I seem to remember the Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko being poisoned a few years back..or are you still waiting For the evidence e to be 100% on that one as well...
And when it comes to chest beating, Putin is rather fond of taking his top off at every opportunity, For some reason Boris hasn't tried that look yet.
Given a neighbour with expansionist tendencies
And NATO doesn't have expansionist tendencies? So Russia is supposed to just accept NATO expanding eastwards on to it's borders? The obvious solution is for Ukraine to be neutral like Finland. Both Russia and NATO need to step back from the pissing match and Ukraine should recognise that there is a significant portion of their population who see themselves as Russian and don't want to be 'Western'.
NATO was formed to counter the threat to western european countries from the Soviet Union following USSR expansion into the iron curtain. What is it for now? Does anyone seriously believe Russia (or anyone else for that matter) poses a material threat to western European borders? Seems to me NATO is largely redundant but rather than admit that, it seeks to justify it's existence by stoking tensions and looking for a fight. All no doubt to fill the pockets of arms manufacturers and dealers.
So Russia is supposed to just accept NATO expanding eastwards on to it’s borders?
Well, yes. NATO isn't just going to march over the border into Mother Russia one day. Russia on the other hand . . .
NATO is not going to invade Russia. Putin knows this. He wants to stop NATO expanding because it makes his own aspirations more difficult to achieve, both territorially and politically.
reckless ambition to join NATO
Ukraine can't form alliances? Is this kind of logic going to be applied to Russia and China?
And NATO doesn’t have expansionist tendencies?
NATO hasn't invaded Russia. It's not going to. Russia has invaded Ukraine many times in the last 8 years. The conflict is ongoing, and happening on Ukraine soil.
So Putin is the reasonable, non aggressive victim of the West and NATO?
Well:
He's manipulated his countries institutions so be can be President dictator for life.
He's brazenly ordered assassinations to be carried out on other nations soil.
He's carried out a partial invasion of Ukraine already.
... and it's apparently totally reasonable of him to use strong arm tactics on the same country to get whatever he pleases this time round.
I'm astonished that anyone opposed to diplomacy by war is seeing Putin as the poor oppressed victim here, constantly defending his country from border incursions from the West/ NATO.
In other threads dazh generally makes good, cohesive arguments even if I don't always agree with them.
On this occasion though, it just doesn't hold up to even cursory examination and it's got nothing to do with biased media/ propaganda or the "warmongers" on here.
So Russia is supposed to just accept NATO expanding eastwards on to it’s borders?
If it's not NATO, Putin will just complain about EU expansionism. To him they're the same useful excuse. Either way he wants to rebuild the Ex Soviet sates, and to influence their external relationships and and internal politics.
Well:
NATO - Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq...
So Russia is supposed to just accept NATO expanding eastwards on to it’s borders?
The only way NATO can expand is if countries ask to join and then meet the requirements for membership. NATO cannot compel any country to join. NATO's expansion to the borders of Russia reflects that Russia's neighbors are afraid of it and do not trust it. If Russia does not want NATO at its borders, all it has to do is accept the former Warsaw Pact members and former Soviet republics are now independent sovereign countries and not threaten them. Nobody is going to try to invade Russia, that would be suicidal. This isn't about Russia being afraid of invasion, it's about Russia losing influence over countries that it used to dominate through military occupation and being unwilling to accept that. So, yes, Russia is supposed to just accept it. They're sovereign countries that can join whatever defensive alliance they choose.
seeing Putin as the poor oppressed victim here
Don't be daft, no one is saying that, least of all myself. Putin is a gangster who wants to enshrine his local powerbase in perpetuity. You think he's going to put that at risk by risking war with the west? Putin is many things but he's not an idiot, and he's not a lunatic. Unlike NATO he doesn't need to justify his existence or manufacture the consent for his activities. Whether we like it or not most of the Russian public support him (including many 'russians' in ex-soviet states). Can NATO say the same?
NATO – Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq…
Russia - Georgia, Abkhazia Transnistria, Tajikistani, Chechnya (twice), Dagestan, Ukraine, Syria, CAR civil war.
I'm pretty sure I've missed some
it’s got nothing to do with biased media/ propaganda or the “warmongers” on here.
I know you put it in scare quotes, but I really don't think there are any warmongers on here. There are a bunch of people who are extremely concerned about the possibility of war and would like Russia to not invade Ukraine. Nobody is arguing for attacking Russia, just for Russia to not continue attacking Ukraine. That's the opposite of warmongering.
Ultimately, you have to ask, what Ukraine will get out of whatever stance it takes?
If Ukraine joins NATO, they've got a nervous neighbour on their doorstep, that might just fancy testing out NATOs resolve. An interesting prospect btw, cause if Russia did go for a full invasion under those circumstances and NATO doesn't react, what does that mean for NATO, does it's entire premise collapse?
Obviously, before that question is answered they need to answer the question - is NATO membership even a reality for them? While their borders are unstable it's unlikely to happen as NATO has zero interest in being automatically dragged into a war with Russia. So, in that sense, the answer from Russia's perspective is easy, just maintain an indefinite state of war in Eastern Ukraine.
Or do they just say, right, we've no intention of joining NATO, but economically we are gearing ourselves up more towards the EU with the intention of becoming an EU state, or at least becoming more integrated with EU standards(I'd imagine EU membership is a long long way off). But all the while maintaining strong connections with Russia? (Not really sure it's to their benefit to completely isolate from Russia behind a new iron curtain of sorts, but I'm not up on the economic, ethnic or social structures within Ukraine, so who knows.) But in that they can probably settle the issue in the East, although, I'd guess Crimea is gone for good.
With that second premise, what actual pretext does Putin have for war? Surely none really as the historical basis of his argument (NATO expansion) disappears?
I think people also need to remember Putin isn't playing a short game here, they still occupy parts of Georgia 14/15 years later. I honestly can't see a larger war happening anytime soon. I think all Putin is doing is, successfully, showing Ukraine that they are on their own when it comes to NATO help.
I think Ukraine need to look inward for their answer tbh, cause external help will be limited, and them being a sort of bridging nation between east and west is probably a better idea than picking one side or the other to fling their oars in with.
You think he’s going to put that at risk by risking war with the west?
I don't think Putin wants war, but he does want to roll into the rest of Ukraine. If that's not going to happen, then he wants all sorts of demands that he knows the rest of word isn't going to give him. For him, it's a no-loose situation.
Whether we like it or not most of the Russian public support him (including many ‘russians’ in ex-soviet states).
Are they supporting this war though? I've seen nothing to say that ordinary Russians are up for this, I have seen and heard reports saying otherwise
Putin is many things but he’s not an idiot, and he’s not a lunatic. Unlike NATO he doesn’t need to justify his existence or manufacture the consent for his activities.
Really?!
With that second premise, what actual pretext does Putin have for war? Surely none really as the historical basis of his argument (NATO expansion) disappears?
NATO expansion is just a pretext. What Putin is really afraid of is having successful democracies at Russia's borders. There was no prospect of Ukraine joining NATO when Russia invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine, the trigger for that was the overthrow of a Russian-leaning regime with one that sought closer ties to Europe. Putin knows that NATO won't invade Russia, he's afraid that democracy might.
Yeah, I get that. But he still needs some sort of pretext though.
30 seconds of googling. And you think NATO aren't expansionist?
https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy
What Putin is really afraid of is having successful democracies at Russia’s borders.
See above. Or perhaps he fears a US client state on his western border?
Or perhaps he fears a US client state on his western border?
He fears Russia declining influence. Some of the countries that border Russia are looking towards democracy and closer ties to the biggest economic block in the world, and there's little to nothing he can offer instead. They look at Hungary and Romania and Poland and they like what hey see on the other hand; Russia is a declining mafia state.
It's not a difficult choice.
I think the point is that Russia being expansionist means removing political leaders, court judges, police and other civic administrations from a territory and removing their sovereignty, whereas NATO expanding means a military pact whilst maintaining the territories self governing ability, sovereignty and political independence. There's a bit of a difference...
whereas NATO expanding means a military pact whilst maintaining the territories self governing ability, sovereignty and political independence.
Yes of course, NATO are benevolent imperialists whilst the russians are evil. 🙄
Honestly do seriously believe this naive rose tinted view of the world? They're all as bad as each other. The only difference is how they're presented to you via the propoganda you're exposed to. You can bet the direct opposite is the case in Russia. I mean, NATO countries have such an excellent track record at bringing peace, stability and democracy to countries all over the world how could anyone question their motives? 🤷🏻♂️
It’s not a difficult choice.
Yeah, so easy that two large states in the east of Ukraine fought a civil war and declared independence over the issue!
Haven't read the entire thread, but this pseudo escalation over the last few weeks is to do with the information or mis-information war. As we all know, the Russians have been very adept at this sort of thing for a while, however the West/Nato/EU have learnt this lesson and have turned the tables on the Russians.
The screeching from the Kremlin is proof of this.
I also don’t think it’s as simple as saying NATO/ Western countries are always right and Putin is always wrong. But on this occasion it feels like Putin is aggressively pushing the agenda, and my feeling is that should be resisted. Some pages back I think somebody posted an article saying that what he really fears is that Russia itself is pulled further West as all these border states move that way. I can see some logic in that, but really that’s a problem that comes from being an authoritarian dictatorship, and I don’t have much sympathy for it frankly.
Yes of course, NATO are benevolent imperialists whilst the russians are evil. Honestly do seriously believe this naive rose tinted view of the world?
No. Which is why no one has said that, apart from you in your strawman. What they are saying is that Putin has taken, and we suspect will continue to seek to take, territory in Eastern Europe by force, and because of that Eastern European countries feel compelled to ask for assistance from other countries, and some understandably see NATO as one possible way to ensure that assistance.
Honestly do seriously believe this naive rose tinted view of the world?
As you have said, we should stay out of this, I'm sure if we did, the Russians would invade. It's not like they have designs on the other former soviet states, so all is fine...wait a minute, Did I not see the UK Russian embassy quote that the Baltic states were "orphans of Russia?" Why would they say that?
I wonder why they joined Nato?
Your diatribe Daz has the "peace in our times" vibe about it.
As you have said, we should stay out of this, I’m sure if we did, the Russians would invade.
Have a read of the link I posted above. If 'we' - as in the west - had stayed out of it there wouldn't be any need for an invasion. What is happening now is a result of western interference in Ukraine back in 2014.
Naive.
Naive.
Care to show your working? So it's naive to point out something that happened which caused something else to happen which might inform what should happen in future? Or are you content in taking a tribal, and dare I say it, 'patriotic' view because that's what the media tells you to do?
What is happening now is a result of western interference in Ukraine back in 2014.
Ukrainians booted out a corrupt leader who favoured close ties with Russia in favour of a less corrupt leader who favoured closer ties with Europe. The only western interference was the offer of economic ties. The rest of it was down to Ukrainians being sick of corrupt leaders and Russian domination. That's why they're prepared to fight and die.
The only western interference was the offer of economic ties.
And I'm the one who's naive?
And I’m the one who’s naive?
Very much so.
NATO – Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq…
Russia – Georgia, Abkhazia Transnistria, Tajikistani, Chechnya (twice), Dagestan, Ukraine, Syria, CAR civil war.
I’m pretty sure I’ve missed some
Excellent point, but you've as kelvin would quickly point out you've answered with a strawman. The charge was leveled, feel free to answer the actual point being made
apart from you in your strawman
Oh here we go. Usual 'strawman' attack. Anyone has a different opinion, and Kelvin hits back with this nonsense. Never feels it is justified as above. Usual counter rather than actually provide and evidence
Change the record mate 🙄
But on this occasion it feels like Putin is aggressively pushing the agenda
How about, Aggressively pushing Back.
hits back with this nonsense
You set up the following question... "NATO are benevolent imperialists whilst the russians are evil. Honestly do seriously believe this naive rose tinted view of the world?"
No one made such claims. You only set up the question because the answer is "no"... no one thinks that. What people have said is that Putin has, and will continue to, push the RF West if we don't support the Eastern European countries that were formally part of the USSR when they ask us to.
But he’s not pushing back, he’s pushing forwards. If there was any kind of risk of Russia being invaded, which there isn’t, then he would be pushing back.
Very much so.
Even though US politicians, officials and diplomats are on record discussing who to install as the replacement for Yanukovych? John McCain even went to Kiev to hold meetings with opposition parties and took part in demonstrations. We'll never know the full extent of US interference but it's pretty obvious it goes way beyond 'economies ties'.
No one made such claims.
Airvent said...
I think the point is that Russia being expansionist means removing political leaders, court judges, police and other civic administrations from a territory and removing their sovereignty, whereas NATO expanding means a military pact whilst maintaining the territories self governing ability, sovereignty and political independence.
In other words, Russia = bad, NATO = good.
Which NATO country has invaded Russia?
NATO itself, and many member countries, have made many moves that can be characterised as “bad” or “not benevolent”. But none of them have invaded Russia. And without the help of their neighbours and allies, Eastern European countries are at continued risk of invasion while Putin is in power. Your determination that modern day Russia is only a threat to the states that border it if we “interfere” isn’t one that I agree with. You can infer that is because I’ve been led into that opinion by western warmongers using my patriotism against me if you wish, but I think Putin’s own actions and words are all that is needed to come to that point of view.
Which NATO country has invaded Russia?
Well obviously none, and thus far nobody except yourself just now has suggested such a thing.
But the question begs the answer - Because they couldn't.
.
Some seem to feel that NATO is the exact same as the UN peace keeping force, and it clearly is not.
One could counter with - How many countries have been invaded by countries belonging to and making up the main players in NATO ?.
That questions answer makes it all the more uncomfortable.
Oh there we have it, Thols has supplied the proof.
Oh dear oh dear.
In other news: stand back everyone! Liz Truss is chairing a COBRA meeting this afternoon.
I'm sure that'll quickly have everything sorted then. I wonder what outfit she'll have on and which of her photographers she'll bring? Or if she'll have her My First Atlas with her so someone can point out where Ukraine is on a map.
I suspect me chairing a meeting with my cats about the whole issue would have just as much impact on Vlad and chums in Moscow.
Still busy on the leadership campaign then
COBRA
Aptly named. The place is full of snakes
Well I won’t disagree on that point 😂
Is the PM on holiday again?
Well it is a half term holiday somewhere so it'd be rude not to take the time off
Is the PM on holiday again?
He doesn't do COBRA meetings. Everyone knows that. Probably choosing some new wallpaper or something important.
One assumes that at this point there's something big and explody targeted by a NATO country at Nord Stream 2 where it leaves Russian territory. Right now I get the impression that Germany is so reliant on this for their future energy requirements they'd appease Putin to almost any degree.
Destroy NS2 and that problem is solved.
Destroy NS2 and that problem is solved.
Have we the right to meddle in the affairs of sovereign countries ?
😛
johnson in Scotland spraying lies and bullshit everywhere, trying to be statesman-like when talking about Ukraine but just sounding vacuous; nack for Tuesday's COBRA session.
"Or if she’ll have her My First Atlas with her so someone can point out where Ukraine is on a map"
If her first atlas is anything like my first atlas it will show the whole of Eastern Europe in one big block colour with the letters USSR stamped all over it.
Had the Russian Foreign minister will say, "look what it says on the map Liz.... U.S.S.R. the Unified Satalite States of Russia."
He doesn’t do COBRA meetings. Everyone knows that. Probably choosing some new wallpaper or something important.
I don't think HE chooses the wallpaper.
Aaah yes.... fair point. Busy negotiating who's going to be paying for it then?
Anything to avoid actually doing what is still apparently his ****ing job!
Ordinarily it'd be a good thing to keep him away from anything important, but when you look at who the supply teacher is...
Liz Truss chairing COBRA.
Can you imagine?
Would make a classic Spitting Image sketch though.
Have just seen reports of Russia pointing artillery towards Ukrainian positions and of the US embassy destroying comms equipment.
As much as I would like to think Putin would not be so brash, this is looking like he will actually invade Ukraine again.
I can't help feeling that Johnson is talking up the possibility of war just so he can claim some credit when it doesn't happen. But maybe, I'm thinking that. because I just don't trust the govt, and there is actually a real risk
Have just seen reports of Russia pointing artillery towards Ukrainian positions and of the US embassy destroying comms equipment.
As much as I would like to think Putin would not be so brash, this is looking like he will actually invade Ukraine again.
Yes I saw that too. Mainly coming from the likes of the daily express and mail.
Someone however should let the Ukrainians know, i've just been reading Daily Kiev ua, Interfax,Kyiv post, Ukrainian business online, Ukrainian journal, Ukrainian weekly, Ukrinform, Unian info, and ZIK ua, all English printed Ukrainian news outlets, and none of them have anything on about it.
And of course Dave Random vlogs on you tube, a brit married to a Ukrainian and living there. Seems the word from the average Ukrainian man on the street is of calm and none think an invasion is imminent.
I can’t help feeling that Johnson is talking up the possibility of war just so he can claim some credit when it doesn’t happen
Correct. Like how he's beaten covid 😉
Correct, I have a Ukrainian friend just outside Kharkiv and when I said how worried I was at the news she didn't know what I was talking about. Only this weekend did she and her family realise from TV news what is going on.
And of course anywhere with significant Russian influence is getting a story that is polar opposite.
They are hearing that it is US and NATO on the wind up, waiting ready to strike, and the build up protects Russian borders.
Someone however should let the Ukrainians know, i’ve just been reading Daily Kiev ua, Interfax,Kyiv post, Ukrainian business online, Ukrainian journal, Ukrainian weekly, Ukrinform, Unian info, and ZIK ua, all English printed Ukrainian news outlets, and none of them have anything on about it.
Uh, that Daily Kiev UA is I presume this https://day.kyiv.ua/
Which currently has a front page plastered in stuff about Russian military activity
During the past 24 hours, on February 14, five violations were recorded by the Russian occupation forces.
This opinion piece might be worth a read.
https://day.kyiv.ua/uk/article/podrobyci/viyna-nerviv
During the restoration of independence, Ukraine experienced various events when the fate of the country was decided under the influence of internal or external factors. Today is another historic moment. Due to Russian aggression, the situation around our country has become so aggravated that a major war cannot be ruled out. Contrary to the actions of Moscow, which is concentrating troops along the perimeter of Ukraine's land and sea borders, including in the occupied Ukrainian territories, which conducts permanent military exercises, including in Belarus and the Black Sea, and which has issued ultimatums to Washington and Brussels, The West is playing its game.
Liz was just on R4 talking tough... Apparently.
The usual blah, blah, blah followed by having the obvious pointed out to her, yet again....
You won't do anything because everyone knows, not least Putin, that your mates in the City of London are making an absolute killing (literally!) by rinsing dirty Russian money, and they all make large donations to the Tory party to make sure things stay that way
and they all make large donations to the Tory party to make sure things stay that way
Well that is what the tory party are all about.
This opinion piece might be worth a read.
Yeah certainly interesting. I also read it in its entirety- good old google translate.
They also took note not only of Russia, but what the called "the blackmail of the west", in keeping the position of the United States as a paramount player in the world. But then, we always knew that the Ukraine and its people are only there as a strategic pawn int he US's game against Russia from having any power or influence in Europe.
.
I suppose if battle lines are being drawn, or redrawn, what appears to be coming out of this is the US and the UK are standing apart from Europe as a whole. The US wants it to be the only power and influence in the world and the UK is playing a lapdog role.
Here's another interesting read.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy#
Liz was just on R4 talking tough
Makes a change from talking trough
! PORK MARKETS !
Oh look, Russia is moving troops back to their bases. A lot of people on here are going to be very disappointed.
Poor old Boris, back to the partygate met investigation 😆 No more distractions.
Someone over there bump fire or drop an ak and set it all off please. jk.
Poor old Boris
He'll claim some credit for it!
Oh look, Russia is moving troops back to their bases. A lot of people on here are going to be very disappointed
Oh do stop being so absurd, quite why you feel the need to smear others with that biased tripe I do t know.
A lot of people on here are going to be very disappointed.
The people who said that Western countries need to vocally and materially support the Ukraine and other Eastern European countries to let Putin know he won't get away with a bigger incursion (or at least that the price for Russia would be high)?
Yeah certainly interesting. I also read it in its entirety- good old google translate.
They also took note not only of Russia, but what the called “the blackmail of the west”, in keeping the position of the United States as a paramount player in the world. But then, we always knew that the Ukraine and its people are only there as a strategic pawn int he US’s game against Russia from having any power or influence in Europe.
Same old same old bulshit from both sides. About the only comfort I see in this round of geopolitical ****ery is that at least western European countries have stopped kicking the living shit out of their immediate neighbours. Which in the grand scheme is a recent development.
Oh do stop being so absurd, quite why you feel the need to smear others with that biased tripe I do t know.
Why not, seems justified given these nameless people have spent the entire thread demonizing anyone who dared propose a differing opinion to their own. And they are being quite nasty about it too.
Such a comment stinks of hypocrisy. Where were you when people were being called idiots or naive and worse for their opinion. Strangely silent.
Dahz comment was more humour than a deep sarcastic dig .
Honestly
I started to notvread threads start to finish, particularly the pissy ones that are as much full of sniping as anything else. And most if the time I just skim past people endlessly bickering as it's not healthy.
E.g. the Keir Starmer thread.
Such a comment stinks of hypocrisy
Case in point
But yes, their is hypocrisy there. Such is the nature of reactive bickering.
Oh look, Russia is moving troops back to their bases
call me cynical, but the Russian Govt just saying we’re moving troops back to bases doesn’t really fill me with any confidence that they’re actually doing it.
Oh look, Russia is moving troops back to their bases
Not to their permanent bases, but to staging areas near the Ukraine border. Just as you would do prior to launching an invasion.
Oh come on Thols, give it a rest, you're making yourself look like a silly billy now.
Where's my ten bob?
I believe the BBC are saying "some" troops. Given they have a reported 100 to 130 THOUSAND on the North, East and Southern boarders, even moving 10% of those (10-13k, so the equivalent of 20 UK regiments when fully staffed) leaves them with more troops near the borders than the UK has in total.
you’re making yourself look like a silly billy now.
Russia says they are returning troops to their bases and you believe that this is all over? LMAO. Russia says whatever they choose, facts have zero part in what they say. That's a deliberate strategy on the part of Russia. They know that everyone knows they're lying. They also know that everyone knows that Russia knows that everyone knows that Russia is lying. The point they're making is that they don't care about facts and they view people who do care as stupid.