[Closed] Weights, KBs and whatnot

See, olympic lifts always look quite explosive to me.

I still can't see how it's remotely the same thing.

What have you got against kettlebells? They are cheap and versatile and after all just a weight.

Losing fat is about 100% diet

No, but let's not go there on this thread.

Gym is not an option.

renegade rows [b]with kb[/b], suicide press ups, press up variations, yoga and pilates. [s]Go to a boxing gym.[/s]

Bear crawls, body weight get ups (stand up no hands from lying down), over head lunges, split squats, kb swings, turkish get ups the list goes on.

Gym is not an option.

I still can't see how it's remotely the same thing.

KB swings are explosive, so are olympic lifts. More than remotely the same thing, almost exactly the same thing, different lifts but same training effect.

KBs are just tools, I don't have anything against them, you're inferring things I haven't said.

How do you do training for olympic lifts? I'm assuming you mean a traditional bar with weights on each end, yes?

So you lift, then drop, wait a few seconds, lift, then drop etc yes?

KB swinging is nothing like that, it's much lower weight, continuously swinging for 50 or 100 reps or whatever, depending on the weight I suppose.

Seems to me to be a halfway house between traditional weights and traditional cardio...?

The book "Convict Conditioning" is great for this and pretty much covers all the bases.

It could just as easily be called 'Consultant Conditioning' I suppose 🙂 I do some stuff in my hotel room; I'll check out the book, could be useful.

[i]Losing fat is about 100% diet
No, but let's not go there on this thread.[/i]

Er, how can it not be? I know exersize plays a part, but fat loss is nearly all about what you're eating surely?

It's a complex interplay between what you eat, how much you eat, how much exercise you do and what kind of exercise you do, and your genes.

Edit: FWIW McHamish's routine is nice, but is not strength training, it is cardio.

My objective is primarily for cardio and fitness, but it's not purely cardio, it's more cardio/conditioning. Changes in body shape and muscle growth are indicative of that, although if I wanted significant muscle growth I'd be doing something different.

Based on what Molgrips has said I think my workout would be applicable, but I'll say what I always say when someone asks me about my workout - ask a professional first.

One of the benefits of doing tabata style circuits is it's flexible - you can do what you want, with what ever tools/equipment you've got. So if you're stuck in a hotel on business travel and there isn't a gym, you can do it in your room.

Press-ups, sit-ups, plank, squat thrusts, burpees, mountain climbers etc

These exercises can all be incorporated into my workout (although there are better core exercises than a plank so I don't bother with that). I do a different version of a burpee with the powerbag, do the squat thrust on with the bag, and instead of jumping up, pick up the bag and do a shoulder press.

Bear crawls, body weight get ups (stand up no hands from lying down), over head lunges, split squats, kb swings, turkish get ups the list goes on.

And those.

The weighted exercises can be with a light weight if you want to concentrate primarily on cardio, or you can use a heavier weight if you want more conditioning, possibly 60% 1RM.

You can incorporate more traditional exercises into the circuits such as deadlifts, clean and jerk, etc etc.

Basically, do what you want and go as hard as you can. My only reservation is make sure your form is spot on even if you're using light weight...cross fit style whilst I'm sure is great for some, it's also amazing for local chiropractors.

It's a complex interplay between what you eat, how much you eat, how much exercise you do and what kind of exercise you do, and your genes.

to summarise... calories in vs calories out, 😆

but for those with anger problems or the inability to accept any kinda summary that doesn't make them feel special.... lets throw in the further explanation that people are individuals and the rate at which those calories 'out' is dependent on their BMR.

Oh and I'm rubbish at nutrition...if I really want results with fat loss and conditioning I need to stop eating so much.

On that note, I'm off to the gym.

McHamish - thanks. The interesting part about your workout is that it seems to be time based. Not sure I could go that long with the heavier weight.. I really do need more KBs of different weight I think. Maybe alternate more time and less weight with less time and more weight.

to [s]summarise[/s] over-simplify to the point of damaging uselessness... calories in vs calories out

5x5 SL is great - but I got bored with just working out every other day.

Now do a 5 day split (still lots of compound moves/progressive load) and am still gaining. I do 3 x 6/8 and go up in kilo increments instead of the 2.5 that Mehdi suggests.

I'm in the best shape I have ever been in. Cardio is taken care of on the bike/martial arts/squash - and I can get through my workout in 50 minutes a day.

over-simplify to the point of damaging uselessness.

how it is damaging?

seriously...

it must be damaging to the worm in Molly's stomach that constantly needs feeding 😆

Ok, seriously - if people decide to turn over a new leaf and get fit and thin, and they think that they just have to restrict calories and do loads of exercise, they may well not get anywhere and end up miserable and disillusioned. A huge number of people start with good intentions and just give up. Often because they don't see results. If they were doing something different they might get much better results much more quickly.

I'm not talking about morbidly obese pie stuffers here mind.

You need fuel to exercise. If you have adequate fuel you can exercise really hard which can ultimately burn up more calories than the extra you've eaten. If you force yourself exercise hard and don't fuel appropriately you may feel like shit and get depressed.

It's like saying 'diesel is more efficient than petrol, so I'm going to fill my petrol car with diesel'.

Ok, seriously - if people decide to turn over a new leaf and get fit and thin, and they think that they just have to restrict calories and do loads of exercise, they may well not get anywhere and end up miserable and disillusioned. A huge number of people start with good intentions and just give up. Often because they don't see results. If they were doing something different they might get much better results much more quickly.

whats the 'different' they could be doing? is it different to something that could be summed up as calories out vs calories in?

I'm not talking about morbidly obese pie stuffers here mind.

everyone's on the spectrum at some point.... whether you've got 2 stone or 20 stone to lose, the theory is still the same no?

You need fuel to exercise. If you have adequate fuel you can exercise really hard which can ultimately burn up more calories than the extra you've eaten. If you force yourself exercise hard and don't fuel appropriately you may feel like shit and get depressed.

feeling like shit because you've exercised hard is different to feeling a bit depressed decause you've exercised.... feeling depressed cos you're knackered after exercise would suggest something else going on IMHO

It's like saying 'diesel is more efficient than petrol, so I'm going to fill my petrol car with diesel'.

huh? what i'm saying is that any diet no matter how complex, how finely tuned to the individual, how much it does or doesn't take into account genetics, BMR, hormone levels, lifestyle, diet choice, calorie sources and so forth.... to be effective needs to end up with a calorie deficit.

Ok, so were talking fat loss ( not fat loss [i]and [/i]hard exersize) that's nearly all about the food you eat. Granted doing both at the same time is hard work, but its doable. Buts that not what was said. What was said was "losing fat is nearly all about diet" which is about right.

to summarise... calories in vs calories out

If you don't eat the correct number of calories then you body slows it's metabolism down so it can be counter productive. Especially if you are exercising. Also are 1000 calories of chips the same as 1000 calories of baked mackerel fillet or 1000 calories of steamed broccoli?

[edit]

So you lift, then drop, wait a few seconds, lift, then drop etc yes?

Because they are big compound moves that are multi joint and activate a large amount of muscle fiber they are also cardio vascular exercises. Or at least that is my understanding.[/edit]

If you don't eat the correct number of calories then you body slows it's metabolism down so it can be counter productive. Especially if you are exercising. Also are 1000 calories of chips the same as 1000 calories of baked mackerel fillet or 1000 calories of steamed broccoli?

indeed the body does... thats why fat people have faster metabolisms and need more calories to maintain their overweightness 🙂

starving causes metabolism to slow down, exercising speeds it up... everyone's different so its about getting the balance right.

1000kcals is the same as 1000kcals, how the body processes it will change on the source of those kcals... some sources are better than others, i haven't said different to that

right, i've gotta take a patient out for the afternoon.... if somebody can find a diet that works which doesn't use (when taking every little detail into consideration as mentioned before) a total kcal deficit to achieve fat/weight loss.... please let me know 🙂

EDIT - even atkins etc works on the principle of cals in vs out, despite it being understood by many to be encouraging you to eat as much fatty meat as possible 😆

Because they are big compound moves that are multi joint and activate a large amount of muscle fiber they are also cardio vascular exercises. Or at least that is my understanding.

1000kcals is the same as 1000kcals,

Well for a start off yes you are correct 1 dietary calorie is in fact 1kcal.

However protein takes more energy to digest than other nutrients. SO surely that means 1000kcal of baked fish vs 1000kcal of deep fried chips have a different net calorific value once it has been eaten?

I am not claiming to be an expert but that is my understanding. So if your diet solely consisted of fish then yes going from 1000kcal to 900kcal would have the obvious affect yet going from 1000kcal of chips to 1000kcal of fish would not have the same affect right?

Used to do 5x5 and 531. I've now started doing Olympic lifts. One of the very first things I figured out was that trying to do sets of 5 for Clean & Jerk and Snatch at anywhere close to your 1RM is very very hard. Definitely the quickest way I've found to go from resting to max heart rate at any rate.

The thing I really like about OLing is that all I need is a bar and some weights in the garage (not very many weights either since I'm still lifting so little). The only other thing that is nice to have is something to rack the bar in if you want to do front squats.

r.e fish vs chips

you're correct, but that doesn't change the calories in vs calories out.

if it helps calories in should really be worded as 'calories absorbed into the body' to solve all the arguments about different foods, or silly examples like somebody putting 2000cals worth of sugar into a condom and swallowing it, only to be passed the other end. technically is calories in 🙄

2000cals worth of sugar into a condom and swallowing it

Standard Friday night in singletrackworld?

bruce, are you using bumper plates? The cost of those is the main thing holding me back from getting into olympic lifting.

whats the 'different' they could be doing? is it different to something that could be summed up as calories out vs calories in?

Well, a 1.5 hour mtb race is pretty different to a 100km all day cafe ride isn't it?

All these people banging on about calories - you know how they determine the calorific content of food? They burn it. Hardly a good model of energy consumption by the body, is it?

Different foods affect your body in completely different ways, so yes 1000kcal of mackerel is totally different to 1000kcal of chips.

Phil, as we've discussed a million times, you do need a calorie deficit, but achieving this and using it to lose fat effectively is vastly more difficult than you suggest.

feeling like shit because you've exercised hard is different to feeling a bit depressed decause you've exercised.

I'm not talking about depression, although it does affect your mood. I'm talking about general wellness.

whether you've got 2 stone or 20 stone to lose, the theory is still the same no?

No. You must be winding me up, I KNOW you haven't forgotten the last time we had this exact same conversation.

No, like I said I'm just starting out. I'm not anywhere near lifting weights that I can't safely lower.

TBH I think it'll be quite some time before I'm comfortable enough with my technique to start pushing for big lifts. My plan is to buy bumper plates as I progress which at my current rate means I'll be buying my first pair of 10kgs in 10 - 15 years 🙂

Whoa !, who kicked this one off again. I'm going to have to go back and read all that shit now.

[i]Sorry solo, I'm out of cookies.[/i]

No ?.... Well, can you guess who might have a cookie or two ?.
😉

Oooo.

[i]I would also like to do things that help me lose more fat.[/i]
Grips, you have the knowledge, you lack the discipline.

[i]feeling like shit because you've exercised hard is different to feeling a bit depressed decause you've exercised.... feeling depressed cos you're knackered after exercise would suggest something else going on IMHO[/i]
Agreed, I'm not sure how exercise could depress you, especially as physical exercise is widely thought to release endorfins and generally makes folk feel good.....
😉

[i]huh? what i'm saying is that any diet no matter how complex, how finely tuned to the individual, how much it does or doesn't take into account genetics, BMR, hormone levels, lifestyle, diet choice, calorie sources and so forth.... to be effective needs to end up with a calorie deficit.[/i]
Correct, energy entering the body has two uses, to be used as fuel, or to be stored for later. To be used as fuel.
You either use it or you store it.

[i]If you don't eat the correct number of calories then you body slows it's metabolism down so it can be counter productive.[/i]
Zeroing your exact number of cals wrt energy expenditure per day is not a practical approach to any kind of lifestyle I'd choose.
Furthermore, you run a caloric deficit for a day, your metabolism aint gonna slow down. Its been suggested that your body wont start to engage a reduction in BMR for lack of cals for upto 72 hours.
so thats may be 3 days of cal deficit, while having a normal (for you) BMR.

[i]1000kcals is the same as 1000kcals, how the body processes it will change on the source of those kcals... some sources are better than others, i haven't said different to that[/i]
I wouldn't have used the word [i]better[/i], but thats about right, imo. Good cals, Bad cals, etc, etc.

[i]if somebody can find a diet that works which doesn't use (when taking every little detail into consideration as mentioned before) a total kcal deficit to achieve fat/weight loss.... please let me know[/i]

Picolax ?.

[i]Phil, as we've discussed a million times, you do need a calorie deficit, but achieving this and using it to lose fat effectively is vastly more difficult than you suggest.[/i]
No, its not, its quite easy, provided you have a few tools to hand.
An awareness of good cals, bad cals and Discipline.

[i]I'm not talking about depression, although it does affect your mood. I'm talking about general [b]wellness[/b].[/i]
Bit of a flakey term that, I don't buy it.

OP. How long has it been since you started all this stuff, iDave diet, training, training, training. 1200W, etc, etc, before and after pics, etc, etc, ? ?.

Its got to be a couple of years now. So, have you made any progress ?.
Are you leaner, lighter, fitter than 2 years ago ?.
If so, please detail.

In the meanwhile, heres my thoughts. Late night running about, poor adherence to a correct, sustainable diet and general whingey flim-flam will consign that person to experiencing great difficulty in achieving the goals such as mentioned by a few folk here.

Anyone wanting to [i]improve[/i] perhaps ought to, imo, sort there diet out and adhere to it. Get a good nights sleep. Employ both cardio workouts and do resistance work. Lay off the cookies. Run a caloric deficit.

In the last two years I've managed to sort my diet, I cycle good and lift heavy. I sleep well and at conventional times. I have had significant change in body composition, I am leaner, fitter and more muscular than before I started.
My routine is enjoyable, sustainable and flexible.

I'm nobody special, I wasn't particularly fat when I started, but I just got on with it.

In the meanwhile, heres my thoughts. Late night running about, poor adherence to a correct, sustainable diet and general whingey flim-flam

I didn't ask for patronising lifestyle advice. I asked about weights. You may consider me a whingey flim flam if you like but you really have no idea.

[i]You may consider me a whingey flim flam if you like but you really have no idea.[/i]

Nah, not me mate. I'm silly, remember ?.
😉

EDIT:
[i]I asked about weights[/i]

All the equipment in the world, this side of liposuction, isn't going to result in weight loss, without the diet and the will to do it [i]right[/i].

I'm nobody special, I wasn't particularly fat when I started, but I just got on with it.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

LoL @ Alex222

I see where I've gone wrong now, no beard !.

Doh !.
😆

All the equipment in the world, this side of liposuction isn't going to result in weight loss, without the diet and the will to do it right

Obviously.

But I may as well get the best 'it' I can, don't you think? Whilst I am sat at work doing not much?

[i]Obviously.

But I may as well get the best 'it' I can, don't you think? Whilst I am sat at work doing not much[/i]

Save your money, sort yourself out first.

Probably time better spent than calling someone who has achieved their goals, [i]Silly[/i].
😉

In my opinion, its some folk who are their biggest problem, not a lack of kit.
Just my opinion.

Well if you read the thread I want to avoid spending any money.

Just follow this guys routine. At least I think he is human.

This are unreal.

[i]Well if you read the thread I want to avoid spending any money.[/i]

Why avoid spending money ?, was my first thought, but then if you read the thread, then you'll see that, avoiding spending money is exactly what I have suggested.
😉

But...

[i]molgrips - Member
but when you can do 100 you'll be bored stupid so you'll have to think of something to make it harder
[b]Like buy a heavier KB[/b]...?[/i]

[i]KB workouts are not the same as bar lifts though are they? I just saw an adjustable kettlebell on Amazon - £250 though[/i]
Errr, why you lookin ?....

[i]molgrips - Member
I have 9, 12 and 24. I could do with an 18 perhaps, not sure.

Of course a full set would be ideal...[/i]
That would require a purchase, I'm thinking....

I'm not gonna bother.

[i]I'm not gonna bother.[/i]

At least you're consistent.

Have a good weekend.

I'm out.