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Old thread:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/msp-in-responding-amazingly-quick-shock/page/2
Mrs OAB had reply to our final protest today to GTCS- not only can she not be a Full Member of GTCS, she has additional stipulations on what she must do to teach in Scotland permanently:
She must still do 270 days teaching, of which 136 must be older age primary. And she still goes back to bottom of payscale.
So GTCS can be discriminatory to English trained people, women, parents and anyone who wants to work part time. 🙁
My email to our great SNP First Minister, SNP MSP and SNP councillor.
[i]I contacted you a while back regarding an issue over my wife being able to teach in Scotland.
Please see below the reply to my wifes appeal regards being able to hold full membership of GTCS. Note we have again protested, as GTCS have misunderstood that my wife's qualification is for whole of Primary.
We are still in a place where my wife is being discriminated against:
as she has qualified in England - one day's teaching in Scotland in the last 15 years would mean that other rules apply;
a Scottish qualification would allow her back on the TIS/probationary year, but being English qualified no-one will fund/support her.
a woman who has taken a career break. The policy's in place anti-family and discriminatory to women who have to return back down the payscale. This will become even more commonplace with the new GTCS policies that come into place this summer with 5-year update cycles.
because of issues of rurality, where teaching opportunities are limited. Yet Scotland is a rural nation. Already I have left my job in a rural area and taken work in Stirling (with out of school hours childcare) so that mrs_oab could have more opportunity to teach on a supply basis. We were about to move to Stirling area from Killin.
Because of health issues, mrs_oab can only work part time without significant challenges. Again, GTCS policy is to discriminate against part-time working as the TIS route cannot be taken and timescales are fixed.
GTCS policy's are a barrier to her working, not a productive and professional route back into the teaching profession.
She can teach the same class, in the same school - but not long term, only as supply with no preparation, no planning, no marking, no training or parents evening etc. Clearly short term supply is a poor way back into the profession.
Despite all the stipulations about the supply days and professional standards mrs_oab should be working, there is no formal way of her recording work days for GTCS, proving they happened or what the day entailed - she is currently having to photocopy time sheets, although some are about to be electronic and therefore she will have no proof.
She cannot access the TIS / Probationary year programme or alternative professional updating course (such as GMC or similar have).
Although having followed all GTCS advice ( http://www.gtcs.org.uk/registration/returning-to-teaching.aspx ), she is not eligible to Full Membership or return to teaching courses, and extra stipulations above what is stated have been imposed.
Although I understand GTCS is an entity separate to the Scottish government, I still believe that Government can influence such policy choices. I think SNP should look into these policies immediately, and compare them to other professions (such as medical or engineering) return to standards procedures.
I work every day with teachers across Scotland, leading CPD training, long-term in-service and in-classroom training and helping shape school policy and direction in teaching and learning. mrs_oab is as up to date, as experienced, as passionate and more contemporary in her approach than many of the teachers I meet each day. She has dedicated four years to get back into teaching, and failed.
Sadly this whole episode means that our time in Scotland will come to an end. I shall be moving our family south of the border, so that mrs_oab can go back to teaching without this battle, earning higher up the payscale as the experienced teaching practitioner that she is with full Qualified Teaching Status.
I shall also be ensuring that the press have access to all the emails and information.
Regards
[/i]
That is shit
Hope it gets resolved but not looking likely
Go to the herald, or the hootsmon, kick up a stink. That really is grim. .
Sorry to hear that. I've done everything I can for you. Which is to fix the broken post corrupting the first thread.
Does that mean education standard is higher in Scotland than the rest of UK? 😯
Sounds like local jobs for the local people ... 🙄
That is a pile of poo and by no means unique.
We looked at moving to Wales some time ago, but unless MrsCat could speak Welsh she would not be eligible to work as a midwife in Wales even though almost all Welsh people can speak English and only a small percentage have Welsh as a first and only language.
It's a shame as there are two trusts locally which seem to be very keen to offer her full time employment once she has completed her current course.
I really hope you can get this sorted out. Just seems wrong
Yeah that sounds like a nightmare. A by product of political machinations. Hope the situation resolves itself 🙁
Out of curiosity- is primary teaching not fundamentally a full time job? I know nowt about the subject but surprised it can be done part time.
shared teaching between two teachers usually doing 50/50 each
Lots ti teach each doing seperate bits [ subjects or projects] usually but both doing maths and english which is fairly standard tbh in terms of work
Think about secondary you have loads of different teachers and that is fine..you could do the same in primary if you had massive ones
Cheers! I now return you to the actual thread.
That's crap.
I had a short lived career as a teacher a few years back. I remember having dealings with GTCS and it seemed they were out to make life harder for me as a probationer. They summed up the 'computer says no' attitude to me.
unless MrsCat could speak Welsh she would not be eligible to work as a midwife in Wales
That doesn't sound right. Are you sure it wasn't just a case of there only being bilingual posts available? I doubt all Welsh midwives speak Welsh.
[i]Out of curiosity- is primary teaching not fundamentally a full time job? I know nowt about the subject but surprised it can be done part time. [/i]
I thought teaching was part-time? 😉
[i]That doesn't sound right. Are you sure it wasn't just a case of there only being bilingual posts available? I doubt all Welsh midwives speak Welsh. [/i]
Maybe only bilingual posts are available, now and forever..., but you existing ones don't need the language.
http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/829/page/52301
[i]The traditional language of Wales is Welsh. Currently about 20% – 30% of the population in Wales speak Welsh in their everyday life. However most of that population will also be able to speak English. So, although health employers welcome Welsh-speaking nurses, the majority of nurses and midwives in Wales do not speak Welsh. [/i]
And what percentage on mums-to-be speak Welsh as a first language? Let me guess, pretty much zero.
[i] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21259079 [/i]
Seems its not 20-30%, but 19%. And will continue to decline as the old die (my MIL speaks Welsh to one person, her mate - none of the rest of the family do).
As for the Scottish problem, could your wife not start as a childcarer and get in that way, or some other approach?
Also cannot which school she supply's to sponsor her, or would this again need her to do the how-ever-many days (270?) in the year - are there actually that many teaching days in a year?
@Molgrips & b r - jobs advertised in N Wales have specifically stated that the applicant MUST speak Welsh, if they hadn't we would be living on Anglesey by now. If that has relaxed it has only done so in the last 12 months as we looked into a move after her back surgery which was about 18 months ago.
What's the deal with private schools in Scotland - in England you don't need a teaching qualification to teach in an independent school (although the vast majority do - it's mainly people like university lecturers without a secondary qualification that use this route). They might look very favourably on an English qualified teacher with plenty of experience. They can also set their own pay scales.
I've looked at this myself and got a bit depressed - I was quite keen to move back to Scotland but the red tape looks a bit off putting. It's a shame as some subjects on the Scottish curriculum could do with a kick up the arse - the other aspect that put me off moving was the depressingly parochial and out of date curriculum I would have to teach. It felt about 20 years behind the English and Welsh variants.
Binners must be having a long lie. Can be the only explanation he's not posted up a picture of Alex Salmond yet.....
convert - have a look at the new Curriculum for Excellence. It's already being adopted by some English private schools.
She should have [url= http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/10419235 ]been[/URL] a [url= http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/10349596 ]doctor[/url].
@Molgrips & b r - jobs advertised in N Wales have specifically stated that the applicant MUST speak Welsh
Hmm.. may be different for North Wales. Seems like a decidedly odd policy unless they are heavily oversubscribed for applicants.
And what percentage on mums-to-be speak Welsh as a first language? Let me guess, pretty much zero.
What? Never heard young people speaking Welsh?
Hmm.. may be different for North Wales. Seems like a decidedly odd policy unless they are heavily oversubscribed for applicants.
Friend of a friend is an English (not language) teacher in North Wales. Lived just behind the shops in Capel Curig when I met them. Lucky gits.
She had to learn Welsh before getting a teaching job. I think it's tied into the high level of Welsh being spoken in the region.
Do they even have English medium schools up there then?
Who knows, I remember she was a primary school teacher. And had to learn Welsh to get a job teaching.
That's about all I remember.
They had a nice coal fire iirc.
[i]What? Never heard young people speaking Welsh? [/i]
No. Except my nieces/nephews at school to get their qualification.
I've the same problem with any Govt pushing a language policy, all that happens is if you are not careful it restricts the ability of its children to get on in the wider world while building state-sponsored nepotism.
Ever been to Quebec?
There is only one world language, English. And whatever country you travel to it's the one people want to learn, and about the only language that will get you by, everywhere.
There is only one world language, English.
No, there is a world of languages. English won't get you by everywhere. I speak French, English, German and a little Spanish and have still had a complete communication failure within a couple of hundred miles of London. I asked directions at a bar and they had to get the German speaking cook to help me - guess where?
Nope as someone whos had to do tool box talks on a white board with stickmen because there were zero fluent english speakers let alone with a technical capacity on the ukrainian rig ill argue that just english is no good.
I wish i could speak another language - te skill is not in the language known its in knowing how to learn another language.
Back on track.
Dont you just need any degree or even life experiance plusteaching diploma in england ?
Scotland requires a degree in your subject then your pgde diploma to teach iirc when i looked into it.
What? Never heard young people speaking Welsh?No.
I have.
Whenever this comes up, I imagine what English people would be saying if we'd lost the war and were being forced to speak German. I'm sure you wouldn't just be shrugging your shoulders and saying 'well everyone else speaks German, what's the point in English?'
I've the same problem with any Govt pushing a language policy, all that happens is if you are not careful it restricts the ability of its children to get on in the wider world while building state-sponsored nepotism.
Hmm.. I do wonder if anyone educated in say Welsh has worse English as a result? Given the overwhelming exposure to English everywhere in Wales.
Edukator - Belgium?
I asked directions at a bar and they had to get the German speaking cook to help me - guess where?
Wales!
[i]I asked directions at a bar and they had to get the German speaking cook to help me - guess where?[/i]
Poland?
[i]No, there is a world of languages. English won't get you by everywhere[/i]
If it won't then you'll need something specific for that person.
I've spent the last 30 years travelling with work and IME English is becoming more widespread, not less.
When Eastern Europe first opened up I used German, now its English. Few bother learning German now, and for those over 40, Russian was their 2nd language.
Further afield its still the language folk learn, because they know its the one language that COULD get them by.
And if you are in global business (or politics) its a no-brainer. I've known many bright people who didn't get promoted because of language skills - unfortunately I've also known who've got promoted because of them...
It is just massive professional gatekeeping it seems, and maybe the term discrimination is a bit harsh - disadvantaging is closer to the mark... Todays phone call to my wife suggested that it was her problem as she chose to live in a rural place and chose not to have qualified in Scotland and chose not to teach for a few years to have family - not thier policy that is disadvantaging her.
.
Can I ask other people on here how you update yourself professionally: either after a career break or coming from another nation? Surely there are a couple of docs, engineers, instructors of some kind, nurses etc on here.
I think nursing wise there are a certain number of hours of supervised practice that you have to do to get back into it. I think too that in order to maintain your registration you need to demonstrate some practice hours.
Not sure tho.
This sort of thing?
I would rather change career and stay in Scotland than go to England and do what I'm used to. I spend almost every day now I'm back in England wishing I was in Scotland, it is superior in just about every way. Don't do it Matt, you'll only regret it.
The Scotish Government have a massive chip in their shoulder about the English. They've contrived a law which makes University free for all Scots and EU countries but the English have to pay. I think we should have a referendum vote to eject them.
@munro - I'm all for being proud of your heritage but for starters England vs Scotland - biking wise better weather no midges, generally better economic prospects, transport
[i]It is just massive professional gatekeeping it seems, and maybe the term discrimination is a bit harsh - disadvantaging is closer to the mark... Todays phone call to my wife suggested that it was her problem as she chose to live in a rural place and chose not to have qualified in Scotland and chose not to teach for a few years to have family - not thier policy that is disadvantaging her.[/i]
I'm struggling to understand how they can be an 'independent' yet 'control' who can and can't teach in a state school - plus it looks like the only real ability to appeal a GTCS decision is through the GTCS...
[quote=jambalaya ]@munro - I'm all for being proud of your heritage but for starters England vs Scotland - biking wise better weather no midges, generally better economic prospects, transport
munrobiker is English 😆
@munro - I'm all for being proud of your heritage but for starters England vs Scotland - biking wise better weather no midges, generally better economic prospects, transport
I think you need to spend 1hr stood in the Fox House Inn car park in shorts and t shirt on an overcast humid day.
Boo hoo, poor you. Bleeting on about the injustice of a system not willing to change to accomodate your needs and trying to pass it off as institutional racism ain't going to change the fact your wife doesn't meet the requirements. Suck it up and do the extra work, it's nothing to do with discrimination or chips on shoulders.
You should leave Scotland, the sooner the better.
Whenever this comes up, I imagine what English people would be saying if we'd lost the war and were being forced to speak German. I'm sure you wouldn't just be shrugging your shoulders and saying 'well everyone else speaks German, what's the point in English?'
Slightly different. English is useful in other places of the world other than England. It is right that the language is kept alive but not at any cost.
It's a funny old thing. The welsh language schools get massive funding in when compared with the english language ones. I've surveyed LOTS of them and the differences are, well pretty disgusting really. Yet when I did some work at the WAG buildings, I never once heard a word of Welsh spoken.
The reality is there are loads of primary teachers out there, (and PE secondary) they dont need to bend the rules for your wife. Just the way it is.
Oh and the GTCS is an extention of the Scottish Government. They are far removed from independant, if they were they would fight for teachers in a similar manner that the GMC does for doctors.
Boo hoo, poor you. Bleeting on about the injustice of a system not willing to change to accomodate your needs and trying to pass it off as institutional racism ain't going to change the fact your wife doesn't meet the requirements. Suck it up and do the extra work, it's nothing to do with discrimination or chips on shoulders.You should leave Scotland, the sooner the better.
*not sure if troll...*
However, we did not say it is racism, as my last post said, just institutionalised gatekeeping.
What are you qualified in? Can you imagine if your employer said that you were no longer qualified to do your job, that you had to take a pay cut, could not take on a permanent contract and re-do a years work in a new place.
The reality is there are loads of primary teachers out there, (and PE secondary) they dont need to bend the rules for your wife. Just the way it is.
Not in the schools I am daily working in, across Scotland.
Oh and the GTCS is an extention of the Scottish Government. They are far removed from independant, if they were they would fight for teachers in a similar manner that the GMC does for doctors.
Not according to Mike Russell, head of Education and Learning, who has distanced himself from GTCS.
Jambalaya- I'm English. I moved to Scotland for uni, the wife made me move back to England. We both think it's shite now we've experienced the alternative and can't wait to move back. I live in the Peak District now and find it difficult to motivate myself to ride because the trails are so much less exciting than those in the Highlands.
Matt- while rene59 hasn't put it in particularly friendly terms, to an extent I reckon he's sort of right. I've taught in a high school in Scotland and it is different to teaching in England- the whole system is different. I'd not expect a teacher trained in the English system to be able to transfer directly over without retraining. Whether starting at the bottom is the best way to do that or not is debatable, though, and I do feel for your situation. The unblinkered uncompromising view of government policies in situations like this is upsetting.
. I'd not expect a teacher trained in the English system to be able to transfer directly over without retraining.
So England/Wales need a similar scheme for Scottish teachers then?
I'd reckon so.
Matt - have you considered taking your qualifications to France and becoming a MTB guide? 😀
*not sure if troll...*
However, we did not say it is racism, as my last post said, just institutionalised gatekeeping.
What are you qualified in? Can you imagine if your employer said that you were no longer qualified to do your job, that you had to take a pay cut, could not take on a permanent contract and re-do a years work in a new place.
So I emailed our MSP Bruce Crawford this afternoon over an issue of my wife not being able to teach in Scotland as she qualified in England.
5 minutes later, he called and asked lots of questions and promised letters to some people for answers this week....Stil does not solve the issue of institutionalised racism against English in Scotland.
As far as teaching profession is concerned Scotland and England are separate countries with different governing bodies, different set of rules and ways of doing things.
I am a compliance manager, qualified and chartered in h and s, environmental and quality management. My qualifications are equally valid in both Scotland and England and I work in both countries. I knew this to be case before I embarked on my chosen career.
I also knew that if I wanted to relocate to another country where my qualifications and experience were recognised, but do not meet that countries requirements, then I would have to do extra work bringing them up to the standard for that country. I would also expect that I may have to restart at a lower level and gain additional experience to do this.
What I wouldn't do is relocate there then expect special treatment and rules to be changed to accommodate my circumstances.
rene, how would you feel if rules were introduced which meant you had to retrain (at your cost) to work in England, with a lower wage for a fairly long period?
All due to political protectionism.
[i]I would rather change career and stay in Scotland than go to England and do what I'm used to. I spend almost every day now I'm back in England wishing I was in Scotland, it is superior in just about every way. Don't do it Matt, you'll only regret it.[/i]
What a load of bollox......just because you live in a shithole don't tar the rest of our glorious land with the same brush!
It's not retraining though it's completing the standard for registration.
Out of teacher training you have to complete the standard to register with GTCS, why not from a different system?
It does seem excessively long and the pay cut is not right. Why not just accept that she has to meet the standard as does everyone who teaches in Scotland and wants to rgister with GTCS? It is a hoop but not discrminatory to expect everyone who wants to register to meet the same standards.
rene, how would you feel if rules were introduced which meant you had to retrain (at your cost) to work in England, with a lower wage for a fairly long period?
Rules don't just change overnight without warning. Generally, rules (changes in regulations and legislation) are only introduced at set times of the year after a period of publication and discussion which allows those who would be affected by any change to adapt.
So I guess that when rules change, being a professional in that industry and keeping up with what's going on I have had prior notice and time to make any changes I require to make.
FWIW - GTCS are changing the professional development/registration/accreditation system in 2014. My school is on board with a pilot this year.
Unfortunately for your situation the Scottish "system" as deemed separate from those in place in England and Wales and as a result constant professional updates are required to maintain status if qualified elsewhere. Depending on how long your wife has been out of the classroom, and how much CPD she has been allowed, she may have "missed the boat" on certain developments i.e. CfE. You may find that independant schools would allow her to gain enough time in class to allow her to meet the GTCS criteria for registration, so look at www.scis.org.uk/jobs as well as tess. Also try going directly to independants near where you live as many keep their own supply lists.
Our school is really hard up for supply teachers for one. [i]Email me[/i] if you want contact info. Unfortunately the dealine for a couple of part time/maternity jobs has just passed.
There are very few supply teachers, but then who would do that job for £60 a day.
Every perminant ft primary post has more than enough applicants, some posts have well over 100 going for it. Its a numbers game.
As for Mike Russell, yes whatever :roll:.
I am a compliance manager, qualified and chartered in h and s, environmental and quality management. My qualifications are equally valid in both Scotland and England and I work in both countries. I knew this to be case before I embarked on my chosen career.
15 years ago when mrs_oab trained, the qualification WAS valid in Scotland. Heck, in 2009 it was valid. So maybe we should 'cancel' your qualification and make you move?
Rules don't just change overnight without warning. Generally, rules (changes in regulations and legislation) are only introduced at set times of the year after a period of publication and discussion which allows those who would be affected by any change to adapt.
I do hope you are keeping up with changes in Spain, maybe Ireland, or USA, just in case you want to move there in future. I wonder how many English located teachers are aware of new GTCS standards this summer, and the 2009, 2011 and 2012 changes to standards?
Depending on how long your wife has been out of the classroom, and how much CPD she has been allowed, she may have "missed the boat" on certain developments i.e. CfE.
Indeed, hence why she spent 4 years volunteering, attending training as a volunteer, working as classroom asssistant and nursery nurse, reading and engaging with Scottish system. NONE of this counts, is not recorded or required. Just 270 days in the classroom, on an ad-hoc basis with no need to plan, prepare or mark work - just stand in a room for a few hours in a day with a class. GTCS do not even have a system to record the days, or what she has done - mrs_oab is photocopying her timesheets, but some do not even state what agegroup she has worked with (central to the issues she faces).
It does seem excessively long and the pay cut is not right.
This^, plus rigid in application, with no accepting that situations may need a flixible approach.
So I guess that when rules change, being a professional in that industry and keeping up with what's going on I have had prior notice and time to make any changes I require to make.
Good job, because if Scotland gets independence there will be more barriers to employment put up from the other side of the fence/border. The rUK will want its own people employed before those of a different nation (as Scotland are doing now). Of that there is no doubt whatsoever.
My wife is a chartered H&S type. The HSE would no longer cover an independent Scotland and are well known for doing whatever they fell like on any given day.
matt_outandabout - MemberIndeed, hence why she spent 4 years volunteering, attending training as a volunteer, working as classroom asssistant and nursery nurse, reading and engaging with Scottish system. NONE of this counts, is not recorded or required
Genuine question- did she know this 4 years ago? Did she discuss it with the GTCS then? Or have the rules changed?
The GTCS webpage suggest all this (currently!) as things you should do. No she was not tol the voluntary was ignored in 2009.
.
We just had another email, backing down on the 135 days with older kids. Thier mistake, the rules have changed so often that they cannot keep up with what rules to apply to whom. 🙄
matt_outandabout - MemberThe GTCS webpage suggest all this (currently!) as things you should do. No she was not tol the voluntary was ignored in 2009.
That is incredibly shit. I suppose it could be useful from a personal point of view but recommending she does it then ignoring their own recommendation is proper bottom of the barrel.
15 years ago when mrs_oab trained, the qualification WAS valid in Scotland. Heck, in 2009 it was valid. So maybe we should 'cancel' your qualification and make you move?
Maybe if I took time out of my profession, relocated, then wanted to get back into it, then yes maybe my original qualification would have been 'cancelled' in the previous 4 years since I last checked.
I do hope you are keeping up with changes in Spain, maybe Ireland, or USA, just in case you want to move there in future. I wonder how many English located teachers are aware of new GTCS standards this summer, and the 2009, 2011 and 2012 changes to standards?
No, because I don't work in those places, so no need to keep up with their changes. If I planned to move to one of those countries in the future, and resume my career there, then yes, why wouldn't I keep up with changes?
Good job, because if Scotland gets independence there will be more barriers to employment put up from the other side of the fence/border. The rUK will want its own people employed before those of a different nation (as Scotland are doing now). Of that there is no doubt whatsoever.
And that may well happen, however I will see the changes coming and if I want to continue working in England then I will adapt and aim to meet the new criteria. Just as I would expect that if different systems were introduced cross border, it would work both ways.
Maybe if I took time out of my profession, relocated, then wanted to get back into it, then yes maybe my original qualification would have been 'cancelled' in the previous 4 years since I last checked.
We called GTCS in February 2009. Verbally we were both told that both our teaching qualifications stood. No mention of changes in the pipeline. We moved in April 2009, applied to GTCS, and missed the changes by a matter of weeks. I (had) Full Registration awarded, mrs_oab did not.
.
I struggle to see the future, and where jobs may arise. We took a job for me in Scotland, in part because we 'knew' from speaking to GTCS that mrs_oab could teach. Oh, hang on, she can, but only as supply, on less money...
Bollox to em matt
Come and live in Wales
As an engineer qualified in Scotland and working in Yorkshire for 20 years I have some sympathy.
The educational systems are different, but the content is pretty similar.
They are far removed from independant, if they were they would fight for teachers in a similar manner that the GMC does for doctors.
I think you're confusing the professional regulator (GMC) with the trade union (BMA).
as an aside FC wales were advertising for a recreational ranger a few months ago, and one criteria was conversational welsh or willingness to learn and demonstrate ability within 1 year of taking the post. this was in a role based in the HQ in the next valley over from afan ( IIRC ), so not the back of beyond, by any means.
sorry to hear of your problems OP. hope you get sorted.