Anyhow back to mates and that.
Make your own choices
Exactly! Why didn’t they do that study when it was proven to work and been used safely for years! Surly a lot quicker and cheaper.
because it is toxic at high levels and low levels don't do anything. There is more to it than the cost of the drug. Vaccines prevent infections, drugs treat infections. Prevent the disease and you help prevent hospitals filling up with people, you help prevent people being in ICU and you help prevent death. I'd rather have a vaccine than get infected and treat the disease.
But it’s censorship
De-monetising conspiracy theory misinformation videos isn't censorship though is it.
My personal answer to the ops question.
I'd remain friends with them but I'd point out that interactions would need to be via text or phone etc for the foreseeable as I also have obligations to those around me I need to keep safe.
He would have to understand that and deal with it as his actions,or lack of, have consequences.
Just as I wouldn't accept a lift in a car from a friend I know to be drunk.
Whats the misinformation?
Did you watch it or listen?
Bret Weinstein is a muppet - I would not listen/watch him ever. He thinks the spike protein produced by vaccines of sars-cov-2 is dangerous and cytotoxic (with no evidence) and is a spreader of disinformation.
but the jags not preventing it either
yes it is.
'bikeforfreedom' joined the forum at end of May this year as a 'free member' and has only posted to 3 very closely linked threads...this one, the main coronavirus one and anti-vax demo in Glasgow.
Troll; ignore - do not engage with it/him/her.
I disagree with one of my best mates about pretty much everything. Politics. Covid. Lockdown. Kids. Climate Change. Religion. And so on. We have some tremendous arguments. At the end of the day who can prove they are 100% right in anything - I can’t. Agree to disagree and crack on.
Going to see him in late August - bring it in 😁.
@Cougar - going back to my religious friend of the family, no not JW but 7th Day Adventist. We don't see her often enough to be invested in her decision. My only concern is that my mum has zero antibodies thanks to cancer and chemo (like 2-3 million people in this country) so we're cautious about contact (not that I'm clear whether people who are vaccinated can also transmit it - we're all still at Defcon1). Thankfully we're not supposed to know that she's refused the vaccination so I can say things like 'anti-vax crazies' perfectly innocently. I'm not going to discuss it with her because I'd want to follow up with how the world wasn't made in six days and isn't about to end any day now. Live and let live (except for Brexiters). For the record, she's also a NHS doctor (of Psychology - go figure etc).
No. This is the ‘big pharma’ argument.
Is big pharma corrupt? Absolutely. Should we follow advice blindly? Absolutely not.
I’m sceptical about everything. I’m sceptical when my partner tells me she’s fed the cats or done the washing up. But I’m also not daft enough to be unable to recognise when people know about a subject than I do. I’m sceptical about all those things you list, so you know what I do? I go and read some words.
Blind faith is stupid. Rejecting things you don’t understand for no good reason other than you don’t understand them is stupider. Scepticism and denial are two very different things.
@cougar Umm, I was asking why you are all so happy to accept the scientific proof for this but some of you choose to ignore scientific evidence and objective studies in other areas because it suits your agenda. There is no difference between that and the person in question. Which makes those people hypocrites.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for someone to show the working to prove someone who is against one vaccination is anti-vax. It's not like it's something you dabble in at the weekend, it's a fundamentally binary choice.
Back to the OP, just be glad your friend isn’t like bikeforfreedom.
Kelvin - let's hope OP's friend isn't bikeforfreedom.
If he was genuinely concerned about potential side effects I'd completely understand having had covid/long covid and serious side effects from the first Astra Zeneca jab.
Go watch some https://hugotalks.com/ rather than the BBC
Literally the first article on that site, "HYPNOTIST REVEALS GOVERNMENT BRAINWASHING TACTICS". Well, I'm convinced of its legitimacy.
That's one of the single most ludicrous and blatantly crackpot sites I've ever seen on the Internet, and I've been on the Internet longer that the web has so that's quite a feat, well done.
Although ivermectin would have been a lot quicker, cheaper and more successful.
Ah, you're one of those.
A vaccine researched and developed by half the medical scientists on the planet? No thanks.
Worming tablets for horses? Sign me up!
Dolt.
Ahh cheaper..repurpose = no £££$$$
The vaccines have been developed and shared without profit.
I guess your to intelligent to go listen to it though
"you're."
"too."
If you're going to see fit to lecture people on their intelligence you should probably learn some words first.
he’s always been the one that went against the grain, according to my Mrs.
Yeah. There's going against the grain because you're a radical free-thinker, and that's to be applauded. And then there's going against the grain because you think you know better than people who've devoted their life to studying something.
@cougar Umm, I was asking why you are all so happy to accept the scientific proof for this but some of you choose to ignore scientific evidence and objective studies in other areas because it suits your agenda. There is no difference between that and the person in question. Which makes those people hypocrites.
Sorry, I've clearly missed something here. What 'studies in other areas' are you accusing me of ignoring?
Anyway, I’m still waiting for someone to show the working to prove someone who is against one vaccination is anti-vax. It’s not like it’s something you dabble in at the weekend, it’s a fundamentally binary choice.
You want an explanation as to why someone who is against a vaccination is against a vaccination? That's a question for them, not us.
If you're arguing that, as I presume you are, that being against this particular vaccine rollout doesn't make you an "anti-vaxxer" per se then in isolation I'd agree with you. But it's far from binary, it's by degrees.
Being sceptical is good. Denying science because you don't understand it, not so much.
Sorry, I’ve clearly missed something here. What ‘studies in other areas’ are you accusing me of ignoring?
None. I was using the collective 'you' and then said 'some of you' ignore evidence in other areas. I think we know each other well enough to know I'd be on a hiding to nothing if I was accusing you of that.
If you’re arguing that, as I presume you are, that being against this particular vaccine rollout doesn’t make you an “anti-vaxxer” per se then in isolation I’d agree with you. But it’s far from binary, it’s by degrees.
That's exactly my point. But anti-vaxxers, by their nature, are binary. Unless you can show me an anti-vaxxer that is against all vaccines except one for a specific and odd reason. This is simply people being cautious through fear, ignorance or a bit of both.
Being sceptical is good. Denying science because you don’t understand it, not so much.
I agree, however with the amount of information, misinformation and downright lies being pumped out can you not at least find it understandable that some people may simply become overwhelmed and make a decision to forego any treatment until they are satisfied it's safe to do so? Look how many people hadn't heard of the immunity aspect in this thread, myself included. It's easy to think everyone knows the same as you do if you're immersed in it but if you're just sick of it all and going through the motions as so many folk are then that sort of info may pass you by.
Cougar, as usual admirable job on the science and facts. Not so admirable on the tolerance. You will not persuade anyone with ridicule and contempt.
Back to the OP, just be glad your friend isn’t like bikeforfreedom
@Kelvin I’m certain that your friends would all fit in a telephone box at the same time.
what other studies in other areas are 'we' ignoring then?
I'm a scientist, I manage 40 scientists, and by their very nature all are sceptical. Pretty much the first thing any of them does when they find something new out is to show it to their peers and ask them to help spot where they went wrong. And they do get it wrong from time to time. Just because a scientist wrote it doesn't make it a cast iron fact. But by the time it's been through several layers of checking, rechecking, peer review papers, and so on, it's getting close.
But some scientists are crackpots, and by publishing via less rigorous routes, or selecting less rigorous reviewers, can beat the system. No denying. Wakefield, for example.
And then there's someone with an opinion and a twitter account or a youtube channel. It's a very useful new media, but it's not the same as a paper in Nature Comms or the BMJ.
I'm prepared to listen but at some point refreshing the same old stuff over again at the next whack-a-mole sceptic that comes along - do you believe the earth is round or do you need to see the workings out again? I just don't believe that they are randomly popping up because it looks like a good place needing a debate (or even some 'perspective') on some alternative views - and if they are, then they should do their own research and go and read some past threads on exactly the same material because we're beyond explaining again, it's been explained multiple times already.
"But there's lots of double vaxxed people in hospital" - YES WE KNOW AND WE EXPLAINED WHY ALREADY!
and yes, the search function's rubbish and the Coronavirus thread is long - use site: singletrackworld ivermectin as a first example, and then fill your boots. Some very knowledgeable info if you go and look.
Notice there’s no figures for double jagged who’s in hospital
I hope John Prescott is ok
Oh, and a very quick google on that ^
Later on I'll suggest (again) why that is if you still don't like the facts.
Kelvin – let’s hope OP’s friend isn’t bikeforfreedom.
They won't be as the OP made the point that he is not a full on nutter
Anyway, I’m still waiting for someone to show the working to prove someone who is against one vaccination is anti-vax.
They are clearly not. I am doubts about the widespread use of a few vaccines in pets, they are given as a matter of course whether needed or not, boosters are given when not required and the doses are not controlled properly.
We had to almost force a vet to do a titer test rather than just do a booster of a vaccine that had immediate lifelong side effects first time round. Guess what, the results (4 years after vaccine) confirmed that antibodies were still in place and no booster would ever be needed.
That said, I have had 2 covid vaccines and am not anti-vax at all but will take each vaccine on its merits.
From that link
"‘This is probably because we’re running out of unvaccinated susceptible people to infect as more and more people get the vaccine.
‘Whilst the figures look worrying, it’s important to highlight that vaccines have massively reduced severe infections and post-vaccination Covid is a much milder disease for most people. The main concern is now the risk of long Covid.’"
This, and most, COVID threads on the internet.
I wonder if the rise in cases amongst the double vaccinated is also due to their misapprehension that they are now safe and can drop all precautions.
Not wanting to thread hijack too much but it's getting to me now. My boyfriend hasn't had the vaccine, not because he's 'anti' but because he doesnt want to potentially be ill for three days..... yes that's his only reason so he says. I've prompted him a few times but can't really say 'have it or else', I've also recently said no sex until you're jabbed in the hope that would work. To put into some context about why I feel I have the right to be annoyed, he's still going out to a work place every day with younger blokes who apparently live it up over the weekends and will be the sort who aren't keeping their distance and don't really care. I'm at still home constantly and have been since last March, I've been double jabbed ages ago because I'm extremely vulnerable and because of being immune compromised studies have been done which show I'm only approx 50% covered with my double jabs. I'm not really sure how else to get him to think about it seriously and act on it, I've tried saying sick for three days is nothing compared to the 6 month long covid or the risk of life for me...
Golfchick, he sounds like a complete arse!
Sorry GolfChick but I agree with aa. You’re vulnerable and he still won’t have the jab. That’s a huge dick move right there.
No jab for him, means no jabbing you.
Why wouldn’t you protect those closest to you because you’re afraid of feeling a bit achy.
what other studies in other areas are ‘we’ ignoring then?
@theotherjonv did I say anything about you or any particular person? I'll say it again, in bold;
some of you
I'm not getting into who did what or whatever, I made my point and that's that. I'm an engineer and it annoys me no end when people come away with ignorant nonsense then refuse to listen to reason or views that don't align with theirs. It happens all the bloody time and some of the worst offenders are the most vocal ones in this thread. Cognitive dissonance much?
@golfchick sorry but your boyfriend sounds like a selfish prick. That's a seriously shitty move.
We have a girl at work who is ‘sick of all the text messages’ telling her to get a jab. When pressed as to why she won’t get a jab ‘I’ve been OK so far and the vaccination centre is at Elland Road, that’s like 8 miles from my house!’ She drives… When asked about the people she might pass it on to ‘I don’t really care, that’s not my problem.’
Boss intervened at that point, no more discussion on the subject allowed.
Oddly, this was the same girl who was trying to negotiate working from home before she started, as she claimed she was anxious about being in an office 5 days a week.
Why do you call someone who doesn’t take the vaccine a nutter?
probably because they have no real reason for not having it.
I wonder whether some people are just scared of needles and using a range of other excuses to not admit to others/themselves
I don't get it personally, but some people seem to enjoy being scared of harmless stuff - needles, spiders etc
I'm really scared of having the second dose of AZ, despite not knowing what is wrong with me after the first 8 weeks ago my GP insists that on balance I should get the second jab, I'm not so sure and am genuinely conflicted.
I wonder whether some people are just scared of needles and using a range of other excuses to not admit to others/themselves
I'm a bit needlephobic and have weighed up risks and rewards which meant I did not have all the vaccinations work wanted me to have - but for the covid vaccine I had both my jags almost as soon as I could - jumping the queue because at the time I was a healthcare worker. why? Because I understood the risk / reward equation and told the staff i was needle phobic so to look out for me fainting.
did I say anything about you or any particular person?
No, you were super vague. Some people have tried to address your point about hypocrisy, but it’s impossible really unless you actually explain what you mean, rather than leaving people to try and fill in the blanks and guess what you mean. The beauty of science is that it doesn’t require blind faith, you can go and read from multiple sources, and changes are welcomed when new evidence arrives and is replicated and reviewed.
I wonder whether some people are just scared of needles
We have someone at work who is scared of needles, and was dreading their first jab… was totally honest about why… the buzz they were on when it came to their turn and they managed to go through with it was huge. Biggest team cheer for them the next morning at work.
Why do you call someone who doesn’t take the vaccine a nutter?
I didn't. I called someone who spreads misinformation and has an agenda for others not to have the vaccine a nutter.
I do risk analysis and management as part of my job.
So do I.
Risk = Consequence x Likelihood.
Fit forty year old male.
Risk from Covid = low x moderate.
Risk from vaccination = severe x very unlikely.
In the same way that people play the lottery, in that it's highly unlikely they will ever win any significant amount but if they do then the consequence is massive.
There are extremely rare reactions to the vaccine, it's is a real risk. Up here in the NE a 44 year old BBC Newcastle presenter, mother of 1, died from blood clots cased by the AZ vaccine.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I bet her family wish she hadn't taken the vaccine.
Saying that, I have had multiple vaccinations over the years, Hep, Cholera, Typhoid, Yellow fever, flu etc. and I didn't hesitate in taking the AZ.
However other people assess the risk differently and they are entitled to their decision.
@Golfchick, in those circumstances, he's being a dick. Dump him.
I called someone who spreads misinformation and has an agenda for others not to have the vaccine a nutter.
Especially if they create a new account on a mountain biking forum for the sole purpose of doing so.
Fit forty year old male.
Then your likelihood of a severe outcome from natural infection without first having been vaccinated is still much higher than from having any of the vaccines.
The deaths that have occurred after vaccination should not be ignored, they absolutely need close attention to help prevent further occurrences. Sadly one of the regular posters on this forum has been effected by this first hand.