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@Shinton, there's some good information available out there for people affected by blood cancers mainly from lymphoma action or blood cancer uk. PM me info.
Is there are way of finding out the breakdown of tests into:
Workplace routine testing
Symptomatic walk-in and postal testingand the recent addition of School compulsory testing
And the positive ratio of each?
My understanding, certainly with the lateral flow tests they use at schools, is that they aren't directly counted in the reported case figures. If you test positive on the lateral flow test you are told to get a regular PCR test and that gets counted if positive?
MCTD - that wouldn't seem right in that they're including the lateral flow tests in the daily figures.
Unless there's some other explanation for the fact that in the last 24hrs 1.3mil tests were conducted but the PCR daily capacity is 770k.
If they're adding the lat flow tests into the daily figures you'd think they'd add the results too?
Then I was clearly mistaken for which I apologise.
They're certainly including LFT conducted in the daily 'overall number of tests carried out' figure. Does that mean that they are including LF positives in the positive test data? As MCTD says, everyone who tests positive is immediately sent to complete a PCR test, and my instinct would be that they wouldn't want the potentially lower accuracy of the LF test to pollute the data and mask any underlying trends at this point.
LF tests aren't being followed up by PCR tests in schools - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56349116
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=nation&areaName=England has a breakdown of positive test results by test type for England (for some reason the same info isn't available for the UK). You can also see from there that the positive test results figures for England are combined LF and PCR test results.
Each dot is one infection data point. There were 10 subjects followed for up to 35 years with serial serology. So across the four viruses people tended to be reinfected about every two and a half years, but with a long tail. I can’t see why this coronavirus will be any different, other than we can boost immunity if we have to between infections. With an annual or biannual vaccine.
Thanks for the reply, that's really interesting.
As MCTD says, everyone who tests positive is immediately sent to complete a PCR test
As I posted a few posts back schools are not accepting kids back even if they have a PCR negative result, they're not asking them to get one done its the parents who are doing it of their own accord.
That has to be a mistake. Why does a neg PCR not override what then becomes a false positive LFT?
As I posted a few posts back schools are not accepting kids back even if they have a PCR negative result, they’re not asking them to get one done its the parents who are doing it of their own accord
That later part’s not true at Jnrs school, the school is insisting pupils return home and receive full tests if the LTF shows positive. The Bering ramming that point home via email letters and text for the last 2 weeks.
In the minor milestones of Covid - completed lap one of the long haul. I think there's a few of us tick over into year two around now. 12 months ago I thought it was going to be isolation for seven days then merciless mickey taking when I got back into the office. 12 month fitness rollercoaster with a random symptom bingo card and redundancy wasn't exactly where I thought I would be.
Gov Policy:
If Lateral flow test positive administered in school, you cannot overturn it with a negative PCR.
If DIY at home, you can overturn with a negative PCR.
Logical? No, but it’s the rules.
12 month fitness rollercoaster with a random symptom bingo card and redundancy wasn’t exactly where I thought I would be.
Certainly been a terrible year for many, and I hope things improve for you on all fronts in the next few months.
I really hope that those of us who have been, and continue to be, fortunate enough to have missed the direct impacts of the virus will continue to support those who have been affected. Never imagined our relatively affluent little village would be running it's own food bank.
That later part’s not true at Jnrs school, the school is insisting pupils return home and receive full tests if the LTF shows positive.
Same here for my kids' schools.
Happy to be corrected on the use of unconfirmed LFT in the overall data. At least they've been doing it all along and separating them from those confirmed later by PCR.
Thanks flatpack!
I use the gov dashboard everyday, and hadn't noticed changing nation/region on the Cases page brings up interesting extra analysis, like the age demographic heat map.
Certainly looks like the case increase this week due to massive use of LF in schools, no surprise there really. Although ~1000 LF cases per day, and an extra million or so tests done per day, thats pretty much the false positive rate.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-analysis-of-lateral-flow-tests-shows-specificity-of-at-least-999
Shinton and OAP I really hope you can find some answers and start recovering soon.
I had my jab last night - ironically at the conference centre adjoining AstraZeneca near Macclesfield. The experience was amazing. Although I do feel quite ropey today.
Annoyingly the lady who works in our local independent greengrocers says it her 'right' not to have the vaccination. She is 60 yrs of age and obese, really! She needs to read this thread.
The shop is so convenient for me as I loath supermarkets, but really considering spending money elsewhere.
Annoyingly the lady who works in our local independent greengrocers says it her ‘right’ not to have the vaccination. She is 60 yrs of age and obese, really! She needs to read this thread.
The shop is so convenient for me as I loath supermarkets, but really considering spending money elsewhere.
To be fair, it is her right not to have the vaccination, even if it seems like a daft decision. I suspect things will get more interesting when people start to realise that not having the vaccination will probably prevent them from travelling abroad and are forced to choose between their right to be stupid and their right to lie on a beach in southern Spain.
Sowerbutts in Glossop is good or the fruit and veg stall opposite Sainsburys in New Mills on Fridays and Saturdays 🙂
. I suspect things will get more interesting when people start to realise that not having the vaccination will probably prevent
them from travelling abroadthem from dying
I think enough folks will get it that I'm not personally bothered if a minority of idiots don't. And it may sound cold hearted but if they end up dying through their own stupidity then tough shit.
BWD - indeed she has the right. But I don't want to be near her as she deals with hundreds of customers per week, in a fairly confined space. She hates masks, so wears a plastic visor.
Yes am considering the New Mills Stall and the Windsor Castle pub in Mellor, as they have fruit and veg stalls in their carpark.
Edit - tpbiker - but it does affect our overflowing NHS service and that's a real reason to care imo.
Back last year we were talking about hopefully a 70% vaccine take up. We seem to be getting 90%+ so far, way higher than France for example , who apparently are known to be vaccine sceptics.
I've hit the wall again this week with anxiety. I think coming up on a year of all this now has definitely changed me. I've noticed my social anxiety is much worse now too. Last night I went shopping by myself in a fairly empty store and I was a wreck when I got back into my car. Friends are starting to talk and plan getting together at the end of the month and I'm already worried about seeing people in close quarters. Not for fear of catching the virus, just being around people. December was the last time I rode my bike with others and even thinking about that makes me feel a bit uneasy. But also, the constant news stream about variants and vaccine issues really saps any glimmer of hope out of me.
St colin Start small and build up the socialisation. Hopefully it will come naturally in time especially as the weather improves. Try to ignore the constant stream of doom and gloom news reports. We live in a very safe part of the world and you really are at very low risk of anything nasty happening. It's just that every tiny little thing is being picked up and broadcast as soon as it happens rather than us being blissfully unaware of stuff.
I'm quite worried actually about how this is going to affect people with anxiety, depression, OCD etc going forwards. Are the media going to report on every new bug or virus that arises anywhere in the world now and keep people on a constant state of nervous tension...
keep people on a constant state of nervous tension…
Maybe this is a deliberate tactic to get us to adhere to the rules? I understand some of what is reported is useful.
I think I have definitely developed a few new problems over the last year that I didn't have before. Many people will be the same I'm sure.
We (people who cycle for recreation) have an advantage here over most people. Meeting up in pairs, and later small groups, for some exercise, fresh air, fun and a bit of a chat is an ideal way to slowly move back into social meet-ups.
I think enough folks will get it that I’m not personally bothered if a minority of idiots don’t. And it may sound cold hearted but if they end up dying through their own stupidity then tough shit.
Pr*ck.
And it may sound cold hearted but if they end up dying through their own stupidity then tough shit.
If sufficient people take up the vaccine then the ones that don't but still get infected will likely get a dose that's not as deadly, and are more likely to survive. which is good news for everone.
I think enough folks will get it that I’m not personally bothered if a minority of idiots don’t. And it may sound cold hearted but if they end up dying through their own stupidity then tough shit.
You know, a more compassionate take would be that we should look at the misgivings that vaccine skeptics have and looking at ways of allaying their fears rather than being belligerently indifferent if they were to die. There are stats showing that ethnic minorities have a lower take-up of vaccines for example, which suggests there's cultural stuff going on, but your take is 'tough shit'? Nice attitude.
If sufficient people take up the vaccine then the ones that don’t but still get infected will likely get a dose that’s not as deadly
How does that work nickc? (Genuine question, not sarcasm).
@stcolin I’ve hit the wall again this week with anxiety.
You are not the only one. I think there are many, many folk who have similar anxiety and it is going to take some time for myself and mrs_oab to work it through. Plan at the moment is meeting with a very few friends and family, outdoors, in the garden, on bikes or a walk. Step by step.
We've even been chatting about a hesitancy over going south to see family - it is a 4 hour drive, we aren't sure about heading into houses or using public loo's etc, we certainly are not going to the cafe or pub with them...
I think the hills and rivers will be our sanctuary for another year.
Pr*ck.
kind of how i feel about anti-vexers* TBH, only difference is they are effectively contributing to more lockdowns and deaths than those who decide vaccination is going to benefit everybody far more damaging than somebody who looks down on those weak minded individuals who don’t trust vaccines despite the millions of doses administered so far.
*not those who cannot have it for medical reasons
I’ve hit the wall again this week with anxiety. I think coming up on a year of all this now has definitely changed me. I’ve noticed my social anxiety is much worse now too. Last night I went shopping by myself in a fairly empty store and I was a wreck when I got back into my car. Friends are starting to talk and plan getting together at the end of the month and I’m already worried about seeing people in close quarters. Not for fear of catching the virus, just being around people. December was the last time I rode my bike with others and even thinking about that makes me feel a bit uneasy. But also, the constant news stream about variants and vaccine issues really saps any glimmer of hope out of me.
I could have written that word-for-word right now so you're definitely not alone. I've had periods pre-covid where I've had issues and felt I'd hit rock-bottom a few times, this current situation has pushed me to new lows. No job (for the first time in my adult life), no big days on the bike, no driving to remote places, no camping trips, no life really. I really don't know what I'll be like when we get out the other side of this as it has definitely changed me. I wasn't exactly a social animal before all of this, coming out of it I've got a small list of friends and family I want to see but have absolutely no appetite for crowds or parties. If it wasn't for two things I can currently focus on right now it's 50/50 I'd still be here.
I fear the 'New Normal' won't be compatible with me!
I’ve noticed my social anxiety is much worse now too. Last night I went shopping by myself in a fairly empty store and I was a wreck when I got back into my car. Friends are starting to talk and plan getting together at the end of the month and I’m already worried about seeing people in close quarters. Not for fear of catching the virus, just being around people. December was the last time I rode my bike with others and even thinking about that makes me feel a bit uneasy.
I'd recommend starting soon, as the rest of the population ease into it.
e.g. meet one friend/household for drinks in their garden (once allowed, later this month), pick an empty time to go to a non-supermarket shop or cafe, while people are still (for the most part) mask wearing and keeping their distance.
Put it all off until the summer or later and its going to be much more of a culture shock than it is now as people will be in bigger groups and probably less contact adverse.
We (people who cycle for recreation) have an advantage here over most people. Meeting up in pairs, and later small groups, for some exercise, fresh air, fun and a bit of a chat is an ideal way to slowly move back into social meet-ups.
Very much this. I couldn't bring myself to go back to group riding when the original lockdown was lifted, and have only ridden with one or two mates since the pandemic started. I've no worries around using public loos etc, but no chance you'll see me inside a busy pub this year. Opticians appointment this morning has left me edgy and on edge.
These worries are quite widespread and will take time for people to find their own new comfort levels
I think enough folks will get it that I’m not personally bothered if a minority of idiots don’t. And it may sound cold hearted but if they end up dying through their own stupidity then tough shit.
If anyone gives a legitimate reason to not have a vaccine (which do exist) then I will respect their decision and care about them, freedom of choice and all that.
If someones only objections are based on provably and demonstrably false rumours that basically comes down to "I've formed my opinion, and will listen only to random people on the internet who agree with me" then I shall direct my empathy elsewhere, they are beyond help.
How does that work nickc? (Genuine question, not sarcasm).
Vaccines work by reducing the viral load, not by stopping transmission. So if a vaccinated person gets COVID then the virus they pass on will likely be less virulent (because of the vaccines effect on it) so even if the person that catches it from a vaccinated person is themselves not vaccinated, the virus they catch will be less deadly, and hopefully not have such a perilous effect on them.
I think people should make up their own minds as to whether they are vaccinated, I hope that the vast majority have it through good clinical evidence that's presented to them and persuasion by qualified and respectful conversation, that'll mean that those (in this free society) who chose not to have the vaccine will still be protected. This is a good thing to my mind.
Maybe this is a deliberate tactic to get us to adhere to the rules?
More likely a deliberate tactic to fill column inches.
I could have written that word-for-word right now so you’re definitely not alone.
+1 although I'm not quite as bad. I am nervous of being around people and shall avoid it for as long as possible.
If sufficient people take up the vaccine then the ones that don’t but still get infected will likely get a dose that’s not as deadly, and are more likely to survive.
I’m not convinced. Given that asymptomatic infections are transmissible, it’s not a given that a vaccinated person is not still infectious but asymptomatic. It’s reasonable but unproven. Coronaviruses have a long history of reinfection over years, despite boosts in immunity. We will see. There is little doubt we will see impressive falls in symptomatic infection and hospitalisations. At least in the next few months.
Fortunately, there will be approved medicines to prevent and treat those who will not, or importantly cannot be protected by vaccination. I view the combination of high take up, alternatives and non-mandated take up as only a good thing.
But I expect waning immunity and either natural or vacccinal regular boosters. Reinfection in studies has invariably been mild to asymptomatic. Again this is good news.
Only a week back and both my kids schools are quarantining classes already
😭😭😭
Pr*ck.
You really need to ask yourself who the real prick is, the guy who looks down on gullible conspiracy theorists, or the selfish idiots that will potentially cost lives by refusing a vaccination and spreading misinformation.
Obviously anyone who has a medical reason for not getting the vaccine is another matter altogether.
You know, a more compassionate take would be that we should look at the misgivings that vaccine skeptics have and looking at ways of allaying their fears rather than being belligerently indifferent if they were to die
Allay their fears how? There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are safe. The experts tell us it's safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk's vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it's safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they've read online and very little scientific understanding. For people like that, like ayjay, I'll direct my empathy else where.
Only a week back and both my kids schools are quarantining classes already
A week back and no positive tests at either of ours 🤞
Apart from the lockdown restrictions we've not had a bad time of it, getting stuff done and enjoying more of each other's company. However, we've had time to reflect on what we really want to be doing and who we really like to see. It's not sociopathy, paranoia or agoraphobia, I just haven't got the time to waste on some of the types you can imagine living in torytown and it's amazing how 'social settings' can conceal just how boring people can be (often commented on by non-drinkers).
9.3.20 we were at the crowded Lowry for music, we stayed in the same hotel as the Madrid side and their mob, 10.3 my mrs insisted on attending a meeting in Southampton which meant travelling through Cheltenham. Some bloody close calls but my wife gets a jab today and we can maybe start planning again, just (quite) a bit differently.
selfish idiots that will potentially cost lives by refusing a vaccination and spreading misinformation.
Understandable, but aren’t there a lot of people who have little confidence that the establishment will act in their best interests, deporting them to countries they have never lived being one of the worst examples, consistently ignoring their problems, and now that lack of trust comes back to bite, and as the media have ignored them and not realised that they don’t enjoy middle class comedies about suburban angst there is no medium of communication available to counter what they read on Facebook. I’m not sure if that is true as I live in my own bubble, but it seems a plausible explanation for why people act against what you and I see clearly as their own best interests.
Why CG is anti vax - I can’t begin to imagine.
Allay their fears how? There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are safe. The experts tell us it’s safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk’s vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it’s safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they’ve read online and very little scientific understanding. For people like that, like ayjay, I’ll direct my empathy else where.
Plus 345 million COVID 19 vaccinations have been given without causing a zombie apocalypse.
Why CG is anti vax – I can’t begin to imagine
Because given the above, unless she has a valid medical reason, she's an idiot
Plus 345 million COVID 19 vaccinations have been given without causing a zombie apocalypse.
At least not yet. Realistic? Not to me or you, but it’s an obvious reply.
Why CG is anti vax – I can’t begin to imagine.
Why do you assume she is? I just took the prick comment as finding it distasteful not caring that anti-vaxxers may die through their own stupidity.
She's got previous form if you look back far enough on this thread
You really need to ask yourself who the real prick is, the guy who looks down on gullible conspiracy theorists, or the selfish idiots that will potentially cost lives by refusing a vaccination and spreading misinformation.
Obviously anyone who has a medical reason for not getting the vaccine is another matter altogether.
Allay their fears how? There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are safe. The experts tell us it’s safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk’s vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it’s safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they’ve read online and very little scientific understanding. For people like that, like ayjay, I’ll direct my empathy else where.
Crumbs, you sound like one angry chap and how dare you accuse me of reading "nonsense online" and "very little scientific understanding". I have never written my thoughts in a post, the only comment I've made is that I will not have the vaccine and did not give a reason.
Let's deal with the term "antivaxxer". I've had childhood jabs, as have my children so hardly an "antivaxxer". Recently I refused a flu vaccine, it's not something I've had before and see no need for it. As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I've done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
You can't say that it's safe, that will not be known for years and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
Crumbs, you sound like one angry chap
I'm not angry in the least. As I have said I genuinely don't care if you get it or not, nor what happens to you if you don't get it. In Fact I'm almost the opposite of angry...The more folks decide to not get it the quicker those who do want it but are lower down the pecking order will get the jab..
how dare you accuse me of reading “nonsense online” and “very little scientific understanding
OK, let's hear your scientific rational for not getting it then? Tell why you think it's not safe, tell us what stages they skipped in the development process etc etc... tell us why you think you are correct and the people whom specialise in vaccines are are wrong?
If you know something everyone else on here doesn't then please share as I'm sure lots of folks (including me) would love to know the dangers before we get the jab.
As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I’ve done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
Which is a valid position (if a contentious one)
However, it sounds like you’re saying that you’ve evaluated the options and concluded that the risk to yourself from Covid is less than risks from the vaccine?
I think I’m in the camp that thinks the risk to myself from Covid is very small… but will take the vaccine as soon as it’s my turn, because of all the people who can’t take the vaccine, or are still at risk even after having the vaccine (including friends and family). Do I think less of perfectly healthy people who selfishly refuse the vaccine out of a combination of misplaced fear and self interest, putting other at risk? Yes. Am I angry with them? No. If anyone I considered a friend took this position, and wouldn’t reconsider after talking about it, I’d be very disappointed. Angry? No. Sad? Yes.
As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I’ve done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
You can’t say that it’s safe, that will not be known for years and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
You realise that BS is straight out of the anti-vaxxer/conspiracy theory nutjob playbook?
Hopefully there are enough rational people out there taking the vaccines to prevent another 125,000 deaths, our hospitals looking like warzones and our economy tanking.
@kelvin puts it perfectly, couldn't agree more. Though I'm terrified of long Covid, so also really want it from a personal point of view as well.
Hopefully, at 39, by the end of May if you believe some of the current reports.
Let’s hear what CG has to say first as to why she doesn’t want the vaccine before the pitchfork sharpening starts...
Hear her arguments & judge it on its merits.
As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I’ve done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
You can’t say that it’s safe, that will not be known for years and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
So -
1. Its OK for others to be experimented on but not you? Nice and selfish of you.
2. You're right there might be something that isn't known till many years down the line, let's scrap all the vaccines on that risk based approach and see where that gets the world.
Let’s hear what CG has to say first as to why she doesn’t want the vaccine before the pitchfork sharpening starts…
Hear her arguments & judge it on its merits.
This seems fair. Though given the tone of the language she's facing I can see why she might not want to.
... or perhaps it’s just that her arguments won’t stand up to any rational analysis.
We can only go on what’s been said…
You can’t say that it’s safe
We can. It’s been tested.
that will not be known for years
How many millions of people need to receive the vaccine safely to allay this fear?
and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
That sounds suspiciously like conspiracy theory nonsense, no? How would any serious adverse effects of a worldwide mass vaccination programme be kept from us?
How many millions of people need to receive the vaccine safely to allay this fear?
I think what was meant is complications that only manifest themselves after x number of years or whatever.
I'd also be interested to see a credible case against taking a vaccine, if there is a real risk then it should be an ethical duty to make that case.
As things stand, I assume some sort of theoretical risk but I'm willing to accept that on the balance of probability that it will mitigate a very proven risk to others. As much an ethical position as anything.
That sounds suspiciously like conspiracy theory nonsense, no? How would any serious adverse effects of a worldwide mass vaccination programme be kept from us?
😂 yeah i was wondering the same. Maybe the microchips will programme us all not to speak out or something?
Though given the tone of the language she’s facing I can see why she might not want to.
In fairness, her introduction to the debate was to call me a prick so she can hardly complain about the negative tones 😂
Anyhow.. I too am intrigued to hear her rational...
How would any serious adverse effects of a worldwide mass vaccination programme be kept from us?
Simple. The New World Order led by the Rothchilds, Bill Gates and the Lizard People from the Hollow Earth will suppress it with thought control through the 5g network
I think what was meant is complications that only manifest themselves after x number of years or whatever.
A fair concern, though I think TiRed has done his best to address this.
As things stand, I assume some sort of theoretical risk but I’m willing to accept that on the balance of probability that it will mitigate a very proven risk to others. As much an ethical position as anything.
Until someone can give me scientific evidence to the contrary, that's my position.
That sounds suspiciously like conspiracy theory nonsense
Kind of undermines my intention to try and give the benefit of the doubt
As things stand, I assume some sort of theoretical risk but I’m willing to accept that on the balance of probability that it will mitigate a very proven risk to others. As much an ethical position as anything.
Pretty much this actually. There is a very small theoretical risk, but no more than any other vaccine I've ever had. The pros to both me and society far outweigh the risk
I don't think people should be compelled to get vaccinated tbf, but I think they are Pretty stupid not to without good reason. What I do have an issue with is folks spreading lies online about the vaccine that discourages others from getting it. I'm not referring to CG here..but it's obviously an issue.
CG, I've defended yours and other's rights to a different opinion and I will again here. I've taken some alternate views on here as well, at times.
But you need to come with a case, and listen to the counter arguments. I've done my reading doesn't cut it.
I will defend anyone’s right not to accept the vaccine. But I will say this. Everyone will most likely catch SARS-CoV-2 eventually. I’m in no doubt of that. This will take a few years to settle into a seasonal cycle, but we’ve seen reinfection already in a small number of highly exposed healthcare workers.
We do not know the long term sequela of infection, but there are instances of long-term morbidity on a fraction. We don’t know the extent of that morbidity. It’s been a grim year for myself, but one swallow is not a summer. I personally would have welcomed any intervention that redu Ed my own morbidity at the time of my infection.
ALL medical interventions are given on the basis of benefit and risk. I believe the data shows that the benefits outweigh the risks. Regulatory agencies have come to the same conclusion (and the data is available for your own reading). But you can’t say that a vaccine is safe. We can only infer with greater confidence that the intervention is not unsafe. And for some, the benefit, come infection time, will outweigh the risk.
It’s a little like bicycle helmets. For most riding, they add little. For the occasional off, you’ll be glad you had one. Everyone falls off eventually. Most have little consequence. A friend died on an innocuous fall without one. I put mine into the side of a 4x4 at 20mph. Both actually rare events. I was glad of it. For me the vaccine is the same.
CG "I'm not an anti vaxxer"
Also CG "I will not have the Covid vaccine, I've done my research and it can't be proved to be safe".
Erm, your 'research' is bollox, you're an anti vaxxer....get in the sea, so that the rest of us might be able to recover our livelihoods eh. Prick.
No-one should be bullied into having a medical intervention against their will. Thankfully uptake seems sufficiently high that it is clear these viewpoints are very much in the margins, and the consequences, if any, will be generally restricted to those making those choices. Which is obviously something they've considered and accepted.
Of course, if those people try to persuade others to do the same, especially on here, then they can expect their reasoning to come under some robust scrutiny.
Thankfully uptake seems sufficiently high that it is clear these viewpoints are very much in the margins, and the consequences, if any, will be generally restricted to those making those choices.
Every time the BBC or Sky news post a youtube vid about COVID 19 or vaccination the comments section is a cesspool of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers or conspiracy theory nutjobs. Even if half the comments are trolls or posted by Russian bot farms that leaves an awful lot of idiots with "marginal" viewpoints out there who can influence the easily led.
Generally I'm a libertarian and I say do what you want as long as you are prepared to accept the consequences and it doesn't harm anyone else. Get cancer and prefer to treat it with a wacky diet and positive thinking (Steve Jobs anyone) then fine. But when it comes to vaccination the consequence are not restricted to those making the choices and by not having the vaccination they are compromising the health of their fellow humans including me and my family so I'm going to call them out their BS
If you scroll back a number of pages you'll find a contribution by @batfink
You probably won't do that, so i will try to paraphrase.
You will have heard that the time it takes to bring a drug, like a vaccine, to market, is ten years minimum, right?
So if it takes 6 months it means that 'corners have been cut', right? It hasn't been properly tested, yes? You can't assume any long-term effects, obviously, right?
But where does the time go?
Usually it would take ten years for this vaccine to go from research to development to shots in the arm -
it could take 1-2 years (minimum) to convince the Company that this is worth putting time and resources into
Let's call that 1
Once Step 1 has been achieved it will take at least 1-2 years to get the doctors on board to find clinical subjects for trial
Let's call that 3
Once the doctors are in it will take 1-3 years to get enough willing participants to start a double blind trial
Let's call that 5
Once the doctors have managed to rope in, say, 5000 willing subjects, we now wait until we have achieved 100 infections across both groups - it is not massively virulent , so this could take a while
Let's call that 7
Now we need a regulatory body to look at our results
Let's call that - well what else are they looking at? Is it more important?
Here we are at 10 years!
Now look back at every step of the way in the middle of a Pandemic -
How long do you think it took for the go ahead at the Pharma Cos?
How long do you think it took to get doctors on board?
How long to get tens of thousands of trial participants?
How long to get virus challenge data across both groups?
How long for the regulatory agencies to pull the proverbial finger out?
In the middle of a pandemic?
The obvious answer to all of the above is not long - that's why it's been so quick. We are already in the midst of a massive trial of a mass vaccination program that has yielded more results in a few months than you could hope for in many, many years of a standard drug trial.
What, though, are the long term effects?
What are the long term effects of your TB jabs? Tetanus? Diptheria, Hep B, Polio and Whooping Cough? Your MMR?
Adulthood, is the long term effect of all your previous vaccinations - dotage the effect of this next one.
Every time the BBC or Sky news post a youtube vid about COVID 19 or vaccination the comments section is a cesspool of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers or conspiracy theory nutjobs. Even if half the comments are trolls or posted by Russian bot farms that leaves an awful lot of idiots with “marginal” viewpoints out there who can influence the easily led.
Zahawi claimed (I think) that the UK population is at 94% positive towards the vaccine or something along those lines. But 6% is still a lot of people especially when part of that 6% believes what they do for the reasons I've seen implied.
It’s a little like bicycle helmets. For most riding, they add little. For the occasional off, you’ll be glad you had one.
Dear God man, don't start that one again. Well be at rotational forces before you can cycle into a head height branch.
Ah, sorry @Tired. I got distracted by the dog in that last post and missed the second half of the paragraph and now too late too edit.
Genuine apologies.
Can I be clear that when - earlier in this thing - I suggested allaying the fears of those who have doubts about taking up the vaccine, I was thinking largely of ethnic minorities and deprived communities who according to research are less receptive to vaccination rather than rabid conspiracty theorists.
That said, there's a level of anti-anti-vax frothing on this thread which is disappointing. Somewhere is the line where you accept that no matter how much you disagree with people's opinions, you have to step back and think about what sort of society you want to live in and whether it's one where you force people to allow medical interventions against their will.
If the number of people not being vaccinated endangered society as a whole then it's arguably a different situation, but I'm not sure it is atm. Vaccination doesn't need 100% take-up to be effective, if it did, it would never work.
Anyway, I'm off to be vaccinated this morning after probably the most miserable year of my life. Trust me, if I could have been vaccinated 12 months ago and missed out on 12 months of long covid, I'd have bitten your arm off and eaten it.
Erm, your ‘research’ is bollox, you’re an anti vaxxer….get in the sea, so that the rest of us might be able to recover our livelihoods eh. Prick.
If you can't deal with an opposing view without resorting to insults, can you go and do it somewhere else please.
The experts tell us it’s safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk’s vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it’s safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they’ve read online and very little scientific understanding.
In any period of history, there will be some high profile, super smart, arrogant expert(s) with a massive ego shouting loudly about some medical intervention which they proclaim to be the only way forward.
They may or may not be profiting financially, but often just the ego massage is enough.
Some time later, the truth comes out and the people who spoke out against said experts but were shouted down as deniers are shown to have been right all along.
I mean, if you are prescribed a particular brain treatment by Dr Freeman, Yale educated, Neuropathology PHD director of neurology, himself mentored by a Nobel prize winner - then who are you to argue?
A healthy distrust of experts is perfectly understandable imo. There are several people in the past few pages of this thread showing themselves as pricks, but CG is not one of them.
I've personally seen some really nasty reactions to the vaccine. I'll take it myself when it's offered, but would be happy not to if my name was left off the list somehow.
MCTD, CG was the one whose opening gambit was to call someone a prick! The problems with uptake in some BAME communities is a real problem for us as a society for a multitude of reasons, and does need addressing.
However, people saying that they've done their own research and don't want the vaccine because it isn't safe, should quite frankly either STFU or take that opinion elsewhere.
However, people saying that they’ve done their own research and don’t want the vaccine because it isn’t safe, should quite frankly either STFU or take that opinion elsewhere.
No, they should have the courage of their convictions to share their understanding of what they have read, without fear of being instantly being ridiculed and humiliated.
Bedmaker - I don't know what nasty reactions you've personally seen to this vaccine, there surely is no comparison to the nasty mental health problems our nhs staff are having to go through, the everyday uncomfortable working environment of having to wear full ppe, not being able to drink or eat properly (nevery mind visiting aloo), the awfulness of telling loved ones over the phone that their relative have died from covid (in some cases a horrible death).
Yes I agree that we in this country have the freedom to say 'no', however imo it's foolish.
I’ve personally seen some really nasty reactions to the vaccine. I’ll take it myself when it’s offered, but would be happy not to if my name was left off the list somehow.
It will be offered to you at some point. It depends what you mean by 'really nasty reactions' - life-threatening anaphylaxis or just generally feeling like shite for a few days? Most people who have suffered some form of Long Covid would be of the view that the latter would be infinitely preferable.
You'd expect a small number of serious reactions to any vaccine, and we have given it to 24 million people so far, in the context of a pandemic that his so far killed well over 100,000. The safety profile of both main jabs appears to be pretty decent.
https://www.ft.com/content/68a26565-6de1-44db-8569-50b64b20385a
CG.. has a belief it's not safe.
This is not necessarily based on fact or evidence. Some people believe in God. Quite often people believe something and no matter the facts or evidence that may say otherwise.. will stick by it.