It’s worth remembering even once you’re double jabbed you’re just as able to be a carrier/spreader
Nope - you can still be a carrier / spreader but the odds are much lower
People make stupid decisions all the time. If you spent your life purging anyone who did, you’d quickly run out of friends and it’d be exhausting.
IMHO it reflects poorly on your friend who is a) a bit dim and/or b) antisocial. But I have friends who are both.
Not to mention if you shun him because of this he’s more likely to fall in with a different crowd who won’t nag him to get the vaccine.
I know my attitudes are harsh but life is just too short to spend it with people like that
I have friends who are devoutly religious, who are brexiteer tories, who are anti bicycle. this is a whole 'nother level of stupidity and danger.
No beer - would you let your kids get in a car with someone who thinks drinking and driving is OK?
It’s not complete nonsense.
There is risk in taking any vaccine or medicine.
I do risk analysis and management as part of my job.
Whilst this is technically true, it is wooly thinking. There is of course a risk in having the vaccine. There is a risk in taking Paracetamol; there is a risk in eating peanuts; there is a risk in having sex; there is a risk when crossing the road; there is a risk in sticking your willy in an alligator's mouth. Are we going to argue that all these risks are equal? And then, there's a risk in catching CoV2.
There are superficially legitimate concerns to be had. "We don't know the long-term effects of the vaccine" for instance. But this doesn't really hold water because vaccination in and of itself is not new technology. We've been vaccinating for 200 years, we know how it works. "It's been rushed to market" is also valid at first glance but consider this: let's say a man can dig a hole in an hour; if two men dig a hole in half an hour, is it any lesser a hole? It's been developed remarkably quickly because the entire planet has thrown a vast amount of resource at it.
And "something about side effects" is where we came in here. We know the potential side-effects of Covid19, they're well documented by now and they include mildly inconvenient things like 'death.' Compare and contrast, how many people have had the vaccine and died as a direct result? If that's not 'zero' then it's tending statistically insignificantly close to it. Even if you're concerned about the vaccine for whatever perfectly valid or bullshit reasons you care to come up with, surely, surely it's preferable to dying, or to put your loved ones and everyone else around you at avoidable risk?
Having the vaccine is a choice and the notion that it will ever become mandatory is conspiracy theory bollocks. But if your choice is 'no thanks' when you're perfectly capable of having it then you're either a selfish asshole or a moron.
... which is also a choice.
Choose wisely.
Natural selection init...
If Covid dont get him something else will...
And one that should be questioned with him with a simple “what data are you looking at to suggest the vaccine poses more threat that any effects of catching Covid?”
That would be the common sense thing to do - but in my experience common sense isn’t in abundance when you’re dealing with these kind of people..
It’s been rushed to market” is also valid at first glance but consider this: let’s say a man can dig a hole in an hour; if two men dig a hole in half an hour, is it any lesser a hole? It’s been developed remarkably quickly because the entire planet has thrown a vast amount of resource at it.
Best analogy I’ve heard yet 👍
If they were ignoring self isolation rules etc I’d be marking them as a dick and binning them off. But no vaccine, I’d think they were a bit of an idiot and then carry on as usual. Certainly wouldn’t be losing mates over them making a personal decision that’s totally legal, even if I did think it was a stupid choice
Best analogy I’ve heard yet 👍
Aw, thanks.
My work colleague who lives in Austria won't have the Vax, very clever lady but still have it. I don't try persuade her as both times I've been hospitalised after both jabs.
I should probably add:
There's no harm in asking questions and expressing concerns. This is good, this is healthy, this is sadly all too rare and your mate should be applauded for it. People shouldn't intrinsically trust everything they read and hear.
But when you receive answers and reassurances to those queries from people who know what they're talking about, "experts" if you will, and you still stubbornly refuse to revise your opinions, then you're an idiot.
For me, it would depend on their reasons. I know two women in their 30s who aren't having it, one for religious reasons (apparently some vaccines are developed using fetal cells) the other because she wants to get pregnant in the next couple of years and just isn't sure about it. While I don't think they're right, the reasons aren't dumb enough for me to cut them off. I do have zero tolerance for the 'plandemic', Bill Gates, conspiracy theory rubbish though and anti-maskers but the only place I hear of idiots like that is here.
No beer – would you let your kids get in a car with someone who thinks drinking and driving is OK?
Aye, cos that's the ****ing same isn't it? 🙈
one for religious reasons (apparently some vaccines are developed using fetal cells)
JW?
There's some tricksy wording going on here, this is accurate but disingenuous.
Foetal cell lines are not the same as 'lumps of dead baby'. They are grown in a lab from a small number of cells harvested back in the 1970s.
And yes, vaccines generally were developed using cell lines. It's an essential process to test whether it works before sticking them in people. The CV2 vaccines do not contain cell lines at all, so if her concern is around being injected with foetal cells then it's moot.
And if her concern is a moral one, let's ask the Pope.
the other because she wants to get pregnant in the next couple of years and just isn’t sure about it.
How sure is she about Covid? She's not going to get pregnant if she's dead.
Aye, cos that’s the **** same isn’t it? 🙈
It's not wildly dissimilar. In both cases they're wilfully and avoidably putting other people's lives at risk, are they not.
The vaccine was also developed quickly because it in no way was. I went back to uni about 18 years ago and mRNA vaccines were being studied then. Oxford put out a video explaining that they'd been looking at how to develop vaccines against unknown diseases for some time. Having all the extra resources and collaborative efforts thrown at it will certainly have helped speed things along.
(apparently some vaccines are developed using fetal cells)
The vaccine was also developed quickly because it in no way was.
These points and more discussed here (please pass it on)…
https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrcwqX/
Sarah Gilbert and Catherine Green
Friday, 16 July
Before the World Health Organisation declared the outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 a pandemic, scientists Professor Sarah Gilbert and Dr Catherine Green had already started developing a vaccine against the virus which would go on to bring the world to a standstill. Their book, Vaxxers reveals the story behind the Oxford AstraZeneca jab, one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of medicine.
. There is a risk in taking Paracetamol; there is a risk in eating peanuts; there is a risk in having sex; there is a risk when crossing the road; there is a risk in sticking your willy in an alligator’s mouth.
Man, I'm lucky to be alive!
Which one would you rather spend time with?.
Are there any other options? For instance people who get the vaccines as soon as available and still take reasonable precautions. Cos that applies to all my friends anyway, thankfully.
I have quite a lot of friends who are 25-35 who are all keen to get vaccinated asap because they are educated and socially responsible. Knowing that helps confirm why I'm friends with them.
I’m in a similar situation with my riding mate and my work mate…both have their reasons.
Fortunately neither have tried to persuade me from getting jabbed.
I don’t let it bother me, they’re grownups and if they get ill, hopefully they’ll be ok.
I’d rather hang out with someone who has made a decision against taking a drug they are not happy with than hang out with some of the dramatic life sucking miseries on this thread.
I’d rather hang out with someone who has made a decision against taking a drug they are not happy with than hang out with some of the dramatic life sucking miseries on this thread.
Ohhhh you’re soooo edgy….
Swoon 😍
So you would rather be put at unneeded risk than lose a friend?
I think theres a big difference between the groups who say I'm not having g it because Bill Gates wants to put a microchip in me and the group who say I'm reluctant to have it because it appears to have been rushed through the trials and inevitably some corners will have been cut in the process so we cannot be certain that it as safe as, say, a tetanus jab, I'll hold back a while a huge population-wide experiment is carried out.
The former are just nuts, the latter may have a point, thalidomide was safe back in the day...
I would have no further contact with them.
Ohhhh you’re soooo edgy….
Swoon 😍
Literally the childish reply of the thread winner.
So you would rather be put at unneeded risk than lose a friend?
I put myself at worse risk and wouldn’t see a mate not getting vaccinated as posing any real risk anyway.
So yes probably
I’d rather hang out with someone who has made a decision against taking a drug they are not happy with than hang out with some of the dramatic life sucking miseries on this thread.
And yet, here you are. Hanging out with us dramatic life-sucking miseries.
Makes you think.
a mate not getting vaccinated as posing any real risk anyway.
Significantly increased risk of getting it and passing it on
At some point foreign travel will open up. Odds on that it will be for fully vaccinated individuals only or there's a two week isolation period when you arrive at your destination and when you get home.
When I was on my way to get my first jab, the AZ blood clot story was just breaking, even then the risks were vanishingly small even if you assumed that the vaccine was the cause of ALL those individuals getting blood clots, something like 40 individuals out of 20 million doses. That's 1 in 500,000. Compare that with the chance of me dying, I'm 62, before my next birthday - 1 in 100. The two aren't even in the same ball park.
rushed through the trials and inevitably some corners will have been cut in the process
Have a listen to that podcast with the people who developed one of the vaccines. To be honest, I now have more sympathy with the “microchip” people than the “I’ve heard bad things about the vaccines that put me off, but the effort to find out more about them from reputable sources is too much”. The former are vulnerable people being conned, the later are just bad fellow citizens.
What do you do when your best mate is anti Vax?
Isn't the standard answer a Henry, Nilfisk or Shark? Avoid Dysons.
Isn’t the standard answer a Henry, Nilfisk or Shark? Avoid Dysons.
5 hours too slow
Literally the childish reply of the thread winner.
YAY! GO ME!
Two of my wife's friends are unvaccinated. One is concerned over the risks it may pose to her but wears a mask and follows government guidelines and the other is an anti-vax, anti mask, plandemic tin-foil hat wearing selfish moron. the former currently has CV-19, caught from her unvaccinated partner who picked it up at work. Again. If there was any justice in the world, it would be the nut-job who has a dose of the 'rona.
My brother refused the AZ vaccine after the clotting issue came to light but has instead been vaccinated with Moderna.
I'm not aware of any of my friends refusing to be vaccinated, even the one who voted for Brexit...
I have friends who are devoutly religious, who are brexiteer tories, who are anti bicycle. this is a whole ‘nother level of stupidity and danger.
So you’ve made a choice as to which of these apparently irrational beliefs you’re happy to let slide? A choice that’s presumably based on your experiences and opinions. Others might make a different judgement. See where I’m going with this?
I may point them in the direction of this Article
The most telling sentence..
'Worryingly, about half of the patients on the ward today haven't been vaccinated. I have stopped asking them why, as they are clearly embarrassed."'
Okay firstly, anti-vax is a term used to describe an aversion to any vaccine, not one single case. The person in question demonstrably isn't.
Secondly, a lot of you are complete hypocrites. You choose to put faith in this one particular branch of science but if it was a question of health physics or nuclear power then suddenly you're all sceptics and telling folk not to believe industry bias etc. That's no better than the guy in this scenario.
Thirdly, what about AZ recipients? Are we second class citizens or just untermensch trash like the unvaccinated?
Finally, @grum shared values =! identical values. It's a Venn diagram, not inner party/outer party/proles. If you and your friendship group agree on everything on threat of expulsion I'd just call it what it is, grab some Koolaid and have a party.
My brother and sister have both gone full on conspiracy theory. My sister I get, she blends oils and potions. My bro however is an engineer who I’d previously thought of as pretty sane. He also has a vulnerable daughter.
I just avoid talking to them about it at the mo tbh.
So you’ve made a choice as to which of these apparently irrational beliefs you’re happy to let slide? A choice that’s presumably based on your experiences and opinions. Others might make a different judgement. See where I’m going with this?
You're conflating life threatening choices with non-life threatening choices? For all that I despise organised religion no-one died (well, in recent history) due to belief in a supernatural sky wizard.
So yes, yes I can.
As someone that has been living in France and in a mostly French family environment for the last 13 years I consider that I look at the UK from the outside in....
All I will say is....
Who was it that said it was a good thing that Communism, extreme socialism etc. never took a hold in the UK?
Secondly, a lot of you are complete hypocrites. You choose to put faith in blah blah
No. This is the 'big pharma' argument.
Is big pharma corrupt? Absolutely. Should we follow advice blindly? Absolutely not.
I'm sceptical about everything. I'm sceptical when my partner tells me she's fed the cats or done the washing up. But I'm also not daft enough to be unable to recognise when people know about a subject than I do. I'm sceptical about all those things you list, so you know what I do? I go and read some words.
Blind faith is stupid. Rejecting things you don't understand for no good reason other than you don't understand them is stupider. Scepticism and denial are two very different things.
There’s the odd one in my riding group but...
I’m neither their mother, nor their Dr. I am able to protect myself via the use of vac, mask and social distancing.
Outside of this difference of opinion they are supportive person that would step up should I take a bail out riding regardless of my thoughts on my own personal medical care.
As such I keep my opinions to myself and let them get on with their life.
Some of you sound like great friends by the way 😂.
So you’ve made a choice as to which of these apparently irrational beliefs you’re happy to let slide? A choice that’s presumably based on your experiences and opinions. Others might make a different judgement. See where I’m going with this?
A totally false conclusion? My pals odd religious or political beliefs do not put me in increased danger.
Bizarre a relative who is a medical writer by trade appears to be "agin" - so that is a topic that (like politics) I steer well clear of.
The thing is, surely if they truly believed that the best thing for them is to not be vaccinated, why wouldn't they put their reasons to me, as we are pretty *physically* similar (same sex, similar age, weight, fitness etc) and so the same reasons would apply to me.
So I do suspect a certain amount of cognitive dissonance - I wonder if decades of sorting out people's shitty papers and dodgy research has just kind of pushed them over the edge IYSWIM.
I just figure that at least they're up-front about it so I know they might be plague carriers...
For all that I despise organised religion no-one died (well, in recent history) due to belief in a supernatural sky wizard.
Say what??? There have been numerous cases of religious genocide and persecution in the past decade or 2.