[Closed] Vegan's arses

Would it be helpful if I point out that my childhood home was a dairy farm before we further this discussion?

So why would you think that no cows are harmed in the production of milk? 🙄

What do you think happens to nearly all the little boy cows that are born in a dairy herd?

So why would you think that no cows are harmed in the production of milk?

Where was that actually said?

Short of owning your own cow, the collateral damage is unavoidable, other than going vegan. Couldn't do that, plastic shoes, just try them.. and too many cars I like sitting in have leather seats...
However I've never claimed to be motivated primarily by animal welfare myself, and whilst I don't eat meat I have no problem with others doing so provided it was well looked after. Fact is, I just don't really like it.

I have STW-scientific level proof it's genetic too - family of 5, 4 veggies and one (youngest, 4) only wants to eat sausages. And not THOSE sausages daddy, the NICE ones..

Where was that actually said?

You know you can get milk from cows without killing them, yes? Wow, wait till you hear about how we get wool!

Also lots is significantly less year on year as it's easier and cheaper to use the chemically produced stuff than oxblood and swimbladder extract.

Pretty sure 6X has added rat to give it a kick. I just try not to think about 😉

You know you [b]can[/b] get milk from cows without killing them, yes?

is not equal to:

no cows are harmed in the production of milk?

.. but carry on.

You know you can get milk from cows without killing them, yes?

is not equal to:

no cows are harmed in the production of milk?

.. but carry on.

It is in the context of modern dairy farming.

I've always wondered - do vegans breast feed?*

I just put this question to the nearest vegan (Mrs MR) and her look was withering, pitying and incredulous in equal measures.

Somewhat like my reactions to the 'discussion' about cyclists hosted by Alan Titchmarsh with Christopher Biggins and a load of old Daily Mail readers! What can I say?

So why would you think that no cows are harmed in the production of milk?

I didn't say that. I'm saying that it's not the same thing. If I let you kick me in the shins, can I stab you in the face and we're even? Your argument is black and white and, as ever, it's Not That Simple. By interpolation your only valid lifestyle choices here are "omnivore" or "vegan and a member of PETA."

Of course there are issues around some dairy farming, and I don't doubt that there are some horrendous practices employed by some farmers. I'm also pretty sure that there are plenty of ethical farmers who care greatly about their livestock. I was actually on a dairy farm a couple of months back and watched the cows being milked; they looked like pretty well looked-after, contented bovines to me. I expect they'd look a little more concerned if Pete had been sat there quietly pulling beef out of them. So to speak.

Anyway. What do [i]you[/i] think happens to male calves? I can tell you if you like. Do you think they plop out of mummy and the farmer goes "blast, another boy" and ****s it over the head like Pontius Pilate?

6 days and on a ferry to france for a nice one way holiday

I didn't say that. I'm saying that it's not the same thing. If I let you kick me in the shins, can I stab you in the face and we're even? Your argument is black and white and, as ever, it's Not That Simple.

I have no problem with dairy farming.

I was not criticising the farmers.

However, the strangest ones are the veggies who say they are veggie because they object to animals being slaughtered to feed us and then go on and drink milk and eat butter.

My point being that if you drink milk from the supermarket then you must accept that a large number of animals were killed to allow you to do so.

My point being that if you drink milk from the supermarket then you must accept that a large number of animals were killed to allow you to do so.

Is "from the supermarket" your point now and you've just moved the goalposts?

Regardless. You're saying that the farming industry uses bovines for meat and for milk, so because some are killed for beef, drinking milk is wrong? Or do you genuinely think that every farm has a big male calf skip out the back?

The vast majority of male calves, in Britain at any rate, end up as beef stock. As in, they're raised for beef, I'm not talking about Bisto. The rest are sold for veal. Farmers are a thrifty lot, they're not about to let stuff go to waste if they can help it. Artificial insemination can also limit the number of male births to some extent.

If you want her to give you a real answer Malvern follow (my) stupid question up with an even more stupid one and ask:

"So whats the difference between you and a cow?"

Please be aware asking this may result in losses not limited to a)privileges, b)limbs c)life

However, the strangest ones are the veggies who say they are veggie because they object to animals being slaughtered to feed us and then go on and drink milk and eat butter.

Not so strange if they are unaware of the 'implications' of industrial scale dairy farming, or even finding it difficult to quit cheese etc. Our household is mostly vegan, except my wife loves cheese and we pay a good price for locally made cheese from a small herd that are treated well for their lives. This is the only dairy product she eats (her veganism is on ethical grounds) Some militant vegan somewhere would no doubt shout this down, just as would one of those militant omnivores (who refer to themselves as 'carnivores'). But they can all cock off, really. It is tiresome being constantly judged and second-guessed by people who are demanding that it is actually 'you' that has the problem by not eating what it is that they eat. I've lost count of the times my wife has had to 'defend' her choice against pre-emptively offended non-vegans, and then she still gets accused (by the same people) of being 'evangelical' (she isn't at all, never mentions it until unavoidable, never requests anyone else to join her) or of 'guilt-tripping' people (projection?). It would be funny if it wasn't so horribly dull. She was brayed out of the local farmers market one day for not tasting the sausages (long story, but actually funny) - you can't make this stuff up.

So often the people who are most vocal about freedom to choose are often the one's who are most angry/offended when others make different choices from themselves.

A mate of mine is a vagamatarian.
When he drops his guts it's like a stinking commercial full wheelie bin open in the height of summer.
REALLY bad.

Cougar with the collapsing price of milk and the rise of on farm AD I can see a time where farmers are keeping animals just for their poo*

*Not entirely serious but not to far fetched.

Is "from the supermarket" your point now and you've just moved the goalposts?

Regardless. You're saying that the farming industry uses bovines for meat and for milk, so because some are killed for beef, drinking milk is wrong? Or do you genuinely think that every farm has a big male calf skip out the back?

The vast majority of male calves, in Britain at any rate, end up as beef stock. As in, they're raised for beef, I'm not talking about Bisto. The rest are sold for veal. Farmers are a thrifty lot, they're not about to let stuff go to waste if they can help it. Artificial insemination can also limit the number of male births to some extent.

Cougar - have you actually read my post?

I used "supermarket" as if I hadn't someone would of mentioned some local, 4 cow herd that they get their milk from.

I don't think you understand the point I am making.

I will state again.

[b]I do not have a problem with diary farming or beef farming for that matter.[/b]

I happily eat veal.

The vast majority of male calves, in Britain at any rate, end up as beef stock. As in, they're raised for beef, I'm not talking about Bisto. The rest are sold for veal.

They are a by product of the diary farm and cannot be avoided. Some veggies are either ignorant of this or chose to ignore it.

I've lost count of the times my wife has had to 'defend' her choice against pre-emptively offended non-vegans, and then she still gets accused (by the same people) of being 'evangelical' (she isn't at all, never mentions it until unavoidable, never requests anyone else to join her) or of 'guilt-tripping' people (projection?). It would be funny if it wasn't so horribly dull.

Amen, brother.

I mention it when it comes up in conversation, when I think it might be interesting or relevant, or when people won't take "no, actually, I wouldn't like a free sample of your delicious sausages, but thanks anyway" as an answer. I've never evangelised, and never judged anyone else for what they eat. I couldn't care less what anyone else shovels down their gullets and fail to see why what I choose to eat is anyone else's business.

In all honesty, most of the time I'd just quite like to be able to sit and eat my dinner in peace without some cockwomble going "but, but, wwwhhhyyyyyy?!?!" at me. And the horse you rode in on, I don't have to justify my diet to you.

...follow (my) stupid question up with an even more stupid one and ask:"So whats the difference between you and a cow?"

I just did. She just said 'Oh dear' , in a quite flat tone, and looked into the middle distance.

Think she's heard all the vegan,vegetarian and sexist 'jokes' before' ;-). I'm out!

For those struggling with the definition of vegan, why not read the Vegan Society's?

http://www.vegansociety.com/try-vegan/definition-veganism

And the horse you rode in on

That is not vegan.

I used "supermarket" as if I hadn't someone would of mentioned some local, 4 cow herd that they get their milk from.

Fair enough.

I don't think you understand the point I am making.

I will state again.

I do not have a problem with diary farming or beef farming for that matter.

I don't know where you got the idea from that I thought you had. The problem you have, and the one I was replying to back in those heady days of an hour ago, is with people that are vegetarian (as opposed to vegan or omnivore). I'm just trying to get to the root of this, which is proving tricky as you seem determined not to actually reply to anything I'm posting.

That is not vegan.

Course it is, it only eats grass, apples and sugar-free Polo mints.

my wife has had to 'defend' her choice against pre-emptively offended non-vegans, and then she still gets accused (by the same people) of being 'evangelical'

Even when I was vegan enough to describe myself as one, I was always reluctant to use the term. Your average joe is so ignorant of what it means that you might as well tell them you're a vulcan. On the flip side I've come across many omnivores who will go to ridiculous lengths to not offend. I've lost count of the number of times someone has asked if it's ok if they have a bacon sandwich in my presence in case I'm offended by the smell. They're usually a bit shocked when I reply 'go ahead, I really like the smell of bacon'.

I've lost count of the number of times someone has asked if it's ok if they have a bacon sandwich in my presence in case I'm offended by the smell. They're usually a bit shocked when I reply 'go ahead, I really like the smell of bacon'.

I can't stand the smell of bacon, I think it's revolting. But I'd never dream of being arrogant enough to tell someone else they couldn't have a bacon butty if they wanted one.

I do appreciate the sentiment, even if it's a little misguided. In a restaurant once, a fellow diner went "I think I'll have the steak..." then looked at me in horror and added, "erm, is that all right?" Sure, unless you're expecting me to help you eat it. What's it got to do with me what you order?

In all honesty, most of the time I'd just quite like to be able to sit and eat my dinner in peace without some cockwomble going "but, but, wwwhhhyyyyyy?!?!" at me. And the horse you rode in on, I don't have to justify my diet to you.

I now understand what you are upset about.

You are the "animal welfare veggie" that still eats dairy.

You don't want any fluffy animals harmed for your diet but modern intensive dairy farming is fine so you can have your latte and some nice Stilton at Christmas.

I don't expect you to "justify" your diet.

It's obviously my ignorance that I can't get my head around that the suffering of beef cattle, chickens etc. is unacceptable but the fate of dairy cows is OK to you. Not to mention the very intensive methods that are necessary to ensure any profitability.

You are the "animal welfare veggie" that still eats dairy.

Wrong and getting wronger all the time.

Excellent Not heard that one before. The vegan bingo sheet needs a new square: "If people didn't eat meat, we'd have no fertiliser to grow vegetables for all the vegetarians to eat".

The massive organic carrot farm I worked on in student holidays fertilised the carrots with the waste from the massive chicken farm up the road, as well as commercial pelleted chicken waste fertlizer. The stuff from the farm was full of bits of dead chicken and was stored in massive piles by the fields, in the piles lived hundreds of the biggest rats I've ever seen. The whole lot would be shovelled into the spreader and onto the carrots, certainly put us off eating the carrots as we weeded them!

Amazing how many get upset when told that lots of wine and beer is not vegetarian because of things like finings

I've also worked in a malt factory and lets just say there is always going to be a little taste of pigeon, mouse and rat in your beer 😉 Just no way of keeping them out.

I don't expect you to "justify" your diet.

Just so we're clear btw, I wasn't addressing you directly in that little rantette. I was generalising about people, er, generally, not accusing you of judging me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I don't think you can be vegetarian for ethical reasons, it doesn't add up.

For health or environmental reasons, you might have a point. But go vegan if you actually care about animal welfare.

I don't think you can be vegetarian for ethical reasons, it doesn't add up.

For health or environmental reasons, you might have a point. But go vegan if you actually care about animal welfare.

That's a very binary way of looking at it, in the real world even going vegan isn't going to stop all animal suffering either.

Please nobody tell the Muslimiacs that UK vegetables are fertilised with pig slurry....

Family fecal transplant is in order - [url= http://thepowerofpoop.com/epatients/fecal-transplant-instructions/how-to-make-fecal-transplant-capsules/ ]Poo in this[/url] from what I understand you have to basically crap into one of these[img] [/img]

and then give it to someone to eat.

I am presuming that they aren't to scale those images.

---

On a side note - I googled gel caps to find a stock photo and found this

[img] [/img]

Wierd

That's a very binary way of looking at it, in the real world even going vegan isn't going to stop all animal suffering either.

I accept that but it's not a justification for not trying. Even the vegan society's definition states "as far as possible".

I was told years ago that my bike tyres contained animal derived stearate. So we wrote to the manufaturers and now there's a list of tyres which use vegetable based stearate. Etc.

I don't think you can be vegetarian for [b]ethical[/b] reasons, it doesn't add up.

I acknowledge I'm being a pedant but ethics does not stop at animal welfare - environmental concern is just as much an ethical topic as animal rights.

Fair point, lazy typing on my part!

Bigjim, I love those 'revenge' stories when stupid, uppity self-righteous vegans get a bit of meat surreptitiously slipped into 'em!

It has an illicit, tabloid-satisfying kind of rape-story feel about it for sure!

Real question: Did it ever occur to you that the buyers might wish to know that their organic carrots were grown via industrial chicken waste?

I don't think you can be vegetarian for ethical reasons, it doesn't add up.

That's a long piece of string. My friends milk their own goat, farm their own free-range eggs, grow own veg using compost from rescued horses and sheep. You could argue on ethical grounds that the chickens and goat aren't happy as they would be skipping across town and country, free/untethered/un-penned - but really?

Real question: Did it ever occur to you that the buyers might wish to know that their organic carrots were grown via industrial chicken waste?

Not to me, my parents always grew vegetables fertilized by manure from the farm up the road, and the fields around us would get slurry and muck spread on them all the time, so it's totally normal to me.

I guess a lot of people, particularly city dwellers, have no understanding of how agriculture works, so might be surprised animal farming waste is used to grow organic vegetables rather than jesus' tears and pixie dust.

I'm not sure what the deal is with human sewage as fertilizer in the UK, certainly very common overseas, so that would be a 4th level to the vegetable/animal argument cycle... or a 5th level if it is poo from humans from vegetables made by animals made by vegetables made by....

jesus' tears and pixie dust.

You're probably right! Organic veggie buyers are as dumb as that. If you can slip them some chemicals and meat they're twice as dumb. No wonder people hate them.

I'm not sure what the deal is with human sewage as fertilizer in the UK, certainly very common overseas,

We grow our tree nursery from human waste, would be perfectly happy to grow veg too but the 'ick' factor puts people off so use the horse and sheep manure. We feel it's right to tell the end-user exactly where their food is from as it's an educational/sustainability project and they come for those reasons. Some seem disappointed that we don't use humanure for veg, but they are in the minority.

Organic veggie buyers are as dumb as that. If you can slip them some chemicals and meat they're twice as dumb. No wonder we hate them.

I don't think they are, I think a lot of people don't know where their food comes from though. I largely buy organic veg, would much rather cow poop went onto the land rather than horrible chemicals. Doubt there is much of a real health argument to organic/non organic, for me it is more the environmental side of it.

I think a lot of people don't know where their food comes from though.

I expect there's plenty who don't [i]want [/i]to know.

for me it is more the environmental side of it.

Me too (as a town-dwelling organic producer/buyer)

Hence being surprised that it's deemed ok to flog organic carrots produced via industrial chicken waste? Don't tell me, organic chicken waste from organic chickens that have been fed on industrial pork and bovine waste ??

You could argue on ethical grounds that the chickens and goat aren't happy as they would be skipping across town and country, free/untethered/un-penned - but really?

They raise turkeys in the farm next to me for Christmas. Very well catered for, with a field, trees to perch on, toys etc.

The majority still just huddle in the barn together - they actually feel happier and more secure when 'penned'. Think much the same is true for chickens, at least mine always seem more than happy to go back to their roost.

Real question: Did it ever occur to you that the buyers might wish to know that their organic carrots were grown via industrial chicken waste?

I guess we would need a special classification of vegetarian carrots as the spec is just organic, not animal free

The majority still just huddle in the barn together - they actually feel happier and more secure when 'penned'.

There is a strong argument that barn reared chickens, kept in good conditions are a lot happier than free range. They feel safe and secure from attack by birds of prey and hence less stressed.

I guess we would need a special classification of vegetarian carrots

Hence being surprised that it's deemed ok to flog organic carrots produced via industrial chicken waste?

I doubt there is any organic veg grown without animal waste? I'm not sure how they would fertilize it otherwise, but I don't know much beyond my own experience. Can't imagine veg is grown just to be fertilizer.

actually yes there is

EDIT: just read what else you have said and not feeding you

[s]Maybe we should just accept that carrots are inherently evil?[/s]

Edit: Sorry that was too inane to let it stand.

not as evil as onions.
they're eye watering when chopping.
then eye watering very soon after consumption too.

I doubt there is any organic veg grown without animal waste?

Animal waste (esp chicken litter/manure) is excellent fertiliser, my surprise was not at animal waste but that it was from a 'massive chicken farm' which I (maybe wrongly?) assumed was an industrial operation along with the antibiotics and pathogens etc that usually come with waste from such places. I'm all for more transparency allowing buyers to decide.

The issue of course with letting people decide Malvern is it requires them to think first, and if you need proof that that's beyond most people look back at some of the comments on this thread (mine included).

Most (of course I can't quantify this but it's definitely more than one) people would be very challenged by organic anything that wasn't portrayed as an easy way for the middle class to [s]make prince Charles richer[/s] save the world and feel better about their choice dinner.

The issue of course with letting people decide Malvern is it requires them to think first,

I don't expect that "would you like to pay extra to have your food sprayed with chicken excrement, sir?" would've boosted the sales of Waitrose organic carrots.

Many people are under the impression that organic = no pesticides rather than only pesticides from an approved list so wouldn't surprise me if people have other misconceptions.

Many people are under the impression that organic = no pesticides rather than only pesticides from an approved list so wouldn't surprise me if people have other misconceptions.

^this, and this also applies to eg antibiotics, don't think you can blanket treat by default but unwell animals can receive antibiotics etc.

my surprise was not at animal waste but that it was from a 'massive chicken farm' which I (maybe wrongly?) assumed was an industrial operation along with the antibiotics and pathogens etc that usually come with waste from such places

I don't see why you consider chicken waste is different from cow or anything else. even if the originating farm is organic, there will still be antibiotics etc used to treat sick animals, obviously much less than where drugs are routinely fed to animals. [i]Why trust one poo and not the other? That's politics innit.[/i]

actually yes there is

cool, what do they use? I know things like seaweed can be used at a small scale but on a commercial supermarket scale operation I don't know what they use.

There is a strong argument that barn reared chickens, kept in good conditions are a lot happier than free range. They feel safe and secure from attack by birds of prey and hence less stressed.

That's not too far removed from comments in an early part of the book The Life of Pi, where he talks about zoo animals, who have their nutritional needs met and are safe from predators/rivals, compared to wild animals who each day wonder if they're going to be killed or starve. I do of course appreciate that this is a story, not a conclusive animal psychology study, but still, maybe some logic there.

actually yes there is
cool, what do they use?

Quite right cougar

sprayed with chicken excrement

Personally I prefer the idea of man made sodium benzoate (random choice, no clue what it is) to the natural additives likely sourced from places I wouldn't buy the precursor from on ethical grounds. Of course the chemical crap is probably worse for the world but it's easier to empathise with a cow than a melting polar ice cap.

Would it be helpful if I point out that my childhood home was a dairy farm before we further this discussion?

Best retort ever...? Perhaps!

never judged anyone else for what they eat. I couldn't care less what anyone else shovels down their gullets and fail to see why what I choose to eat is anyone else's business.

Here! Hear!

kayak23 - Member
These threads truly suck.
It's usually the case that those who don't really question the consequences of anything that they do too often are desperate to catch out those who do, on any little thing they possibly can.
Presumably to justify their viewpoint, or perhaps lack of viewpoint.

Anything humans can do to lighten their footprint on the huge strain we as a species create on world resources is surely a good thing?

There isn't a single one of us walking this earth who is morally whiter than white (except maybe Felicity Kendal) so if you are doing something that isn't entirely selfish, then more power to ya...

Yep, pretty well this.

I've only skimmed through the thread after this point as people are banging on about poo in fertilizer and a rat fallen in a distillery. I dread to think how many insects I've killed since becoming largely vegan. There's some more ammo for ya 😉 Anyway carry on....

The issue of course with letting people decide Malvern is it requires them to think first

All the more reason for more information, not less? Or are you under the impression that the silly simpletons who choose to buy organic are better off kept completely uneducated?

Personally, my fluffy little head wouldn't be moved to open my tight wallet for organic carrots if those organic carrot people paid a massive battery farm for its chicken waste.

Here! Hear!

Bloody autocorrect!

Do they carry little alcohol wipes for the door handles too?

It's not me, guv. Honest.

Personally, my fluffy little head wouldn't be moved to open my tight wallet for organic carrots if those organic carrot people paid a massive battery farm for its chicken waste.

Battery farms have been illegal in the UK for a few years now.

Doesn't affect me anyway, I use rechargeables.