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Open up your speakers and amp and gave a look at how they are wired inside. Bet its not with ultra expensive unobtanium multi strand oxygen free copper wire or whatever.
Really can't see the point of expensive speaker cables if the first and last few inches are almost bell wire.
Open up your speakers and amp and gave a look at how they are wired inside. Bet its not with ultra expensive unobtanium multi strand oxygen free copper wire or whatever.
Er they are actually but the rest of your comment is spot on.
Open up your speakers and amp and gave a look at how they are wired inside. Bet its not with ultra expensive unobtanium multi strand oxygen free copper wire or whatever.
Really can't see the point of expensive speaker cables if the first and last few inches are almost bell wire.
My thoughts exactly. They may be short runs but they are utter cr@p. And if anyone can explain the benefit of bi-wiring with science and not magic audiophile pixey dust I'm all ears.
I reckon my hi-fi sounds much better now I've put some holograms on the speakers.
kimber cables..
I have a pair of British made relatively expensive speakers and they are certainly not wired with Gucci cables inside! Neither was my Cambridge Audio amp.
[i]Mr Woppit - Member
NAIM NAC A5[/i]
Naim Amp = NAIM speaker cable. I can't believe you have had a NAIM Amp for 20 years and not used their cables. But, admittedly I used Nordost for 10 years with a NAIM amp before I saw, or rather heard, the error of my ways 😀
I second, or third, or whatever, the Van Damme suggestion. Cheap, capable and very well regarded by those that know, or have nothing better to do, or whatnot.
I am a bloke, have been called Rich all my life. If the doubts about my gender persist, I may be forced to post supporting photographic evidence 😯 Trust me TurnerGuy, no-one works in HiFi for the money!
To gain audible loudness from changing speaker cables requires an increase of 1dB output. This means that with an 8 ohm speaker the previous cable had a resistance of more than 2 ohms. If the old cable was cheap bell wire then the runs would need to be 100' long. Do you live in the Palace of Versailles?
Never forget that you can't hear without using your brain, and the power of the placebo effect is stronger than
The Force when it comes to psychoacoustics!
There is actually a reason why biwiring makes a difference - a speaker designer told me once but I have forgotten now.
However he also pointed out that the designer would not voice the speaker (for those who don't just use computers but listen) using the speaker biwired and would also use fairly normal cable like the Van Damme.
By playing around bi-wiring and using different types of cable for the bass and treble drivers you are basically overriding the expertise of the speaker designer.
I'm good friends with a reviewer from the worlds most highly esteemed hi-fi mag.. and so I've had the rare priviledge to have listened to an awful lot of kit and cable.. and I've also had endless opportunities to compare huge varieties of combinations of cabling and kit [i]back to back[/i] from the comfort of home with the benefit of time.. (and good food and wine and music)
there is an undeniable and remarkable difference in the quality of sound when using different cables..
it's got absolutely nothing to do with loudness and everything to do with depth... richness and quality of sound..
And if anyone can explain the benefit of bi-wiring with science and not magic audiophile pixey dust I'm all ears.
Me too. However, having bi wired and bi amped, there is a huge difference.
I think it's got something to do with the fact there's no crossover. Although that should only affect the middle range, whereas what happens when you bi wire/amp is you get way way more at the top and bottom as well as a much clearer middle.
My cheap bi-amped system now sounds far clearer than anything else in my price range and anything I've listened to at five times the price. So I'm a bit locked in. No way I could go back to one amp. The only thing I would ever upgrade to for purely sonic reasons would be another 2x power + control setup.
Until those comparisons are done in a true double blind ABX fashion then I will not believe them, the brain is too easily swayed by other external information. I'm fortunate to work in this field and it's endlessly fascinating but cable voodoo does not stack up.
it's got absolutely nothing to do with loudness and everything to do with depth... richness and quality of sound..
+1
As I only had 2x 1.5m cable run, I had some £60/m stuff I blagged when buying my amp a while back. Out of interest I wired them up with my old Silver anniversary stuff first, then swapped. The difference was pretty astounding in my system.
How can I get a working bi-amp system then? Two identical amps? How is it all wired up?
True biamping with an active crossover and EQ can work very well indeed - Linkwitz takes this approach with his amazing Orion designs. Biamping with passive crossovers is a waste of money, biwiring likewise. You can't do multi-way loudspeakers without some kind of crossover be it active or passive electrical, acoustical or mechanical.
You can either use one mono (or a stereo power amp bridged for mono) amp per speaker or if your speakers have bi wire connections you can use one stereo power amp for bass and once for treble.
It's pretty easy to do.
There are many diagrams on line.
I tend to agree with the post above if you're going for many amps best but costly to go active.
Lots of people like speakers without or with the bare minimum of crossovers mine for example have one component in the crossover to stop the tweeters blowing.
Aarghh, it's like talking to scientologists!!! 😉
No convincing arguments yet then! I can accept biamping improves things but would say it's a result of the extra power on tap. I still can't see how biwiring helps.
the brain is too easily swayed by other external information
that's a valid point... and not one that I would care to debate..
the cheapest and most effective upgrade for any hi-fi system is a 400 microgramme dose of good LSD
Until those comparisons are done in a true double blind ABX fashion then I will not believe them, the brain is too easily swayed by other external information.
Well that's a flawed statement anyway you muppet.
You're saying you'll only believe there is a difference is someone can hear a difference based on a double blind test in order to remove the possibility that the differece they are hearing is all in their mind.
Well der! Of course it's all in their mind, how else are they hearing it? Whatever it is they 'believe' they are hearing differently [i]is [/i]what they are hearing differently.
Besides, are you really sitting there and suggesting that you are better qualified to define my experience of reality than I am?
Have you any idea how stupid that makes you look?
Geetee on that basis change your mind and your reality changes. I did and it saved me a small fortune in cables that make no difference.
Joolsburger that's great; I have no problem with that either.
I use very ordinary NAC A5 in my system. I've auditioned cable that cost £1000 for two 3m runs and there was an audible difference in the character of the sound. I couldn't work out whether that was different better, different worse or just different so I didn't bother buying it.
I have heard what I perceived to be both a difference and an improvement in other systems between different wiring looms as well.
What I don't understand is why the majority of sceptics seem happy to concede that changing components will have an impact on the quality of the reproduction, but not the speaker cables or the rest of the loom.
Yeah, what perplexes me about biwiring, is that it's all coming out of the same source at the amp, isn't it? So what's the point of removing that little gold plated link bit, and running wire into the bass and treble contacts?
Personaly, I think a lot of hi-fi stuff is utter guff, and the kit is bought by middle-aged blokes with diminished hearing anyway, simply as status symbols. I appreciate that some expensive kit sounds better than 'budget' or cheap gear, but I'd rather take the word of sound engineers who have proper scientific qualifications in this stuff, and who use electrical flex to wire up concert halls, than hi-fi buffs who swear blind they can tell the difference between cables and other such stuff, when science can prove they can't.
Yeah so some NAIM gear might sound better than stuff a tenth of it's price, but there's an awful lot of snake oil surrounding 'hi-fi'.
That Russ Andrews bloke, in particular, needs a slapping.
The point of ABX blind testing is that if you can consistently correctly identify whether X is A or B, when X is randomly changed without your knowledge then you can hear a difference. Without this you can subconsciously will yourself to hear a difference whenever you're listening to what you believe is the superior item. Sorry.
Well that's a flawed statement anyway you muppet
the flaw in CGGs argument.. and the glowing neon sign above CCG that proclaims muppet.. is the fact that CGG is trying to construct an argument based on volume gained.. (of a whole flippin decibel ferchrissakes!!)
from this we can assume that CCG has absolutely no flipping clue what is being discussed in this thread..
and any work that CGG does in this field or any other is nothing to do with hi-fi or audiophilia
Personaly, I think a lot of hi-fi stuff is utter guff, and the kit is bought by middle-aged blokes with diminished hearing anyway, simply as status symbols. I appreciate that some expensive kit sounds better than 'budget' or cheap gear, but I'd rather take the word of sound engineers who have proper scientific qualifications in this stuff, and who use electrical flex to wire up concert halls, than hi-fi buffs who swear blind they can tell the difference between cables and other such stuff, when science can prove they can't.Yeah so some NAIM gear might sound better than stuff a tenth of it's price, but there's an awful lot of snake oil surrounding 'hi-fi'.
I kind of lose track of how many times you contradict yourself in this statement Elfin.
Can you just clarify something for me.
Are you saying that there is potentially a difference between how one system sounds versus another or are you saying that there is never ANY difference between any system you care to sample?
I have to say that the great think about hi-fi snake oil is that it is very good for the economy.
The dB point was regarding one example earlier. So how many crossovers have you designed? 😉
Not the kind of thread I normally get involved in. However.... this one's so amusing that I couldn't resist.
Part of my job is in professional audio - stadiums, theatres etc - some of it gigs, the majority permanent install - I often design the systems.
You won't find these really quite ridiculous pixie-dust cables used anywhere in professional context. Most pro users will have cables made from bog-standard 2core or 4core x 2.5mm or 4mm dependent on use - £2 per metre tops. Van Damme stuff if you're feeling a bit more flush.
You won't find these really quite ridiculous pixie-dust cables used anywhere in professional context. Most pro users will have cables made from bog-standard 2core or 4core x 2.5mm or 4mm dependent on use - £2 per metre tops. Van Damme stuff if you're feeling a bit more flush.
cos it's cost effective..
besides the fact that you wouldn't pick up the difference between a few hertz here and there on the midrange with the ambient sound of joe public milling around the acoustic monstrosities that you work on..
So how many production crossovers or enclosures have you designed?
none.. but your free party rigs/car stereo boomboxes etc are a gazillion miles away from the listening experience of an audiophile..
Yes I accept there are differences between the sound from different systems, and I know from experience a system costing several grand [i]can[/i] sound better than one costing a couple of hundred quid, but stuff like what Russ andrews comes out with is just utter bullshit. Let's be honest.
Makes me laugh, some of the systems I've seen in some people's houses; twenty thousand pounds plus worth of kit, in a bog standard new build house with cavity walls, laminate flooring, soft furnishings etc. Complete and utter waste of money. I've actually heard such systems in rooms so acoustically bad, you'd be just as well off with a 'budget' £300 Richer Sounds set-up. Had to stop meself from laughing listening to blokes with less than good hearing, waffle on about how fantastic their hi-fi sounds. Do me a favour.
Elfin's Top Tip to improve the sound of [i]any[/i] system:
[img] 
[/img]
Raw materials available in most inner city estates, as well as some 'trendy' parts of town...
you elfin knows it
AH OK well that argument I can go with Elfin.
What is it you do that takes you into these peoples' houses?
Just people I've known, Geetee.
No I'm sorry; there's only so much the Human ear can actually hear, and this ability diminishes with age. Hence my bemusement at blokes in their forties and fifties spending silly money on hi-fi gear they truly won't be able to fully appreciate. And when it comes to the kind of crap people like Russ Andrews spout, well, that's when my patience wears a bit thin. Can't be arsed listening to such rubbish people like that come out with.
Nowt wrong with having nice stuff, just don't fool yerself that you are somehow special and elevated from the common herd just because you own expensive hi-fi gear.
Ketamine can alter your perception of music somewhat. LSD even more so. I wouldn't recommend such things though, much less condone their use....
Not sure I entirely agree with that, but mainly because you infer that anything other than ABX is worthless. Blind AB testing surely enables you to hear a difference when the differences are subtle. Short term listening tests are also a bit flawed IMO. Not that I'm particularly interested in that side of things. It isn't part of my work and I'm very glad of that. I want to enjoy music, not analyse my kit!
Elfin, seriously 😉
OK Elfin you almost had me with your argument but that last post just makes me think you've got a chip on your shoulder.
Is it that you resent people with money who spend it on expensive HiFi?
I have a pretty decent one, but I can assure you I don't feel remotely elevated from the common herd but I do feel elevated when I get the chance to sit and enjoy some music.
Is it OK for me to do that or am I still guilty of being so very bourgeois?
Come on Elfin seriously. You've got the talent of a really capable debater but every now and then you blow it with this thinly veiled marxist nonsense.
RichPenny what is it you do at Naim?
Is it that you resent people with money who spend it on expensive HiFi?
Not at all. [Edited following geetee's apology]
RichPenny; allright mate! 🙂
Don't leave that vayn unattended round my way... 😮
yeah... what geetee said.. take a valium elf
Not at all, and if you think so then you badly misunderstand and underestimate me.
OK well I apologise then.
take a valium elf
If only! Mm... Valiuum.
Do you know how hard it is to get hold of that stuff? It's easier to get hold of Crack, Smack and just about anything else!
it'll only make it worse in the long run...
I know that more money on amps and bigger speakers give you more headroom for high volume listening and that a good source is pretty much essential.
My mate has a load of Bryston stuff and some very large PMC speakers in a huge room and he can do a full orchestra in overdrive at home, pretty much, serious money obviously. It's impressive stuff and sounds great for regular late night quiet stuff too, speaker cables were 20 quid. Tried a few others and perhaps because we are both cynics we heard no difference at all so he stuck with the Van Damme.
Production Testing, which involves much of the science that elfin thinks we lack. To be serious for a second, I find it very wearing that every time there's a thread like this I and my colleagues are accused of perpetuating some kind of massive fraud on an unsuspecting public. I've worked in pro audio as well, and all the designers I've encountered are on a mission to extract the absolute best from their work. The attention to detail here is on OCD levels, so I'd love all those sceptics to come on a factory tour.