Mark Hertling has a Twitter thread on M1 Abrams tanks.
https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1616792766167789570
On that subject
https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1617064545788522497?t=H8ac4bDq6cObz5qoMPDw1w&s=19
Poland is now buying tanks from the US and South Korea. A gigantic business is lost for Germany. It is particularly painful because one thing has become clear with the Polish decisions: Germany, the neighbor, is no longer a strategic, trustworthy partner. That's now the faraway United States and even farther away South Korea. It is this confidence card that the US is now playing on in the Ukraine war.In the background, they offer used tanks from their own stock as a replacement and a long-term industrial partnership to any country that could supply Leopard 2 to Ukraine. This is what is reported in German industrial circles. Any country that responds to the American offer is lost to the German tank industry. And with every country that loses German industry, Berlin's political influence on its allies in NATO and the EU dwindles.
Baerbock saying Poland can send L2 tanks if they want....
Also many of Germany's politicians are criticising Scholz for his indecision.
There is lots of weird politics going on around supply of equipment which is hard to understand unless, I suppose, you are an expert but even then I guess most of those who do have a clue about British armour isnt going to know much beyond that.
Its not helped by some of those countries being at the front of the queue offering weapons are doing so either because they are next up for Russia and/or are handing over their almost expired stock/obsolete weapons in order to get some decent kit in return.
As a random example its a bit of a shame we happened to have destroyed our old rapier missiles just before things kicked off. We could have saved a decent amount of cash safely destroying them if we had known and just stuck them 1st class to Ukraine.
I am not sure how much being able to hand your kit over to a third party will really be an influence with regards to the more expensive gear. For ammo sure (looking at Switzerland here) but for tanks or planes?
On that subject
I was wondering if someone would eventually consider this angle
Also many of Germany’s politicians are criticising Scholz for his indecision
@alpin
I'd be interested to hear your take on German politics. I think that most are aware that the SPD is in a coalition with the Green Party and the FPD, both of which seem to me to want to send Leopard 2 to Ukraine.
The SPD seems to me to be the party dragging its feet, which I find surprising given that coal mining has expanded as a result of the war and is contrary to green aims, as is war in itself. I expected the Green Party to be banging the ceasefire/negotiation drum, far from it, Robert Habeck (Green) allowed the expansion of coal mining and Katrin Goring-Eckardt (Green) called Scholz's indecision disappointing.
I don't read German, please help me out here.
Any thoughts on Russlandversteher/Putinversteher within the higher echelons of Germany?
@timba DW news is also in English. The exact same articles on the German site, just translated.
I can't say about the general feeling of people because I've not been in Germany since October.
My feeling is that the older generation were generally against war, the "nie wieder Krieg" (lit. vet again war) generation. The ones who lived through the post war issues of Germany.
Some opinion pieces in the "High-brow" papers, those read by those with lots of time in their hands have been very much against delivering weapons (Krieg ist die falsche Reaktion auf Krieg)
War is the wrong reaction to war
DW, with a younger audience has opinion pieces criticising the delays.
One of my best mates wife is Ukrainian. It's been hard for him and for us. She's had several of her extended family members killed or seriously wounded. Her father, aged 62, spends his free time digging trenches and training along the Belarus border.
I can’t say about the general feeling of people because I’ve not been in Germany since October
Ah, okay. I've heard/read a lot from Jessica Berlin, who is associated with DW.
I was interested in that more general perspective, thanks for your comments and best wishes to your mate's family
Some chatter now that the UA have entered the outskirts of Kreminna, pushing up from the forests to the SW of the town. If true it could be that they are able to start to push RA out of a vital logistics hub, pretty much severing the North / South logistics and supply route that runs through Svatove and into the North Donbas. This makes Severodonetsk vulnerable and will severely disrupt the RA logistics effort supporting Bakhmut and Soledar.
It’s certainly taking time, but the RA have been able to dig in and prepare a proper defensive line, with the troops to man it through conscription. Looks as if better weapons, tactics and training (not to mention morale) are winning through.
Few tanks wouldn’t go amiss though..
I'm not sure that this should be in the sunak thread, but FFS!
https://twitter.com/jimfitznews/status/1617580880935153666?t=lqrRfSAPhbjpgq3eS2OAhA&s=19
Needs to go on the Sunak thread - discussion on thereabout Russian money and its influence on the tories
Some chatter now that the UA have entered the outskirts of Kreminna, pushing up from the forests to the SW of the town.
Links please! 😀
Thrilled to see that once again that UK professional services and consulting organisations are enabled and emboldened to do the dirty work of those with the deepest pockets. How do these educated and informed people sleep? Ignorance is not a defence.
Seems like the Russians are not the only ones struggling with corruption!
once again that UK professional services and consulting organisations are enabled and emboldened to do the dirty work of those with the deepest pockets
What's worse is Government departments supporting them, which is using public money.
Seems like the Russians are not the only ones struggling with corruption!
The flip side is that those guilty of corruption in Ukraine (that make it into international news) are being forced out.
Not discounting corruption in Ukraine, it’s serious and arguably endemic. But if government officials find themselves out of a job I’m taking that as a good sign. Could do with some of that in the U.K.
https://twitter.com/sabfis3/status/1617943710179921920?s=21
Looking out for anything that firms this up.
Sorry Kimbers, I did miss your Wagner related post here… saw that story this morning elsewhere, and posted it on the Sunak thread. Still can’t quite believe it.
I strongly advise everyone to follow his link, and read it all. Freedom of speech… but “we” (the UK Treasury under Sunak) grant an exemption to sanctions to a Wagner Group top honcho to use our legal system to go after and try to silence a journalist for pointing out who and what he is. Jebus.
Looking out for anything that firms this up
Fantastic! Germany and the US have both declined to comment, which I see as a positive 🙂
14 A6 model from Germany, 100 from elsewhere, 14 Challenger 2 and the possibility of Abrams too (from the same source)
EDIT and I think from current stocks too
My inability to differentiate between real and parody continues...
https://twitter.com/GermanyDiplo/status/1617834372232785920?t=m1GJWZ8BjWrTnNNLZVNYpA&s=19
That is the actual German foreign office trolling the Russian Foreign Minister isnt it?
Looking out for anything that firms this up.
Süddeutsche.... That a proper paper and a good source.
That is the actual German foreign office trolling the Russian Foreign Minister isnt it?
I understand why you might be struggling, but almost unbelievably even the Germans can do humour.
Scholz has been under a lot of fire from politicians and the press about his indecision. Looks like it got through.
Slava Ukraini
Tanks on route or at least the paper work is on its way.
Only a wisper on the BBC news site but it's a wisper.
Wonder what deals been done with Poland as im sure they where about to send them without Germanys blessings.
Perhaps the dam will now break on military aid?
Interesting that the Netherlands are being so vociferous - maybe the Malaysian airliner full of heir citizens shot down by the Russians?
The US is to send 50. M1 Abrams tanks. Wow!
Scholz has been under a lot of fire from politicians and the press about his indecision.
I don't buy the "indecision" spin from the media and some politicians... ensuring this is a multi-national move is an essential aim for Germany, who don't want it to be a "German tanks enter conflict with Russia" story due to, well, history... it can't even be about Germany and geographically close countries (with German built tanks)... it's needs to be a wider move... and it looks like that could be about to happen.
🤞🏻
Let's hope we get something firm this week. If it's today, we'll have to wait for the USA working day.
Some credit probably due to the UK government for announcing tanks early and perhaps pushing the international response by doing so (it might have been even better to be part of a wider announcement, we'll never be quite sure).
Interesting that the Netherlands are being so vociferous – maybe the Malaysian airliner full of heir citizens shot down by the Russians?
Not only theirs- bit close to home for me that one
We might need a quiet word with our Dutch friends....
The US is to send 50. M1 Abrams tanks. Wow!
But do the Ukranian's have the 200 crew, 400 mechanics, 500 drivers, stores, trucks, space to repair etc these things?
I am still wondering if some of this is a political 'keep the pressure on Poo-tin' move so that he knows the Ukranian's are not being abandoned.
It also means the Russian commanders will have to be very careful about where and how they operate armour come the spring offensives - it 'steers' the Russian tactics some more into a place where Ukraine has more insight into what they are doing and where they are operating maybe? Might it tempt a couple more Russian airforce attacks which can be taken out etc etc.
All they have to do his make sure a few of the Western weapons are seen to be in the theatre of war,
Swiss have just voted to allow re-export of their arms to ukraine - this includes scarce ammunition for the Gepard Anti Ac systems. Very good news.
USA announcement now. It's official.
Are the tanks a game changer or too precious to be anywhere near the front?
Are the tanks a game changer
Leopards, yes. Abrahms, no. But it means a wide response, not a "German led" one.
Use the Abrams as rear guard around Kiev. Then they are in country and have served the purpose of releasing Leopard tanks from German embargo. So Germany et al who said we will send tanks if you send Abrams cant now back out.
Thay are big, the M1A1 was around 60t iirc so bridge weight limits become critical. Plus all the transport required. I think the Leopard is multi fuel, like the challenger but the Abrams is jet fuel only ad its a turbine. Fast though, be in crimea in no time.
100-200 modern tanks of any flavour , plus 100 Bradleys, 50 Marder, 50 AMX10, 50 CV90, 100 new western SPG and hundreds of new APCs. Yes, that lot is pretty game changing.
The leopards weigh about as much (all the main western tanks are heavyweights) plus the Abrams engine is multi fuel.
Very good news!
Looking a year or two ahead when the focus has moved to securing Ukraine's borders, having Abrams experience is a good idea. The US can probably deliver them more easily than Germany can Leopards in large numbers.
Yes, long term they'll be essential. This year though, it's the Leopards that are needed, ASAP.
Anyway, good announcement from Germany and USA, a relief that it wasn’t just rumours.
Abrams engine is multi fuel
Absolutely. I keep seeing that it runs on jet fuel only, it doesn't.
The original design was a diesel-fuelled turbine engine and it'll also run on petrol or aircraft jet fuel. The US tend to use jet fuel because it's logistically simpler
Newer upgrades include an auxiliary power unit to keep systems running without the thirsty main turbine burning fuel
Spec-wise the three MBTs are similar and Challenger 2, Abrams and L2 all use a 120mm gun that uses common ammunition. Challenger 2 uses a rifled gun that will also fire HESH rounds, which has been a UK preference. The smoothbore guns on Abrams and L2 will also fire HEAT rounds but not HESH
Trent Telenko (Twitter) says that an Abrams power pack can be changed in an hour, that's a complete unit with transmission, cooling and exhaust systems. The broken pack can be sent back for specific repair
Are the tanks a game changer or too precious to be anywhere near the front?
They're part of a system, there's an article here...
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-supply-of-advanced-tanks-will-give-kyiv-an-edge-over-russia-and-move-it-closer-to-nato-197592
The article is pre-Leopard announcement and the information yesterday was that the German contribution will be the more capable A6 variant
Bottom line is that MBTs are meant to take ground as part of that system. Current numbers are maybe half of what Ukraine wanted, but that could be a bargaining position
