Looking for a bit of guidance or insight as I am at a loss.
Eldest is applying for university and her dream Uni (Strathclyde) for which she has applied for two degree's have entry requirements of AAAA each. Currently she has 5*A's and in her final year of academy is studying a further 2*advance highers and 2*highers and is on track for B's (advance) and A's (highers). On her personal statement side she is a senior prefect, won school awards for her studies, works part time, has done summer work experience at Technip, does volunteer work and has also done a charity trip to Borneo all self-funded through fundraisers.
Both degree's have rejected her stating she has not shown enough desire to be part of the faculty. It was a noticeably short rejection statement and extremely cutting (unprofessional in my eyes). I am struggling to understand how she's not been offered a course for which she has over achieved to get in, not even a conditional offer. Any words of wisdom from those who have had a similar experience.
How strange. Is the course over subscribed in that they can pick and choose ? I assume she's applied elsewhere too. Most Uni's will happily accept someone who meets the criteria, I can only think it's an oversubscribed course and they can pick who they want.
She can query it (you can't as she's an adult).
What course(s) were they?
Edit: I ask becasue courses get oversubscribed and they'll take students who both meet the grade and show a really keen interest. It's often a bit of a crapshoot.
Both degree's have rejected her stating she has not shown enough desire to be part of the faculty. It was a noticeably short rejection statement and extremely cutting (unprofessional in my eyes). I am struggling to understand how she's not been offered a course for which she has over achieved to get in, not even a conditional offer. Any words of wisdom from those who have had a similar experience.
I had the exact same results from my highers/advanced highers (my academic peak as it turns out 🙄) but still had to jump through a few hoops (application statement, interview with the head of the faculty) to get in to my preferred course.
The uni's concerns were well founded in my case as despite having the results from high school I wasn't at all engaged with the degree and struggled all the way through just through not finding it all interesting. I came out with a degree but not sure I was much of an advert for the uni or the faculty in terms or results or engagement etc.
Not suggesting your daughter is not interested in her degree but sadly I am a prime example of why having the results might not be enough. Can she take a gap year to get some real world experience? I think this would contribute hugely to her university experience anyway, wish I had done so!
That sounds harsh, but with kids recently been through the uni process south of the border, does seem that good courses at "better" universities are asking for ridiculous grades.
Obviously very individual depending on courses and plans, and hard to keep in context as a teenager under so much pressure, but not getting course X at Y university is not the end of the world.
Eldests partner finished a degree apprenticeship last year. First class degree, no debt, earning enough to buy a house at 23.
Daughters friend didn't get the grades for her place at Durham - ended up at Lancaster through clearing, coincidentally where my daughter is. She's enjoying the course, loving uni life, and admits that from what she's heard from friends there, Durham wouldn't have suited her.
All very individual, but as one door closes, another opens somewhere.
Did she also have to do interviews at the faculty?
This is applying through UCAS?
Strange to get feedback at all to be honest. Was this after an actual interview or just through the UCAS portal? If an interview....how did it go?
Two thoughts....did you or the school help with the personal statement? Since they went to answering the three specific questions model last year for the PS rather that 4000 characters of blithering on it is more important that you make a case why this course specifically is right for you and actually answer the questions. A "what a jolly good person I am" statement is no longer what is needed. If the course is over subscribed with people that make the predicted grade cut so the personal statement becomes the tie breaker...well then you have a problem.
2nd - the cynical thought....assuming she is applying from Scotland....most Scottish unis have a quota of 'home' students on a course and they only become financially viable to run when you add other students from other parts of the UK ($) and overseas ($$$). The grim reality is that no tuition fees has a knock on effect in terms of access to Scottish unis for Scottish kids. I work in school with kids applying to Scottish unis with who are entitled to zero fees and overseas applicants - the overseas kids walk on to courses with significantly worse predicted grades and the Scottish kids in the same class with better grades miss out.
Sorry - neither of these help you particularly at this point.
It's not something to do with the number of Scottish students be capped as they dont pay the same fees and UK and overseas students get the places as they bring money?
Both degree's have rejected her stating she has not shown enough desire to be part of the faculty. It was a noticeably short rejection statement and extremely cutting (unprofessional in my eyes). I am struggling to understand how she's not been offered a course for which she has over achieved to get in, not even a conditional offer. Any words of wisdom from those who have had a similar experience.
I’m less surprised than fossy - I’ve heard of these issues with very popular courses. In my middle class utopian world parents complain that “they” are discriminated against for going to a good school, not living in a poor postcode area, having gone to uni themselves and their kids having never been in care etc. Some will also say it’s a consequence of funding and Scottish places are limited to make capacity for paying English, and foreign students. All of that may be true, but it’s a bit of a narrow mindset that doesn’t achieve much - universities aren’t turning away qualified people to leave empty seats so you need to be in the top pool of applicants using the criteria the university use not the one schools think they should use. There is a bit of a mentality that says if you get straight A’s then provided you aren’t doing Medicine/Law/Vet/Dentistry then you should be able to pick your course and institution. Some of that might come from the way things were in “our generation” and some might be from schools putting the wrong emphasis on grades. The extra curricular stuff has actually never been more important and I don’t think schools do a great job of helping candidates communicate those strengths and how it relates to the courses they have applied for.
is the course very popular? did she get interviewed? Reading between the lines about “desire to get into the faculty” - it sounds like either all that “personal statement” stuff is not well communicated or she failed to get across her enthusiasm in person. It may be she wasn’t invited for interview but the have open days or opportunities to talk to the faculty informally and if your name doesn’t get logged there it’s a red flag that you were filling up the spaces on the application. That is speculation. That may be particularly true if you apply for 5 quite different courses, when your personal statement will be really hard to describe why you want to study civil engineering, microbiology, Roman history, criminology and international law, without seeming insincere about some of them.
you may find the reply rude but it’s potentially helpful if she really wants to go there. A “we are sorry we are oversubscribed and decided not to make you an offer” reply tells you nothing.
you may find the reply rude but it’s potentially helpful if she really wants to go there. A “we are sorry we are oversubscribed and decided not to make you an offer” reply tells you nothing.
Work me says : This, really. I'm afraid the harsh truth is that its supply and demand, and if their are 20 applicants who meet the XYZ requirements but 10 places, the University is well within their rights to pick and choose who they want.
My background to this is - not Univerisity, but I do work for a company who has a very very sought after apprenticeship scheme, and get involved with the selection etc.
The entry requirements, on paper, may be met by many, many people. The fact is that we are able to pick and choose the ones who clearly show a real desire and a 'want' to get in. Being clever and having the right exam results purely gets you past the first cull.
As an example, the official contact the applicants get, is via our HR/recruitment system. It is, however, very easy through Linkedin, Facebook, a bit of a root around our corporate website and the information packs provided, to work out who the actual people involved in the apprenticeship team are. A surprisingly low amount of applicants make this link, and contact us. Those who do, are the ones who's names are getting noted...
All very individual, but as one door closes, another opens somewhere.
Out of work me says: This, honestly. I'm sure she feels crap about it, as do you, but honestly, it will all work out.
Like the poster above, I went to University when I possibly shouldnt, I 'managed' and thats it. And now I am involved with them, I will bang the drum for apprenticeships all day long to whomever asks.
For reference, our apprentices are (so long as they dont f*ck up) are getting to age 22ish, fully qualifed with £40k+ p/a job offer, with zero debt, having trained all over the UK all paid for and expensed, an internationally recognised qualification and the chance to be doubling that salary not that far off in the future.
I know what I wish I'd done.
Sorry that is tough, and of course rejection letters should be professional and fair. It sounds like a way-oversubscribed course. Did she get an interview? Perhaps all the places had been taken by people who had actively badgered the department well before ucas, who knows, and you'll never really find out. With grades being high there are some courses that are just really hard to get your foot in the door - the vet, medicine, law, journalism, well known drama/dance type courses, etc.
Do note with the rejection, just like job interviews, it is easier from a HR perspective to say nothing except she didn't get in. Don't expect any feedback from anyone these days.
As others have said, there are a million opportunities out there. I would say if this department don't want to give her a shot, then it may be best all round (as others have given their experiences, it may be she wouldn't have fit in or liked the place anyway). Understand if she doesn't want to disclose which course / field she's looking at.
I work at an English Uni, so I'm suspecting it very different at a Scottish one as described above. Hence why I was surprised. I don't know the Scottish Education system.
That may be particularly true if you apply for 5 quite different courses, when your personal statement will be really hard to describe why you want to study civil engineering, microbiology, Roman history, criminology and international law, without seeming insincere about some of them.
Slightly aside but you wouldnt believe how many applications we receive with
"I am really excited by this opportunity with insert rival company name here and would love the opportunity to come meet you"
Straight in the round file, I'm afraid, theres no other way it can be dealt with.
(I am not at all suggesting this is whats happened merely giving some insight into the other side of the process. There is simply not enough resource for the process to be all friendly and cuddly, which is why the response you got seems a bit cold).
I work at an English Uni, so I'm suspecting it very different at a Scottish one as described above. Hence why I was surprised.
Wife is a prof of Eng Lit @ a Russell Grp Uni, what the OP described is her experience every year. The course are so oversubscribed they can leterally pick who they want, and even then its not always obvious from a PS what the student will be like.
Would it be possible to speak to someone for more informative feedback? In my brief stint in "the ed biz" I'd have been reluctant to commit much to paper, and less so to offer advice in person.
Also - just to add after a reread....
Your title said 'straight As' - but in the text you said 'on course for Bs" on the advanced highers. Latest predicted grades are the important part - what was put on her UCAS as an official predicted by her tutors for the advanced highers? What was the usual offer for the course she was wanting in points or highers/advanced higher grades?
Is this the result of the gradual 'softening' of grades* since covid which has probably not done the universities any favours?
They can specify all A* requirements but if 20% more students are being awarded A* grades then there are going to be casualities.
(* What used to be a C is now probably a B and a B has potentially become an A or even an A*)
I was rejected by my uni, Sheffield, but wrote a letter to the course tutor and got in. A letter's also school but contact the tutor.
It does very much depend on the course but in some areas I'm not sure hugely popular degree subjects are the way to go. My friend's daughter is doing Psychology (number two most popular course in the UK) at a RG uni and I have no doubt she will get a first.....but so will many many other bright kids. The pool of highly qualified Psychology graduates from top universities is a big one and growing as Unis respond to demand. How that will translate to the job market can only mean more competition, harder interview processes and less success for those without maybe a pushy personality, means to take lower paid placements or a lucky break. In addition, her feedback is that the teaching is not as rigorous as she expected....perhaps because the course is so easy to fill?
Thanks all for your responses.
For further context the Strathclyde degree’s are Psychology with Business Studies or Psychology with Marketing. She has an A in higher Psychology and won the school award for this subject, and she has an A in higher Business Studies again won the school award for her year. Her other A’s are also in strong academic subjects. The Advanced Highers she is on course to get B’s for are Modern Studies and English. Reference the comment about her getting B’s, an advanced higher is equivalent to 1st year Uni studies so over and above University entry requirements which is for Highers (she got A’s in higher Modern Studies and English).
Application was through UCAS with no Uni interviews, but she attended the open day and met various members of the Psychology faculty to express her interest in person. Additionally her personal statement went through various revisions with her school to capture all her achievements and meet the 4,000-word limit. Her school has commented how strong her letter is with all her extracurricular activities. Daughter has also attended Psychology conferences in her own time, again was all documented in her cover letter.
On checking Strathclyde portal today, the course is closed to Scottish candidates but open to English and International still. She may have become a victim of funding statistics as Strathclyde is prioritising funding over pupil academics (just a guess).
She has an unconditional for a Psychology degree at her home Uni of Aberdeen which is still a strong faculty so not all doom and gloom.
This was the message Strathclyde added to the rejection notification.
“Unfortunately your application demonstrates little or no motivation to study in this area. Demonstrates little to no motivation to study within the Business faculty”.
This is what has upset her the most given the work she has put in to be belittled in such a way.
For some courses you will not get in as a Scottish student unless you come from a deprived area. University of Edinburgh for example
"Only priority applicants from more deprived areas were accepted to courses including law, business and philosophy."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475
As it happens my daughter in law did law at Edinburgh qualifying around 8 years ago. Went to a private school but at time of application her parents had seperated and her mother was single and low paid so I have no idea if she got deprivation Brownie points or not.
@bearGrease - normal academy not private. Ironically the academy falls under the deprived area rules so if anything it should have opened more doors for her and qualifications.
edit - low attainment state school, that's it. Thanks @irc for the article!
Both degree's have rejected her stating she has not shown enough desire to be part of the faculty.
If this is sincere then a letter back to them blowing smoke up their arse can't hurt. How Strathclyde was - as you say - her dream Uni and how devastated she is not to have been accepted, etc etc. Throw in some features of the Uni that she was particularly excited about so it's clearly not merely a couple of paragraphs of boilerplate.
They want someone more enthusiastic for the place, so rolling over and going "oh well" instead of putting up a bit of a fight rather proves them correct. 😁
“Unfortunately your application demonstrates little or no motivation to study in this area. Demonstrates little to no motivation to study within the Business faculty”.
Wow. I'm old and ugly enough to have been knocked back quite a few times, but that would have hurt me, never mind a teenager. Sorry for her experience.
@cougar - working on a letter right this weekend and daughter is talking to head of academy today to get their weight behind her etc. Got the Bombers on standby
As someone mentioned above, Psychology is very popular. We can over recruit by hundreds, and still turn people down. Graduate outcomes aren't great for Psychology you know -i.e. students getting a graduate level job afterwards. It's a useful degree to have, but there aren't the jobs. That said there aren't jobs for newly qualified teachers, nurses and physios where there is a clear career path.
cheers @fossy, we maybe didn't understand how oversubscribed Psychology is and that's further compounded by the Scottish funding conundrum universities find themselves in. Take Dundee University almost going bankrupt last year.
This was the message Strathclyde added to the rejection notification.
“Unfortunately your application demonstrates little or no motivation to study in this area. Demonstrates little to no motivation to study within the Business faculty”.
This is what has upset her the most given the work she has put in to be belittled in such a way.
an advanced higher is equivalent to 1styear Uni studies
thanks @convert Will drop you an message now, was paraphrasing on the advance Highers stuff but you understand the context better than me
That seems like an incredibly harsh response. My daughter did not get an interview at Oxford - just a straight no without explanation - and that damaged her self esteem as she was very driven academically, did all the "right" things to show she was interested and contributed to the community etc.
Your daughter is undoubtedly hurt by the refusal but she should not take it too personally as there are probably many others who have received the same response. I am not sure whether writing letters etc. is a good move - maybe do it but define a point where she will move on.
Having had one child finish uni and the other one in her second year I do think the degree apprenticeship route described by snotrag would have been the better option for both of them.
They want someone more enthusiastic for the place, so rolling over and going "oh well" instead of putting up a bit of a fight rather proves them correct.
Definitely worth this - my daughter was rejected over an admin error at her first choice but followed up by writing back to the admissions tutor and the Head of Faculty outlining why she was so determined to study there and doors reopened. Doesn't mean you'll get in but if you don't do anything then clearly you don't want it badly enough, and for definite you won't.
Wow. I'm old and ugly enough to have been knocked back quite a few times, but that would have hurt me, never mind a teenager. Sorry for her experience.
Maybe you work in different circles to me, but as a job or interview rejection I'd say that's pretty vanilla. As soon as you start 'personalising' reasons a whole load of other problems start. Short, factual, you can argue it was incorrect on that basis but i personally wouldn't be grabbing any pitchforks about tone.
She has an unconditional for a Psychology degree at her home Uni of Aberdeen which is still a strong faculty so not all doom and gloom.
This was the message Strathclyde added to the rejection notification.
“Unfortunately your application demonstrates little or no motivation to study in this area. Demonstrates little to no motivation to study within the Business faculty”.
This is what has upset her the most given the work she has put in to be belittled in such a way.
So I'm not trying to defend Strathcylde at all - that's a pretty brutal way to feed that back. Its also a little bizzare given her marks in the subject area. However I supsect who ever selected that option has no idea that it ends up on the letter in exactly that way! I think it would be worth someone impartial looking at the application/personal statement and seeing if it really does express a motivation to study "within the Business faculty". E.g. does it talk about psychology but not mention business/marketing? does it explain directly or indirectly why she's doing neither Psychology nor Business in 6th year?
The most important question though might be - given the response does she still really want to go to Strathclyde to that department.
here is her PA statement;
Why do you want to study this course or subject?
In S5 I took higher Psychology as a crash higher and instantly fell in love with the course. In my life experiences I’ve found it intriguing how the brain works and have always wanted to learn more about the science behind why people behave the way they do. I attended a psychology lecture at Strathclyde Uni where I took particular interest in modules that analyze the brain such as the impact of dementia and neuropsychology as a whole. I also took part in the Scottish Schools Psychology Conference held at Aberdeen Uni where I attended workshops tailored to my interests within Psychology such as how the brain works. Since Covid-19, I feel that Psychology is more appreciated due to people struggling to deal with being at home all the time as well as working from home, some of which still do which can have an impact on their work-life balance and therefore mental wellbeing. Due to my previous experience of studying this subject and additional learning at external events, I’m hopeful that university will fulfil my curiosity for psychology.
How have your qualifications and studies helped you to prepare for this course or subject?
I was awarded the Higher Psychology award at my school’s Achievement Awards Ceremony for the 2024-2025 school year. I was also awarded the N5 Application of Mathematics and Modern Studies awards in 2023-2024. Studying social-science based subjects such as Modern Studies gave me analysis and research skills due to the mix of science and human based material taught which will support my future studies. In my final year of academy, I was selected as one of four Senior Prefects, a role that involved representing the school, leading other Prefects and contributing ideas to further improve the school for both pupils and staff. This experience helped me develop strong communication skills, which further sparked my interest in studying Psychology and diving deeper into how people interact. Balancing 5 Higher subjects and a N5 during S5 helped me to manage heavy workloads alongside completing commitments outside school, this means I have the correct mechanisms to deal with this challenge.
What else have you done to prepare outside of education, and why are these experiences useful?
In 2024, I participated in a World Challenge Expedition, which was an unforgettable experience. This allowed me to grow as a person as I was regularly pushed outside my comfort zone. I served as a group leader, navigated language barriers, and contributed to community projects such as building a safer path in the jungle for school kids to use or painting a local church. This was a very rewarding trip as I improved my teamwork, leadership, problem-solving skills and resilience as we rotated roles within the group. I have enjoyed Dog Agility since I was 5 years old and qualified for Crufts 2020 to represent Scottish Kennel Club Juniors. This led me to compete in the final round of YKC Agility Dog of the Year within the iconic, televised main arena.
Through applications and interviews, I was accepted into the Career Ready Programme 2024-2026. This includes being mentored by a working individual where they help you build on essential skills needed for future endeavours. The programme involves attending masterclasses held by external businesses and a 4 week internship at your mentor’s workplace. I interned at TechnipFMC where I participated in meetings, worked with other interns, presented projects, went on supplier visits, familiarised myself with company software, and networked with colleagues. Since May 2023, I’ve worked at a local hairdresser’s where I’ve developed skills in customer service, time management, and task prioritisation. My job involves lots of client interaction, inventory management, and administrative tasks. This has helped me to become even more confident in speaking to new people and expanding my network as communicating to clients is a major part of my role. In 2024, I shadowed a senior nurse practitioner at a local GP surgery through a self-found placement, gaining valuable insight into healthcare and how clinical psychology could look like as a profession as this links science with clinical practice.
Shitty response for a kid to get, but try not to take it personally, it's probabaly boiler plate from a stressed out admin who's got 3 people's work load...
Writing to the dept head is worth a go, but they've a quota for Scottish students , have a back up plan.
Sorry, but I'm not seeing in that statement anything about why she wants to do Psychology with Business/Marketing, or why she wants to join the faculty.
As in other fields - they're not saying she is unsuitable or unqualified, but it's a competition and being 11/200 is 'a great result' but still a no compared to the 10 places on offer (point noted about limited places for Scottish UGs)
Was going to reply reply privately but as you've posted here.....
Overall - pretty good. Reads well. In general I'd normally advise a slightly different split of characters with more used on this first 2, especially the first and less on the last. 40%/35%/25% maybe. But she comes over well. The more academic the course, the less they care about anything other than your specific academic desire and preparedness.
But......if the Strathclyde courses are run by the business faculty I can see why they might have an issue. I'd have expected to see a good amount on her desire to study business, where this might take her in the future and how her phycology knowledge would benefit her in a future business career.
Painfully - the feedback was accurate in relation to wanting to study in a business faculty/school.
Were her other 3 choices pure phycology courses? That can make putting together a personal statement, especially since the change in format, very challenging. If the course was under subscribed then completely missing talking about half the course wouldn't be an issue, but in this circumstance it was probably a significant factor.
If she REALLY wants to go there, would she be prepared to go around again and do a year working and doing gap year type stuff?
As mentioned above, non Scottish students = ££££££ both for the university and the landlords of all the mass student accommodation that has appeared since I went to Strathclyde in the 90s
It's no longer about education, it's all about profit
Graduate outcomes aren't great for Psychology you know
I know three of our friend kids and my niece (who got a 1st from Warwick) who did Psychology degrees. None have got jobs relating to it.
My niece went on to teach it for a couple of years but hated teaching (first job from Uni). She now works as a commissioning officer in child services (12+ years) and doesn't feel her degree offers any practical skills to take to another career.
@convert - Psychology is what floats her boat so all applications were for a Psychology course with some form of corporate world bolt on. Appreciate the feedback on the business side and I do see that lacks a bit, Psychology falls under the Humanities and Social Sciences Faculty in Strathclyde and not under the Business School Faculty. But we must have missed the mark for her statement. From the blunt response it makes me question was it the Psychology or Business faculty who reviewed this degree application, perhaps Business did if Psychology is oversubscribed. The two rejections she has received are wildly different in how they have been handled.
Thankfully she has that unconditional for the course she wants but not at the uni she fancied. We have two more uni's to hear back from and then she can decide what to do. With all her A's even clearing could even be an option or gap year but it's up to her.
I still find it's wild that someone can overachieve academically but still be knocked back
Psychology is what floats her boat
Is there a reason she didn't just apply for the straight Phycology course at Strath then if that's her thing?
Often people go for the "non pure" course in subjects where the grades and competition is tough. But if you do, it's important that do give the second/accompanying subject due credit in the PS.
that was her family's guidance to help cover more bases for future office style work etc. In hindsight a few sentences covering off more of the business/marketing world would have been beneficial. Her school never pointed out this weighting and focussed more on the personal element selling what's she's done and who she is, not just being a kid playing Minecraft all night long for example.
I think what she's missing is any mention of business in her statement. When you're applying for a joint course the application is submitted to both departments and both departments have to say yes for you to be offered a place. She may well have been accepted by the Psychology dept but been rejected by the business dept.
There is nothing at all in that statement to convey why she wants to study the course at that University, just that she wants to study it. Which (I assume) she could do anywhere.
to study the courseat that University
That's not how UCAS works - the same application goes to all 5 institutions you want to go to. You can't bespoke the application to each uni. That's why it's important that the 5 courses you are applying to are sufficiently similar that your single generic application reads well to all admissions tutors.
