP took power.
Labour in Scotland have forgotton who the enemy is
Whereas I see removing the tories and replacing them with the current Labour party a path for the Tories to return in an election or two and push the country even further into a right wing oligarchy.
If the Conservatives win another term... things won't stay as they are... they will further embed their political advantages... more first past the post... more legal limits on unions... more restrictions on those that speak out against them. If we don't get the Tories out this time, we won't get the "status quo", things will keep getting worse. This election is not just a protest about what the Tories have done over the last decade and more, but the only chance to stop what they will do to this country over the next decade and more. To let them carry on ruling after the next election... because you're worried about them coming back and ruling again after a future one... that's scary logic.
then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.
Maybe, maybe not, as you say yourself the party will want to know why you're not voting for it, if most tell them they're too extremely right wing, they'll adjust accordingly, no? Besides which, regardless of how a country organises its voting and parliamentary chamber there will always be right wing parties, they ain't going away.
then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.
But what ion the majority of people felt their lives/teh country was better under Labour. Why would they switch back to Tories. It will largely be in Labours hands to prove it can be better, even if not dramatically so.
The problem is if you are voting for a party that advocates continuing with the current system, as a vote for Labour supports, then you are voting for yet another Tory government, possibly even worse than the current one, in 5 or 10 years time.
So who do I vote for in order to get the Tories out?
If you feel so strongly that labour's position on x,y, or z is too awful to contemplate you can always get involved. Alternatively piss and moan on a mountain bike forum. This country simply can't afford another Tory government. Public Services are in an appalling state. If you can't vote Labour because Iraq or Libdem because tuition fees you're enabling the party that is systematically taking the country apart. There is no perfect party.
that’s scary logic.
Voting for a continuation of the current system and expecting the current system to change is scary logic.
If you feel so strongly that labour’s position on x,y, or z is too awful to contemplate you can always get involved.
I could do but I suspect my views would get me kicked out shortly after joining. Based on recent purges, at least.
This country simply can’t afford another Tory government.
That's unfortunate because that's what it's going to get. Another extreme right wing tory government chasing the votes of Reform and UKIP.
Voting for a continuation of the current system and expecting the current system to change is scary logic.
The current system is going to change... if we leave the Tories to it... they keep shifting the goalposts to favour themselves... and they get to do that by winning elections... despite most people who cast their vote voting for other parties. We let them rule based on minority support. As voters, we keep putting them in office. By not voting because "they're all the same". Or by splitting the opposition vote by not getting wise to how our voting system currently works.
That’s unfortunate because that’s what it’s going to get.
By your own theory though if you vote for the policies you want to see, the two major parties will follow you?
Another extreme right wing tory government chasing the votes of Reform and UKIP.
No you won't, becasue following your own theory of voting for policies you want to see enacted, the two major parties will follow you remember? The vast majority of folks in the UK lean slightly left or slightly right. Reform and UKIP won't be worth chasing as they'll be so small as to be irrelevant. According to you.
Edit: You can see this in action in the USA right now. In this off-election year, recently held local elections have seen the Republican vote collapse, why? Abortion rights. It's wildly unpopular, so even die hard republicans are holding their noses and voting democrat becasue they've rejected this policy, regardless of the fact that it's been a clarion call of the right wing evangelical vote for decades now. It will force the Republicans to act faster than the arguments about Trump will.
If the hinterlands are full of disenfranchised hard left Labour voters it could even be viable to start a hard left party in order to shift the conversation couldn't it?
Back to the pissing and moaning then...
By your own theory though if you vote for the policies you want to see, the two major parties will follow you?
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I think it's worth a try. It certainly worked for UKIP.
No you won’t, becasue following your own theory of voting for policies you want to see enacted, the two major parties will follow you remember? The vast majority of folks in the UK lean slightly left or slightly right. Reform and UKIP won’t be worth chasing as they’ll be so small as to be irrelevant. According to you.
I feel like I'm either not understanding something or you're baiting a really clever trap. Who am I in this scenario? Am I me the individual (whose individual actions make absolutely no difference to the outcome of the election), or am I representing the actions of thousands or even millions of other voters?
I don't get the don't vote labour because you'll get a worse Tory govt in next election or election but one. What is your answer?
Are you hoping that if things get so bad a new opposition will coalesce and sweep in a new era of equality
I can't stand aside and let the Tories run riot with the hope if things get bad enough something that fits my personal view of an ideal opposition with develop. Too much poverty, too much hate, climate crisis deepening.
Or by splitting the opposition vote by not getting wise to how our voting system currently works.
As I said, it worked out pretty well for UKIP.
I love the assmption that the only reason people vote Reform and risk splitting the Tory vote is because they are too stupid to understand FPTP.
That may well be the case. However, they got what they wanted. You can either learn from that or continue to vote sensibly because you are smart enough to understand FPTP.
What is your answer?
Look at the party manifestos and vote for the one that most closely matches your beliefs. Regardless of FPTP maths.
Or vote for a party that is more extreme than your beliefs. That will drag the mainstream parties in your direction as they chase your vote.
hard left party
So the only alternative, which would be significantly and fundamentally different to the current hard-right Tory government, would led by a "hard-left" party?
Despite being hard-left myself I was thinking that there might be the possibility of a social-democratic alternative, no?
It's just hard-right or hard-left?
We have 3 social democratic alternatives to labour in Scotland and at time ( before the inevitable splintering) a r real left wing party ( but not hard left) as well
Look at the party manifestos and vote for the one that most closely matches your beliefs. Regardless of FPTP maths
I am not unsympathetic to this approach - if there was a large shift to green voting it would potentially shift Labour policy - but only on environmental issues. However it's unlikely to cost Labour more than a tiny handful of seats under a FPTP system so unlikely to have much of an impact.
However, I think when we have such an horrendous government it's is posturing to not vote out the Tories, given our shitty FPTP system, if you have the chance in a swing constituency.
If you live in a rock solid safe Tory or Labour seat then fill your boots
I love the assmption that the only reason people vote Reform and risk splitting the Tory vote is because they are too stupid to understand FPTP.
No one has said this.
Remember, the Conservatives have been in power while being transformed by people (and media) with one foot in the Tory camp, one foot in the UKIP/Reform one. If, after the Tories are out of government, you see this as a path to changing the policies of a Labour led government, then I'd agree that it has merit. In the meantime, if we get another Tory one... then... it's all pointless. Dragging an opposition Labour party towards your ideal position by supporting other opposition parties, while others drag the Tories, still in power, towards theirs... no one will thank you, not least those hit hardest by yet more Tory rule.
no one will thank you, not least those hit hardest by yet more Tory rule.
And no one will thank you if a Labour government with an unassailable majority does very little or even nothing to alleviate conditions for those hit hardest by Tory rule.
BruceWee
And no one will thank you if a Labour government with an unassailable majority does very little or even nothing to alleviate conditions for those hit hardest by Tory rule.
The current Tory party is the actual, a future Labour party is still theoretical. They are bound to dump half of their manifesto pledges anyway as all parties do. That can mean both good and bad in this context.
I can only vote based on what I'm seeing now, not a theoretical future.
Btw, I'm not trying to be an argumentative sod. I'm very aware that we*all* want change, we just disagree on the best way of achieving it. 👍
And no one will thank you if a Labour government with an unassailable majority does very little or even nothing to alleviate conditions for those hit hardest by Tory rule.
There'll be another election... I'm not voting now based on their record in 6 years time. And anyway, I'm not saying vote Labour no matter what... I'm saying vote to not return a Tory MP in your seat... in many seats that means voting LibDem... I wish there were more seats where that meant voting Green... but that's not where we are for this election (that could change in future... anything can happen after step1... remove the Tories).
There's a bit of naive optimism going on here. We're all (well, most of us) are gagging to get the tories out but Starmer and Reeves have made perfectly clear their trickle down fiscal conservatism, their failure to support strikers and their toadying loyalty to US foreign policy. Once elected, governments have always shifted to the right. The LP has done that already. People wanting progress will have to fight for it. The posties, rail workers, nurses and doctors have risen to the challenge but a lot more of this will be required if we are to see improvements in society or else we just get more of the same.
Oh for God’s sake…I was given proper ID when they sent me here. Do you think they’re stupid on IO??
You sound very aggressive. Not sure you are the sort of person we want here. You are white and wealthy aren't you?
Well coming from Io csb is going to be busy breathing the sulfur dioxide we are producing that should help a bit with the climate change.
CSB might also be a great climber às Io is very mountainous but...then again it has very low gravity so...
For all those that are stating labour are now too far to the right a question. if the choice was a straight choice between the tories of the early 90s and the current government, who would you pick?
ultimately I get the rational brucewee is putting forward however like kelvin I don’t think this country has the luxury of waiting another 5-10 years for change, even if it’s not quite the change we want. if they get in this time round we are royally xxxed
We often blame politicians for only enacting policies based on short termism. If we want to make generational changes we have to start voting with an eye on more than one election cycle.
To make another analogy, the tories are rowing us towards the waterfall, labour are just allowing us to drift towards the waterfall, if we don't want to go over the waterfall we need to send a message that rowing away from the waterfall is how they get our votes.
I truly appreciate the time folks on here have given to elucidate their views. Thank you. It's clear that it's horribly complex to get any radical change; and that will never happen in our lifetime. Me, I could go for a benevolent dictatorship; but that ain't going to happen either. Revolution? We're not Gallic enough, anyway, look where it got the Arabs. Nothing in the mainstream appeals anymore but as many have said, a vote is not to be wasted.
Conversely, if they get in next year we’ll be over the waterfall in no time at all..
the only message voting in a Tory government sends the Torys is that they can basically get away with whatever they like as (at least with the way the voting system is rigged right now) the opposition’s vote it not unified. They won’t care what share of the votes they get, as long as they get into power then they can keep going with their wicked agenda, which is all that will matter to them
I don’t think this country has the luxury of waiting another 5-10 years for change, even if it’s not quite the change we want. if they get in this time round we are royally xxxed
It's not even a case of them getting in - I don't think they will. But Labour needs a sufficient majority to be able to legislate effectively and set themselves up for at least two terms in government. And the Tories need enough of a hiding that they recognise that far-right populism is not the route to power.
It’s clear that it’s horribly complex to get any radical change; and that will never happen in our lifetime.
I have seen radical change in my lifetime. Radical change in a relatively short period of time is perfectly feasible.
What might prove harder is achieving the sort of radical change which I can support, especially when it is dismissed as impossible to achieve.
I'd bear in mind that old quote of that politics being the art of the possible.
Are you willing to endure another 4+ years of Conservative government if the alternatives aren't what you exactly want? It seems a lot of people here are. You might need to settle for least bad.
Having supported Scottish independence since 1979. I was both excited and nervous in 2014 it was putting your ideals and beliefs on the line.
I, like many others put everything into it and lost.
However you have to try, every journey starts with the first step .
Are you willing to take 30 years of continuing neoliberalism stripping the quality of life of the many to serve a select few, for a few years pain relief where nothing changes.
I have never been able to buy a house, I have **** all pension, I can't vote in a way to salvage my life now in the current environment. But maybe I can do something to to change what happens for my nieces and nephews, now in their late teens, so that they are in a better position than me when they hit their 50's, and not just continue to be further generations of disposable commodities for the rich.
I’d bear in mind that old quote of that politics being the art of the possible.
I'll tell you what isn't possible, that's for the Conservative Party to remain in power forever. It simply won't happen.
What can happen though, is that the Conservative Party is replaced by another, differently named party, with the same policies repackaged.
What can happen though, is that the Conservative Party is replaced by another, differently named party, with the same policies repackaged.
I agree. The same as there will always be at least one party that attempts to attract the vote of the socially responsible/ aware... there will always be one (or more) that speaks to the I'm Alright Jack, lot too. It's name might change but the the desired direction doesn't.
@MSP 👍
Think of the children.
@ernielynch 👍
Scary prospect
@tjagain and @gordimhor 🤔
It's a tangled web
Thanks again everyone else, what a great place this is when everyone keeps their temper in check and actually discusses stuff 👍👍
if we don’t want to go over the waterfall we need to send a message that rowing away from the waterfall is how they get our votes.
How do we send that message?
mick lynch spoke at a forum at the labour party conference and his view was that (i paraphrase) a) the tories needed to removed from power at all costs b) the best way to do that was vote labour where possible or vote tactically where necessary and c) labour may not be the best fit for your beliefs but the party as it is can change and will do so even while in power. this is why it's called the struggle.
mick lynch and the rmt backed brexit IIRC, which is totally anathema to my views but i can agree with him on the above.
it was hosted by politocs joe if you want to look it up. towards the end.
work with those who align with your views where it counts or opt out of westminster politics. your choice.
edit: this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just in case anyone feels like it is directed at them, and gets their arse in their hand. not interested.
mick lynch and the rmt backed brexit
Well, that's quite the contradiction, for a union man, isn't it?
Does the union have to be his personal union, or could it be, for example, a larger union, possibly involving several of our closest European neighbours?
Corbyn was the same, I want socialism, but on my terms.....
Errm that makes you a dictator, mate.
