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Stolen from twitter:
In all the briefings about the spy poisoning from the Government, why no updates on the search for the individuals who carried out the attack and their chemicals stash?You know the usual sort of thing that goes on after a serious crime. And, why no media questions about this?
Of course, there could be plausible explanations, but questions need asking...
The bloke from Russia Today on Question Time has got a proper Goodfellas air about him.
its funny watching Kier Starmer trying to get over the fact that he’s working under some myopic ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ fruitloop for a leader
Not watched RT but I could imagine he's RT's Paxman/Kyle cross.
Jivehoney, perhaps they don't have suspect individuals yet or perhaps they don't want to divulge for the same reason they don't when dealing with large terror cells.
Also, interesting and well made post Zokes. Food for thought, are any chemistry journals weighing in? The ones I posted seemed fairlyfcinvinced. Your poat makes me think that they might have perhaps found something in the investigation (eg unused substance) which they have only divulged with Nato today.
there could be plausible explanations
is it that spies are good at hiding ? I guess this is too obvious for you. I cannot quite work out how to get Jimmy saville and prince phillip in the answer but i cannot wait for your effort
Food for thought, are any chemistry journals weighing in?
Not that I'm aware of, and I should add that I'm more an ecologist and biogeochemist than an analytical chemist or forensic scientist. However, as odd as it sounds we do actually use the same tools in the lab, just for quite different purposes (like trying to work out what are the main constituents of complex organic matter in soils, and where it comes from). For example, the exact same isotope ratio mass spec we have in our lab is also used to prove that testosterone in athletes is / isn't doping: synthetic testosterone carries a different isotopic signature to that produced by the body. Indeed, the engineer from the supplier is helping set up the labs for the Commonwealth Games at the moment. I just find this stuff fascinating.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">ivehoneyjive
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">People are nuts… the more I learn of human nature, the more I wonder what hope there is for our long term survival in the distorted world that’s been created around us.
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Yawning Irony Award Post Of The Month.
The bloke from Russia Today on Question Time has got a proper Goodfellas air about him.
Alex Salmond's 'talk show' * on RT last night was a jaw-dropping exercise in how easily your dignity and integrity can be jettisoned when someone starts waving banknotes at you (OK, we had a fair idea that this was the case with Salmond when Trump came to town a few years back.) Ended with a irony-rich spiel on freedom of speech, presumably aimed at the threats to take RT off the air via Ofcom.
*parade of pro-Kremlin apologists.
on RT last night was a jaw-dropping exercise in how easily your dignity and integrity can be jettisoned when someone starts waving banknotes at you.
much like the UK and the Saudis then.
By far the most obvious line of enquiry is that the daughter carried it (presumably unwittingly) and the murderers never entered the country.
Jezzas busy making sure he doesn't come as scarily close to being PM as he did last time
Putin must be laughing his tits off! He's running rings around everyone, like he has been doing for years
Strange one this - the NATO GenSec was on R4 earlier and he too was 'convinced' that it was Russia, no other credible explanation, etc. Clearly they know stuff that we don't because I can think of several other explanations that could be credible based on the facts we have.
And I understand why they can't share these widely, but then that leads to the 'trust us, we just know' kind of position we are in.
Because given the events of the last 1,2, 5, 10 etc. years - from WMD to Brexit the one thing I think most of us agree on, is that they can't be trusted.
Yet what else can we do?
Interesting that BBC news has just realised there’s a conflict going on in Syria. They’re showing the Russian/Assad shelling of civilians
Who knows, maybe at some point they'll spot that our pals the Turks are doing the same in Afrin. And as for Yemen ...
Putin must be laughing his tits off!
You say that, but Gavin Williamson told him to "go away and shut up", so I'm sure he is quaking in a cupboard in his dacha.
It's a bit worrying when we have a defence sec who makes Michael Fallon look like some kind of statesman.
Putin must be laughing his tits off! He’s running rings around everyone, like he has been doing for years
The trouble is, his gain is in cementing his own power in Russia, but he is damaging the world, and Russians are suffering the most from his actions. It is always assumed that he is a strong and powerful leader running rings round everyone else, but at the back of my mind I wonder if he is just a Trump like ego blundering his way through power, and lucking out.
When Corbyn comes over as the voice of reason the others really have got themselves into a tizzy.
Trump now admitting Russian intervention in his own electoral victory and media recognition that Hilary suffered Russian sabotage. Time for a new election in the US.
Do you see Trump bowing out because the Americans can't effectively deal with the Russians whilst he is in power? Due to something the Russians have on him?
Zokes, it's been a long long time since I studied biochemistry, I've spent most of my time since graduating in QA, whilst my degree was quite clinically focused. Any ideas on the decontamination routine for this? Because a few arrsers are saying that the usual "hose it down with water" routine isn't going to cut if for this, also the borderline sub-clinical effects can last for a lifetime. The sheer potency would make me worried about the effectiveness of any decontamination procedure to be honest.
well if we apply the same logic as the government, then the UK assassinated Kim Jong Nam in 2017 via the use if the Binary Agent VX as that is one that we invented, therefore it must have been us?!
Tazzy, I suspect that they used a variant of Novichok that has only been manufactured in Russia post the collapse of the Iron curtain. (Binary Novichok-7 has been mentioned, as that was produced in '93 supposedly).
Then there is the possibility that it may have actually entered the UK in the suitcase of the daughter....
At the end of the day, you are supporting and giving credibility to the Russians of all people over your own government, which I find hilarious - even with the history of the WMD dossier. Do you really think the intelligence agencies and one of the most respected NBC defence research centres in the world want to lose their international reputation again?
problem is that the chap that invented Novichok has been in america since 1996 when he defected, so its not like the information is only in one location. Its all a bit too clear cut and "sexed up WMD dossier" at the moment ready to give May her Falklands moment and distract form the brexit cock ups and stripping of funding for school dinners etc... its a good time to bury bad news.
One of the chaps involved, in producing some of the variants.
So you are suggesting that actually, this is a CIA hit and the Americans smuggled Novichok into Russia, to stick in the suitcase of some random intelligence agents daughter and cause collateral damage in one of their allies cities. Riiiiiighht.
Do you think that we'd be supplying the OPCW with samples and access to our labs if we were lying?
so British VX was used, but it wasn't us, yet Novichok was used but it can only be the Russian State? see! that logic is bollocks. It may well be the Russian state has committed a war crime on UK soil, but without fully transparent and independently Verified data what we have at the moment is a classic piece of cold-war propaganda. The Press love a good story and will run with the simplest easy to sell copy, rather than the truth that is usually a murkier and dirty mix where no one can come out as a clear goody and baddy.
Because that means that some other country, with an axe to grind, would have had to develop their own research program and intelligence program to firstly 1) Steal the Russian nerve agent so that they knew which variant the Russians use and then 2) Copy it exactly. All without someone spotting it.
This isn't VX, there are hundreds of potential variants of Novichok.
Occams Razor etc etc etc
What isn't independent about getting the OPCW involved?
So you are suggesting that actually, this is a CIA hit and the Americans smuggled Novichok into Russia, to stick in the suitcase of some random intelligence agents daughter and cause collateral damage in one of their allies cities. Riiiiiighht.
I'm suggesting nothing of the sort, just that its not a clear cut as the damn Ruskies did it lets all get a hard-on for another cold war. There hasn't been a single case of the British Government of either major party, knee jerking into an escalation or military action or invasion that has hasn't later been proved to have been based on "tweaked" or just plain bollocks information. What makes you think that they have suddenly found a clarity not demonstrated in last 40 years or so?
Again, if we were going to tweak the intelligence would we not be refusing to get the OPCW involved?
This isn’t VX, there are hundreds of potential variants of Novichok.
there are multiple variant of the V series agent as well. see again its not a case of Cinderella where on one shoe will fit a special little foot.
Im not saying its not Russia, but lets not get stampeded into a escalation without making sure that its not bollocks. Why the bloody hell are we spending a fortune with anti anthrax jabs for the armed forces? thats just pure theater and Gavin Williamson quoted the main worry as being attack from North Korea WTAF?
there are multiple variant of the V series agent as well. see again its not a case of Cinderella where on one shoe will fit a special little foot.
All of which are documented and in the public domain of knowledge, especially the one that was used to off the Korean.
Why the bloody hell are we spending a fortune with anti anthrax jabs for the armed forces? thats just pure theater and Gavin Williamson quoted the main worry as being attack from North Korea WTAF?
Because anthrax is one of the easiest bioterror weapons to produce?
Again, if we were going to tweak the intelligence would we not be refusing to get the OPCW involved?
and yet we've already let the genie out of the bottle and declared its Russia, without waiting for independent verification, see its political theater rather than expedient diplomacy
and yet we’ve already let the genie out of the bottle and declared its Russia, without waiting for independent verification, see its political theater rather than expedient diplomacy
Because by the time the OPCW get done with their side of the investigation, considering all of their bureaucracy, the momentum will have been lost to get action and support from our partners.
No one will give a shit in 1 month, let alone however long it takes the OPCW to get back to us.
And what is so bad about escalating with Russia anyway, they've been acting like a rogue state for the past decade.
I don't mean to seem overly cautious..
but with all the talk of May's promised team of social media manipulators recently, isn't it a little bit fishy that suddenly we have a new forum member in our midst with a deep knowledge of nerve agents, crowing for all he's worth about the Russians being baddies?
back to covert 101 for you spybot!!
Much a I dislike May, I find her take on events a bit more believable than a bunch of internet consipracy theorists
Either this was a direct act by the Russian State against our country.
Or conceivably, the Russian government could have lost control of a military-grade nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others.
Either the Russians are murderous or incompetent.
Jezzas busy making sure he doesn’t come as scarily close to being PM as he did last time
I read that piece. He says we should investigate and await the outcome based on actual evidence before taking any action which could be damaging. Bloody outrageous! Or perhaps he should jump on the jingoistic bandwagon of faux-outrage and start banging his war-drum?
Thing is, even if they did do it, what are we gonna do? We certainly aren't going to kick out Putin's billionaire mates or refuse the money they bring in, so instead we'll get rid of some minor ranking diplomats and engage in a 'who's the hardest' pissing competition which we'll inevitably lose. Schoolyard posturing pretending to be geopolitics. It's pretty pathetic.
About the closest I ever got to sneaky stuff was an interview at Pirbright, so no - I'm not.
My previous alias was killed off by the forum update.
We certainly aren’t going to kick out Putin’s billionaire mates or refuse the money they bring in
The thing with that is, is that they are usually in London because they are quite far from being Putins mate.
Because by the time the OPCW get done with their side of the investigation, considering all of their bureaucracy, the momentum will have been lost to get action and support from our partners.
No one will give a shit in 1 month, let alone however long it takes the OPCW to get back to us.
And what is so bad about escalating with Russia anyway, they’ve been acting like a rogue state for the past decade.
sounds more a regime change we're after then, with a not very firm footing which is why the government are running so quickly over the top of it. that went well last time
and with regards to anthrax, yes its dead easy to make, but why prepare our soldiers, are we already going to war with an unkown enemy where the BTWC will be breached?
I think if I'm being rational, I believe there IS other 'proof' that it was Russia which the authorities have shared with allies and NATO and is sufficient for them, but which they cannot / will not / have not shared with us.
But i also agree with Taz, it's not as if we've been whiter that white with regard to making up or sexing up other 'proof' in the past few years, so when they say trust us, I do have a bit of a 'yeah, but' moment.
and with regards to anthrax, yes its dead easy to make, but why prepare our soldiers, are we already going to war with an unkown enemy where the BTWC will be breached?
No, but who do you think will be first on scene to clear up if we suffer an anthrax terror attack like the Americans did in 2001?
The British government could sen whatever they like form whatever source to the OPCW. I don't trust the British government because the lot of them have shown themselves to be serial liars on so many other issues. When there is an independant inquiry with some people worthy of trust it gets put under wraps for 50 years (Kelly).
well we we'd better start with old videos about what to do in the case of nuclear war as well then, and then ban anyone with a funny eastern European accent and get that good old British tradition, the concentration camp back for anyone we think looks a bit "iffy in a famous five stylee"...hey at least it will give some of the plucky Brits employment after Brexit 🙂
The OCPW will likely be visiting the labs.
Knowing how hard it is to fraudulently trick the MHRA, I find your position pretty laughable to be honest Edukator. They seem to be doing all the right things in terms of international obligations, unlike during the Iraq debacle.
well we we’d better start with old videos about what to do in the case of nuclear war as well then, and then ban anyone with a funny eastern European accent and get that good old British tradition, the concentration camp back for anyone we think looks a bit “iffy in a famous five stylee”…hey at least it will give some of the plucky Brits employment after Brexit
Are you that blindly cynical that you don't think we should have emergency responders properly prepared? Shall we get rid of the bomb disposal teams whilst you're at it? Maybe get some hippy love circles going as well?
if we suffer an anthrax terror attack like the Americans did in 2001?
Everything went a bit quiet on that after the majority of evidence suggested it'd come from a US military installation...
Are you that blindly cynical that you don’t think we should have emergency responders properly prepared?
you show me a plausible imminent threat and I'll stow my cynicism, you jingoistic, war drum banging buffoon, bet you knock one out over photo of dear Maggie in her Argentine War ensemble dont you 😉
Was your previous log in Katie Hopkins? 🙂
you show me a plausible imminent threat and I’ll stow my cynicism, you jingoistic, war drum banging buffoon, bet you knock one out over photo of dear Maggie in her Argentine War ensemble dont you
You can go and find anthrax in the countryside, pretty sure you can't go looking for bombs unless you decide to go looking for UXBs. The use of anthrax has less to do with availability than it does imagination. CBRN was due a spending boost after the massive cuts to it.
Anyway
The use of anthrax has less to do with availability than it does imagination.
I know, I've worked in BSL 4 Labs as part of my job and have had to collect "suspect white powders" in the past as well.