[Closed] What's your favourite conspiracy theory?

There's one thing I really like about conspiracy theorists... They look for multiple pieces of evidence that they think contradict the official line, but they rarely care whether those pieces of evidence contradict each other. For example:

Controlled demolition using thermite- not explosives, because there were no visible or audible blasts.
Seismic charts which people say indicates explosions.

Have a little read up of stuff then it might be a little clearer to you.

Basic thermite preparations can be modified and augmented in various ways to change their properties. The fineness of the aluminum powder determines the speed of the reaction. The use of ultra-fine aluminum powder gives the reaction an [b]explosive[/b] quality, resulting in 'super-thermites'.

🙂

What I love about 'conspiracy theorist debunkers' is that they often ignore lots of stuff to try and seem all clever and that. 😉

No they don't! Look at any video of the fall, the debris that falls clear of the building falls faster than the main structure, and the main structure takes considerably longer than freefalling would have taken.

Maybe you had your playback on slow-mo: the towers all fell at a considerable speed, and according to many demolition experts, in exactly the same manner to a controlled demolition....

How long will this argument rage for? Several days? Weeks? Months? Years?

Until the Real Truth comes out?

Northwind i must admit it does annoy me that folks are labelled conspiracy theorists in such ways.

i grew up in the 80s with a thatcher and reagan hating father lol! But i kinda thought americans were the saviours of the free world. america to me was everything good about the world. as i got older i read more and discovered that the uk and - post ww2 - america were responsible for not only a lot of good in the world but also a depressingly amount of bad.

To study post ww2 american history in terms of foreign policy is eye ipening in the extreme. from italy in 1947/8 through to central and southern america in the 50s through the 80s to south east asia. not to mention abuses domestically via cia black operations which are now undisputed matters of fact i.e. Mk ultra, bioligical and chemical experimentation on unsuspecting civilian populations.

The last 50 years of american expansionism has been fascistic to the extreme. it is logical to think that, no matter how abhorrent a regime, the americans could never attack their own people as it goes against all tenets of freedom, liberty, democracy - the american dream. however, is it not a fair statement to say that subsequent generations move things on in relation to the actions and behaviours of their predecessors? I.e. In the 50s and 60s the right wing of american foreign policy considered how the shooting down - or mock shooting down of an american passenger liner over the gulf of mexico would validate an invasion of cuba in order to protect america and consolidate power abroad i.e. Get rid of comrade castro. perhaps a step too far for even those policy makers. fast forward 40 years. Times change? who knows but viewed in light of the publicised strategies of PNAC could fact be stranger than fiction??

grantus - Member
But when you see the likes of rumsfeld and cheney - these to me are wicked, unfeeling people. Not a flicker of emotion on them.

This entire thread is worth it just for that statement. You have my complete support on that one, grantus.

To be honest, i have, like everyone else, must have seen the collapse hundreds of times and i have nevr seen a video which shows anything other than virtual freefall of those structures.

Those poor people - i only hope it was bloody quick for them 🙁

How come Grantus is not being subjected to the kind of vitriolic crap I was earlier in this thread? 😕

Izzit becoz I iz Elf?

😥

It will rage for ever elfin because facts dont sway those who believe in the conspiracy and look for its evidence everywhere.
Could they have done it ?Possibly
Could they have done it without anyone in the know saying anything? Less likely
Would they do it? Even less likely.

Occam's razor put this hypothesis on pretty weak ground tbh and the evidence to prove it is less than overwhelming.

Would they do it? Even less likely.

Really?

Why?

FFS.....

Elfinsafety - Member
Have a little read up of stuff then it might be a little clearer to you.

Fraid not... The seismic traces are said to be proof of large explosions. Fast thermite is not the same thing- having "an explosive quantity" doesn't turn thermite into a large-scale conventional high explosive. And the reason the theorists were so enamoured of thermite in the [i]first[/i] place was specifically that it got around the awkward lack of large explosions.

You can have exploding thermite, but you can't have exploding thermite and no explosions. If you actually [i]want[/i] an explosion, you wouldn't use thermite at all.

Elfinsafety - Member

Maybe you had your playback on slow-mo: the towers all fell at a considerable speed,

Slow-mo footage wouldn't cause some debris to fall faster than others now would it? Try harder.

Most conspiracy theories are at least plausible, but this one doesn't stand up to even casual examination, it's just pure misinformation.

No come on Flashy, don't just come on and say 'FFS'; say what [i]you[/i] really think.

Come on, don't be shy...

Northwind; so, you're an explosives expert now? 😆

Behave yourself. Seriously. Look how much effort you're putting into 'proving' the 'conspiracy theories' wrong. Yet you're actually proving nothing.

Waffle wibble blah blah bullshit please believe me.....

Elfin is cos you is black and smoked the ganja then hid it from the police with your white friend!!! - i saw you admit it on another thread lol! - or am i confusing you with ernie lynch??

i confusing you with ernie lynch

Cheeky git.

I am not black, I am brown. 😐

I cannot possibly comment about the Ganja. Suffice to say that Babylon Dem is no capture de Elf.

😆

No, it's cos I'm always right on this forum, and the wrong-uns can't handle that. 😀

It's as simple as that.

Elfinsafety - Member

Northwind; so, you're an explosives expert now?

Nope, I can merely read and think 😉 You don't need to know much to see through the feebleness of some of this. And TBH I don't think you believe most of it, if any.

For your free-falling building to be true, the genuinely free-falling debris must have fallen faster than gravity. Rocket assist? Elastic bands? You don't need to know a thing about explosions or buildings to see through the nonsense, you just need eyes, and the ability to count past 9 seconds.

As for proving- I've not proved anything. I'm out to debunk nonsense. It's conceivable that some of the theories are true, but many aren't (and some contradict each other).

Grantus- no offence but you're seeing what you want to see. Time it out, watch the debunk videos (with a cynical eye!), look at the free-falling debris. It's a lie.

Saxonrider, unfortunately it seems to be an inbuilt trait of our western politicians.

I do believe gordon brown and john major were/are decent men. Blair and thatcher - 2 peas in a pod.
As for usa, obama and mccain i both think are honest men. God forbid what happens after obama has to stand down.

Mccain will be too old - palin!!??!!

For your free-falling building to be true, the genuinely free-falling debris must have fallen faster than gravity. Rocket assist? Elastic bands? You don't need to know a thing about explosions or buildings to see through the nonsense, you just need eyes, and the ability to count past 9 seconds.

Grantus- no offence but you're seeing what you want to see. Time it out, watch the debunk videos (with a cynical eye!), look at the free-falling debris. It's a lie.

This ^ x 100000000000000000000000000000

Because it's very complicated, would have to involve an awful lot of people, and seems to involve previously unknown levels of competence and, at the same time, seemingly massive clues that all is not as it seems.

It's one thing to believe they [i]would[/i] do it, but it's another to believe they actually [i]did[/i] do it in this particular case, with the demolition, missiles and all the rest of it. The things they would have to have pulled off just aren't very plausible.

Ooh look. 'Internet Experts' trying desperately to prove stuff they don't actually have a clue about. 😆

You guys, you guys kill me with your funny!

Carry on though, it's very entertaining.

Toys; are you going to lose it and resort to personal abuse tonight, like you did last night? cos that was well funny, you losing it like that. Go on, do it again! 😀

Would they do it? Even less likely.
Really?

Why?

I think if Bush/America/Hawks/Lizzard people whomever wanted to go to war there are far easier ways to do it than 9/11 . Blair did all this with just a sexed up dossier. Now whilst Bush is a bit dumb I think even he and his aides could come up with a plan that did not involve attacking his own country with planes.
Occams razor unless you can provide some overwhelming proof.

Why are you goading like that fred ? You get annoyed with Cpt, stoner and others when they do it to you ...poor form IMHO.

Elf, with everything I post I consider very carefully what I write. You are a massive troll, and I get lots of pleasure out of telling you so and exposing your mornic inanity. If I met you in the pub and you behaved the same way, I'd still be very happy to tell you exactly what I think of you. Perhaps we should arrange it.

edit: JY do you actually expect anything less from elf? He doesnt come here to contribute, he comes to preen. I expect he is kissing himself right now.

Elf, with everything I post I consider very carefully what I write. You are a massive troll, and I get lots of pleasure out of telling you so and exposing your mornic inanity. If I met you in the pub and you behaved the same way, I'd still be very happy to tell you exactly what I think of you. Perhaps we should arrange it.

😆

You funny, funny guy...

Shh now; Beverly Hills Cop 3 is on.

Shh now; Beverly Hills Cop 3 is on.

They made a third?!? 😛

Elfinsafety - Member

Ooh look. 'Internet Experts' trying desperately to prove stuff they don't actually have a clue about

What... Gravity? Counting to 9 seconds? It's not all [i]that[/i] complicated 😉

Sad fact is, many conspiracy theories are so weak, they don't need any specialist knowledge at all to disprove.

Northwind, i don't understand what you mean about freefall being faster than gravity? my understanding of freefall is 120mph before air friction stops velocity increasing any further?

Think we are probs going round in circles - toys i read one of your links which refers to engineer mt robertson 'allegedly' claiming he carried out jet liner impact scenario calculations.

Part of me thinks why would they have reason to doubt him but the devil's advocate says that he has vested interest to defend his design.

Peace out.

refers to engineer mt robertson 'allegedly' claiming he carried out jet liner impact scenario calculations.

Firstly, I think that is your interpretation of it, which without wanting to appear rude, might seem paranoid? I think they just state that he claimed he did the analysis, but couldn't provide any proof, ergo nobody knows if he did it or what the analysis assumptions were. Just seems like a statement of facts really. Given that he didnt provide any docs I dunno how the troothers can campaign that the buildings were designed to withstand whatever, as there isn't any evidence they were. They guys memory might be shot and he could have confused the work he did 30 odd years ago with work on another building or any number of other scenarios..

Secondly freefall terminal velocity is dependant on the air resistance of the object, apparantly a peregrine can freefall up to 200mph because of its aerodynamic shape in the dive. The 120mph I think is a number applied to humans falling. I actually think that bits of the wtc would have varying terminal velocities.

What northwind is saying quite eloquently is that the outer facade of the building and other bits ejected as it falls are falling much faster than the main body of the building. Now as these are falling through free air with no other bits of building to crash into on the way one can safely assume that they are under freefall and will accellerate at 9.8 m/s (or your rounded up 10 m/s) so given that the main body is obviously going slower, it cannot be at freefall, as the other bits we have already proven are at freefall. Therefore the freefall thing is a fallacy.

Yes i'm sure someone will have timed it somewhere and perhaps it is all about visual perception i.e. The use of the term freefall may not be strictly true even though the falling buildings gave that impression. i acknowledge as well that mr robertson is not impartial as it is his design and what could be worse than thinking was there something he could have built into his design a bit better in 1966 that may have saved lives 30+ years later even though any logical person could not blame him in any way but the human mind does not always work in a logical fashion.

Fwiw i do believe that mr robertson carried out the calculations he said he did however of course there is nothing for me to back this up with other than a gut feeling.

Also, i accept that calculations on paper may not reflect what happens in practice when a once in a millenium event happens in real life. notwithstanding, i cant't accept the identical collapse pattern for both towers.

Common sense dictates that the different strike patterns would have caused different trauma to each structure and therefore i would expect them to react in different ways as a result - but they plunged straight down like no other strucutre in history.

Thanks for the debate however as it is genuinely interesting

grantus if nyou watch any of the collapse videos you will see the parts of the core still standing at the end quivering for a bit and then falling. The twin towers had this core up the middle and each floor was bolted on like a ring, a donut, so as the mass of the floors above hit the floors below they broke the floor connections to the core and down they go. So you could argue that the core guided the pancakes down to a degree. The other thing is that once a mass that great is going in one direction then you are goign to need a big force to deflect it off its direction, its going down only.

Common sense dictates that the different strike patterns would have caused different trauma to each structure and therefore i would expect them to react in different ways as a result

but they plunged straight down like no other strucutre in history.

grantus - Member

Northwind, i don't understand what you mean about freefall being faster than gravity?

Freefall isn't. What I'm saying is that in the sequences of the towers falling, you can see genuine freefalling debris- the stuff that falls away from the towers. And when you watch the towers themselves, they've clearly not falling as fast. So either the towers are being dramatically slowed down (they take at the very least 50% longer than claimed, after which they get obscured by dust), or the other freefalling stuff is falling faster than freefall.

grantus - Member

i cant't accept the identical collapse pattern for both towers.

But why on earth not? Surely that's the most likely outcome? The detail is different but the end result was always going to be the same- layer burns out and weakens, top falls onto bottom and knocks it downwards.

toys i cant disagree with your logic but to take it right back, other explanations i have read also seem logical.

junkyard that would be silly. although, it would definitley provide evidence - perhaps not what you expect though.

i'm out.

Yes, I am unfamiliar with the location of the Pentagon,other than it is in Washington DC. Obviously makes me a nutter lol!...you just picked up on the fact I don't know the precise location of the pentagon to dismiss me as a crank!

Can't quote exact figures but one of the biggest problems of going to Mars is shielding the astronauts from radiation.Think it needs 9 inches of aluminium.
So it's quite surprising that the men on the moon were quite safe with a relatively thin suit.Radiation on the moon is pretty extreme.
Looking at the facts I would say it's unlikely we have been to the moon but I am sure the Russians wouldn't be in on the conspiracy.

I saw someone mention dr david kelly - defo think the man was murdered.

Never heard the robin cook one before.

One i read was german immigrants to usa post ww2 being recruited to the republican party to garner suport in the large ethnic german communities in the us. people who had been active in the nazi party.

A sporting conspiracy is maradona claimed his positive dope test in 1994 was orchestrated by fifa because he had been so critical of them in the past.

here's a good one i saw earlier in this thread! wtc7 collapsed after fires burned out of control all day and caused structural failure of the steel.

this, however, is easy to debunk. pictures of wtc7 before and during the collapse show no signs of major fire. no major smoke or flames billowing from the building, glass intact. fires intense enough to melt steel will blow out the glass long before the steel fails.

if fires had burned for 9 hours in that building it would have been like the towering inferno.

But what do i know? I dont know where the pentagon is lol! 😉

It is impossible to refute your claims without reference to sources which you will claim are part of the conspiracy.

It is pointless Fisking conspiracy theorists' claims because they simply never address or accept any disproved claims but just wheel out something new.

konabunny, its a great way to find people to put on Buzz Aldrins list though.

That the NHS is being privatised...

That the lockerbie bomb was placed on the plane by the CIA, believing that they were smuggling drugs in order to pay for information. Which is quite ridiculous the CIA would never have dealt with the Libyan secret services 😕

The arguments about the events of the day about 9/11 actually distract from the very real issues of the event.

1, the actions of the west (supporting oppressive regimes in the middle east) therefore creating such hatred.
2, The abuse of the events to start wars for profits, to remove personal freedoms within western states, and generally to distract attention from the very real dangers that greed and elitist wealth was/is creating within our societies.

There is also perhaps a hint of what the intelligence services may have known beforehand, and may have been able to prevent, but that is more likely to fall under the auspice of incompetence than conspiracy.

re. the wtc7 - my sources are pictures that are readily available on line - there is no sign of out of control fire which has burned for 8 hours.

Re. the Lockerbie one - I have read that one - that a top ranking CIA official was on that flight heading for Washington to blow the whistle on drug smuggling by the Assads of Syria with the co-operation of CIA rougue elements to fund black operations. Hence allegations of a helicopter arriving from Machrihanish within an hour of the crash and agents scouring the debris and removing a briefcase which contained incriminating evidence.

I prefer to believe it was Iranian revenge for the shooting down of their passenger airliner in 1986 by US fighter jets and carried out by the PLO.

Yitzhak Rabin is another interesting one

the actions of the west (supporting oppressive regimes in the middle east) therefore creating such hatred.

Essentially what you are doing is saying that the hijackers etc were motivated by their disagreements with US foreign policy and were also in some way representative of a wider dissatisfaction and hatred. (I am not suggesting that you are suggesting that the methods are merely "regrettable" or anything, don't get me wrong).

But really that ignores the underlying irrationality and scumbagginess of Bin Laden, and obscures the fact that Bush v Bin Laden was (inter alia) a struggle between two egomaniacal fundamentalist millionaires. Neither was motivated by genuine concern for those they claimed to represent. If it hadn't been US foreign policy, it would have been something else that OBL espoused (the re-establishment of the ummah, for example) and would have been his project.

That is to say, there are many, many reasons why US/NATO foreign policy can be legitimately criticised, but the fact that it alienated OBL and his henchmen is not one of them. You can negotiate with terrorists but not with mentalists.

Apologies if I am misconstruing what you are saying - I realise this is an emotive topic and I am not trying to flame you.

my take on the lockerbie crash is, was there a bomb at all ? the whole incident is very similar to [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 ]twa flight 800[/url]

my take on the lockerbie crash is, was there a bomb at all ? the whole incident is very similar to twa flight 800

Nah, it was some bloke from Libya. C'mon people, how can you not believe Alex Salmond?

I think this overstates the rationality of Bin Laden and the hijackers, and buys into the "they hate us for our freedoms" concept.

They don't hate "us" for our freedoms, they hate us for their lack of freedoms, for the regimes we supported that gave them no freedom.

Can anyone list a war worth having after ww 2? They all seem to benefit people who already have alot of money and want more.
Lets not forget the picture of Tory bLiar shaking Gadaffis hand.
Oppose all war, blowing peoples kids up is not a way to make them like you.
When the SAS shot the IRA on Gibraltar i felt like we had won the world cup. At one of the funerals for the ira some idiot threw a grenade into the mourners. This lead to more dead and later on 2 squaddies took a wrong turn into the funeral procession for one of the dead.
They were dragged from the car and beaten to death.
It all goes around and bites you back in the end.
Look at China they practically own Africa and all its resources without a shot being fired. Not holding them up as moral examples but they seem a bit cleverer than us .