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Because Russia has developed weapons of this type, and has a history of assassinating people it considers enemies, see eg litvinenko. And the daughter travelled from Russia just prior to the event which provides an obvious vector. Basically, it would be easy for russia to do it, and it’s the sort of thing they do.
See. Absolutely foolproof.
If you ignore the fact that they are still alive and the cause identified back to the source.
Why do you have to ignore the fact that they are alive? It's pretty obvious that this was an attempt on their lives and they were lucky to survive (so far). What has that got to do with who did it?
Are you seriously trying to argue that it was some sort of accident? Hard to see the relevance of the youtube clip otherwise.
Seems like a lot of trouble to assassinate a couple of Russian expats.
surely putin could have sent over some Russian drivers...
"but they were in a lift/ swimming pool/ changing rooms at the squash court when the car struck them"
...nothing suspicious there.
could be that the governments trying to change the composition of the chem-trails to something that won't kill all the bees but causes breathing difficulties in some people.
salisbury was just a trial run. Hell we can match the craziest Russian scientists in the chemical warfare game.
Sigh....as others have said...and me actually....there is plenty of motive for Putins brand of realpolitik to include messages like the one that has been sent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43433552
UK police have launched a murder investigation after the death of Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov in south-west London.
After being given a suspended sentence for another count of fraud in 2006, he fled to the UK to seek political asylum and became a critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Mr Glushkov also had a close friendship with fellow Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky, who came to the UK in 1999 after falling out with Mr Putin.
Mr Berezovsky was found hanged in the bathroom of his Berkshire home in 2013 and an inquest recorded an open verdict.
why the total lack of diplomacy this time around
Because last time TM was Weak & Wobbly on the issue, so now she's over-compensating
UK police have launched a murder investigation after the death of Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov in south-west London.
Why do we need an expensive and lengthy investigation when it's clear who did it? Just ask Boris.
I suppose Glushkov was just having a danger**** and went a bit far too.
Has anyone found any actual evidence yet?
Well there's one corpse with (apparently) indications of strangulation and three seriously ill people (apparently) poisoned by a nerve agent. That's quite a lot of evidence to be going on with. I haven't seen any of it myself but it's stretching credulity to pretend it's all fabricated.
so why the total lack of diplomacy this time around.
Because May et al have neither the skill nor the wherewithal to conduct international diplomacy. See Brexit for many many examples.
You want diplomacy? You’ve seen who our foreign secretary and defence secretary are, right?
I thought this was quite interesting,
Resident Chelsie Croes, 21, said: “They came to our house asking to check the wi-fi. The police wanted to check our internet routers. They didn’t say why they were doing it. I don’t know if they wanted to find out if we had been hacked into.”
So, as far as we know she's innocent yet she's had something of hers that holds some pretty personal data checked over. This doesn't sit easy with me. We know the government can access our internet data but if say, she had transferred some private videos of her Jilling off, from one computer to another within her home, and named that filename something obvious like Making a fish finger sandwich, then this would be shown in the log files of her router, potentially.
Does this set a precedent? Literally nothing is private.
Don’t worry. Theresa May proved when she was Home Secretary that she’s a massive respect for civil liberties
Apparently it was Israel after all
Seems like a lot of trouble to assassinate a couple of Russian expats.
I almost think they're collateral themselves. If it's Russia (quack, etc), then it seems apparent that it serves two other purposes:
1) Sends a message to all other defectors that they are not and will never be safe
2) Sends a message to the UK government that Russia can and will act on UK soil, and frankly, there's nothing the UK can do about it
I was having a conversation the other night about the general intelligence of political leaders. Putin is definitely one of the smartest alive presently. He might be one of the smartest in recent history full stop.
Putin just needs to get reelected and then pull a Xi Jinping to remove term limits, how he has engineered that I can't fathom
Whilst I’m not a fan of Corbyn, the fact that he his being roundly barracked by the more warlike politicians and right wing press, makes me think that he may be correct in his condemnation, but also in his call for caution.
And members of his own party, from comments I’ve heard on the news.
Because May et al have neither the skill nor the wherewithal to conduct international diplomacy. See Brexit for many many examples.
And what, pray tell, did diplomacy do in the previous examples of seeming state-sanctioned assassination in the U.K.?
Tzar Putin acts the tough-guy, but he’s little more than your average school-yard bully, picking on and provoking others into retaliation then acting then claiming they’re the innocent party and everyone disrespects them when all they want is to have everyone love them.
Like in Ukraine, and shooting down another country’s passenger jet.
Putin ran the KGB, he’s a master of this sort of behaviour, in destabilising governments and manipulating people, and it seems there are a significant number here who are easily manipulated as well.
Can I just check I have this right:
The attack happened in Salisbury which also happens to be where Porton Down is located?
If there is anywhere in the UK this substance is likely to have been stored or manufactured for testing it is in Porton Down?
Try looking at a map; Porton Down isn’t in Salisbury it’s on Salisbury Plain, a sodding great area of chalk downland that makes up most of Wiltshire, which is why much of the British military has its bases there, for training and live firing, and it’s why Porton Down is there, so it’s out of the way of the places people actually live.
Do some research, it’s what Google is good at!
Here’s Porton Down’s location, it’s ‘near’ Salisbury, relatively speaking, but not ‘in’
And for the real conspiracy folk, there’s even a village not far away called Palestine, right on the top right of this map:
Evidence of foul play - absolutely. But specifically Russia?? None that I have seen or that has been offered up.
Would I put it past Russia - no.
But would I put it past the UK, Israel, the US or others? Er, no also.
All have form as being sneaky b*****ds and most Governments are as crooked as sin - especially those named above.
The West needs is 'baddy'. Russia are conveniently that. They need to be maintained as such so that the agenda can continue to be pushed to allow continually increased military spending, allow unquestioned or balanced surveillance on the people and allow the general suppression of civil liberties whilst all the time ensuring that the rampant debt based consumerism required to perpetually keep the capitalist ponzy scheme is propped up.
I have no doubt that Russia quite enjoys its position as No.1 baddy too which doesn't help the situation!
One country is run by an actual Bond villain and the other a schoolteacher. Did you see the dude they wheeled out for the security council?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I rest my ****ing case lol
It's Friday and I'm pissed but yall ****ing hilarious.
And remember guys, when in doubt, blame Israel. Also bankers and that evil shithead Blair.
All those lovely lunatics like Putin, Saddam, Kohmeni, Gaddafi duck, Pol Pot, Castro, Velupillai Prabhakaran - they're just all misunderstood bros. We all want to get along really. And even if they are evil shitbags, it's because we're evil - so we can't complain - let's just let them all kill each other. It's kind of fun to watch all the fuzzy wuzzies go all killey, rapey and mustard gassey anyway.
And if we interfere in that, it's definitely because..... neocolonialism for oil.
The West needs is ‘baddy’. Russia are conveniently that. They need to be maintained as such so that the agenda can continue to be pushed to allow continually increased military spending, allow unquestioned or balanced surveillance on the people and allow the general suppression of civil liberties whilst all the time ensuring that the rampant debt based consumerism required to perpetually keep the capitalist ponzy scheme is propped up.
Riiggghhhht - that military spending that has been decimated since the height of the cold war (3.8% of GPD) and now stands at less than 2 %.
But yes, the British military industrial complex is definitely on the warpath with it's budget that is roughly half the yearly budget of the NHS.
The idea that the uk govt planned all this...to make itself look helpless and friendless... lol
....with it’s budget that is roughly half the yearly budget of the NHS.
Frankly it would be a much better use of the money if the NHS’s budget was 10x that of the military
I have seen no evidence offered it was Russia. I think thats the most likely explanation but not the only possible one
Actually, I did check google maps. 23 miles. About half an hour's drive, in fact.
I didn't think I was suggesting Porton Down was in Salisbury. Given the fact it's a village itself I thought that would be obvious but I guess if you're just looking for flaws any excuse will do.
You realise that you're just sounding desperate when you use sarcasm to say anyone who questions the government's line is being moronic? Absolutely nothing has been 'proved' and not asking questions about your government's motives is a dangerous road.
Frankly it would be a much better use of the money if the NHS’s budget was 10x that of the military
It’s more like a quarter of the NHS budget.
The proof that points to Russia is the specific type of Novichok nerve agent used, a type only ever produced by Russia and nobody else. The types of Novichok agents produced by other countries were different and all had different signatures so easy to identify the source of the agent.
So the two possible scenarios are Russia did it (either ordered by Putin or not...doesn't matter, Putin is still as culpable in both those cases), or somebody else has started to produce the specific Russian recipe of Novichok nerve agent to make it look like Russia. Only a significant government has the capability to do that. It's not that easy even for a significant government.
Dismissing the second scenario....i.e. the UK, US or other significant nation did this, then that leaves only one viable possibility....Russia.
May hasn't actually directly accused Russia, she's said words like, 'it is highly probable' (forget what BJ and others have said, that's just a side show), so Russia is suspected as the evidence points to them. Russia also has significant history and form in this area with bumping people off using poisons, and they (Putin) have motive. What we don't have is a clear idea of the means....how the agent was delivered....we're still investigating that and trying to understand that. It might be the case we will never be able to establish this. This is exactly why poisons are the weapons of choice for assassins....you can administer them to the target and by the time the target dies both they and the assassin are far away from the actual site the poison was administered so very hard to trace and establish who was involved any how the act was carried out.
However while all this goes on we can't ignore the the fact that the evidence means that almost 'beyond all reasonable doubt' the Kremlin is responsible, so we've initiated some mild sanctions by expelling their intelligence officers...a shot across the bow while we gather more understanding about how the agent was actually administered.
Or we could do what Putin wants and engage in more dialogue and he'll play us like a fiddle like he has with everyone for decades.. i.e. we either play Putins game, which hasn't worked so far, or we try something different.
Putin is a Psychopathic Dictator of the worse kind. I really don't understand why so many people are so willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Also I don't understand the conspiracy theories too...so the UK somehow managed to manufacture some 'Russian' Novichok and tried to bump off an ex-russian spy and his daughter as part of some elaborate plan for whatever (I don't know) reason. We then managed to convince a pro-Russian maverick US President to believe, or at least, go along with us and for the first time in his administration criticise Russia. And similarly with an anti-UK French President who would sieze upon the opportunity to discredit and embarrass the UK. If this were all true then that would demonstrate international manoeuvring of the most sophisticated and skilful type that no other leader of any nation has ever demonstrated. It would be extraordinary if May, of all people, had pulled this off.
No. I think the most plausible explanation is that Putin did it.
A quick update on what's happening in Salisbury
The kettle is on in the bike shop. Henderson's have finished baking, the shelves are now full (Try the seeded farmhouse). The smaller Reeve's hasn't got a queue if you fancy a sausage and egg roll. Excellent cake in the Fisherton Mill for later. The market is up, too, try Wilton Wholefoods for herbs and spices. In short, life goes on!
🙂
Can you provide me with the source of your information about Novichok. Nothing I've read by anyone says they can identify it as coming from Russia, only that Novichok was originally developed in Russia. The most common phrase I've heard when it comes to identifying the source as being Russian is 'on the balance of probabilities' which does not suggest much in the way of irrefutable evidence.
I don't think anyone has said that on the balance of probabilities Putin is an unlikely candidate. I just think some of us are questioning how the government can be so certain. Despite being a buffoon Johnson is the foreign secretary. If he wasn't speaking for the government then there should have been a statement put out immediately making that clear. They didn't and therefore it was a statement made by the government.
The types of Novichok agents produced by other countries were different and all had different signatures so easy to identify the source of the agent.
No, it's nigh on impossible to unequivocally prove the source through its "signature", as I have gone to some length to demonstrate.
It is highly likely that only Russia has produced these agents, but it's not impossible that others have. There are many other countries with the capability to synthesise highly toxic compounds. Whether they have synthesised novichok is another question. But the point remains that unless a vial of the stuff is found in the hands of a Russian agent, the line that novichok = Russia to the exclusion of all other sources is at best circumstantial.
I think the most plausible explanation is that Putin did it.
I agree. But that's all it is: the most plausible. All the UK has a present is a plausible circumstantial case. It does not have categoric proof, and frankly, I doubt it ever will as the two ways of achieving this (finding it on an active Russian agent, or forensically tracing it to a lab in Russia) seem to be unlikely. With my chemist's hat on, I'd say that catching someone red-handed would be the much easier avenue of obtaining proof.
(forget what BJ and others have said, that’s just a side show),
No, like it or not (and personally I don't), he's the Foreign Secretary, a Minister of the Crown. He speaks with the authority of the British Government on this issue. And as such, the Government's statements have been factually incorrect.
a shot across the bow while we gather more understanding about how the agent was actually administered.
So once we've gathered this understanding, what do "shots at the bow" look like? Are we going to invade? Perhaps nuke them. Maybe we'll take them to the ICC? This is the point. There is nothing the UK can do to hurt Putin or Russia in any material sense.
The more this continues, the wiser Corbyn looks. Of course it is pure Mail-fodder that he doesn't join in the general excitement and making of animal-noises that characterises our seat of government, but May and her clown have given the Russians the perfect diversionary spectacle by not being open and straightforward.
Yeah, the Russians are innocent victims in all of this, Putin is hurt and upset by the unkind things we've been saying, and cannot understand why Boris is being so mean about him.
And all those other Russians living in the UK - just unfortunate accidents. It could have happened to anyone.
And the state-level doping going on at Sochi, and who knows where else, just western propaganda and lies, which could easily be proved if that Russian whistle-blower came out of hiding and testified in a nice open court. And he would be completely safe.
It's bad news for us though that we're pitting the likes of Boris Johnson and that Fireplace salesman guy up against Putin. Taking a knife to a gun fight.
Well well well - it appears that the Porton down scientists have NOT been able to identify this as russian manufacture but where pressured into saying
"“Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured."
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/
Yeah, the Russians are innocent victims in all of this, Putin is hurt and upset by the unkind things we’ve been saying, and cannot understand why Boris is being so mean about him.
Where have I said that it wasn't Russia? All I've done is demonstrate that it's damnably difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt, the threshold required by a court of law, that it is Russia. As such, pathetic overtures to a second cold war seem rather unhelpful.
On the balance of probabilities is another issue, but I'd rather like to think there's a higher threshold of evidence required to justify punitive action against a foreign nation. You'd need more than that to send a shoplifter to jail.
If you give credence to what Craig Murray has to say, the medium article I posted back a page is worth a read
Maybe it was Lord Lucan and Elvis? In league with the Mossad agents that did 9/11? And some aliens?
Instead of being sarcastic arseholes, why not tell us how you’d prove in a court of law that the nerve agent came from Russia?
You couldn’t, but that’s against the context of Russian doctrine of deniability, see Ukraine, cyber attacks, online subversion etc. The whole MO is designed so you can’t prove it’s them. In that context, limited diplomatic measures seem reasonable.
You couldn’t,
Well, there you go
.....quack, etc
Whilst i agree we cannot prove it was them -imagine spies being able to do assassinations that cannot be proved to be them even when they do it in a way that really shows its them- its a signal to ex spies* as much as it was to him.
I am not sure what you want or expect us to do. the trolling comments by the russians show their complete disdain for all of this and we have basically two options
1. Say we cannot be sure t was them and do nothing
2. Do this
Which do you prefer?
IMHO russia is becoming a serious threat with Putin nothing more than a dictator hell bent on destabilising the democracies and the alliances of the west by any means necessary, We know this and we know he is not as shit as leave absolute proof. We have to act on what we know is their MO even though , on many/most/all occasions, we cannot prove it was them even though we all know [ and they barely deny it]
I think anyone willing to give russia the benefit of the doubt* is hopelessly naive and play into the plans of russia to sow discord in our societies
* as I said we can never prove it in a court of law but we all know the pattern and the MO at work here.
Neither Theresa May nor Boris Johnson have decided who the perpetrators of the attack were. That judgement was probably made by the UK's most senior career intelligence officials (Joint Intelligence Committee?). It would have been based on more than just the fact that the Russians developed the Novichok agents, i.e. it's possible they may have other intelligence sources such as from GCHQ and from any moles MI6 might have in the Kremlin or the Russian intelligence service.
The JIC will have communicated both its assessment of who the perpetrators were to Theresa May, and crucially it will also have told her how confident it was of its assessment. It's possible that the JIC knows with absolute 100% certainty that the Russians did it, which might explain why Theresa May and Boris Johnson have been so unequivocal in accusing the Russians. If there is little or no prospect of getting the sort of corroborating evidence which would not expose their intelligence sources and which could be shared with the public, such as scientific evidence about the source of the Novichok agent used, then there might be little point in waiting for the official police investigation etc. to run its course before accusing the Russians.
What I would prefer Junkyard is a different option. collect the evidence then make measured sanctions as a result. Not kneejerk reactions followed by evidence gathering.
I'd have thought waiting to next week would have helped in two ways:
1) Not jumping straight on the Russians before it could seemingly be proven (as far it is possible)
2) If Putin did it to help garner support for his election with the narrative of them being bullied by the west, it would have negated that.
My take on it is that it will be impossible to prove definitely - say, the burden of proof required in court.
But on balance of probabilities, it likely was the Russians and Putin in particular. The response to this should have been presented as a response to the widening series of provocations from them - Crimea, hacking of infrastructure, distorting social media in elections and referendums, Syria/'mercenaries', flying through our airspace etc
Not all can be definitely attributed to them, but the probabilities it wasn't get smaller and smaller with each (for example) 90% confidence in the assessment of it being them wot dun it.