Nope. Just making the point that if you stood in our local high street and asked everyone who passed which option they'd go for:
1 Give out foreign aid
2 Pay £250 less in taxThat those who actually paid tax would go for option 2.
Depends how you approach them with it. If you blurt out a sensationalist soundbite without any context. I'd guess a 2.
Govts have a habit of just wasting our money on stuff that really doesn't benefit their populations - and certainly not in a VFM way
because govts are imperfect this is no reason to not try and help people.
As for the tax thought question that has gone past a leading question and is straying perilously close to a misleading question. It serves no point anyway as we know what people think about foreign aid from surveys where they have been asked what they think.
Watched him on the news (phew, it wasn't the lead story!) and I am not convinced that he was attempting to ridicule African or Africans. He was simply showing his stupidity and inability to articulate a potentially valid point about amount/ring fencing foreign aid without resorting to terms that (largely) died out 20-30 years ago. He came cross as old, out-of-date, essentially ignorant and rather pathetic rather than anyone capable of genuine malice.
Farage will be glad of the publicity and CMD even more so. He (CMD) can come across as the reasonable face of this in the face of UKIP baloney.
I am not convinced that he was attempting to ridicule African or Africans
LOL ! 😀
No of course not, he genuinely thought that bongo bongo land was another, perfectly acceptable, term for Africa !
I bet if he was to meet an African person he would freely use the term bongo bongo land when talking to them !
And as for the grammar school educated financial economist having an [i]"inability to articulate"[/i] you're having a laugh - right ?
[I]As for the tax thought question that has gone past a leading question and is straying perilously close to a misleading question. It serves no point anyway as we know what people think about foreign aid from surveys where they have been asked what they think.[/I]
But this is exactly why question should be asked in an easy to understand way, as tbh most folk seem either plain ignorant or just not curious about money. Especially that spent by Politicians (see 3 and 4 below).
There are 4 kinds of money:
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2190-milton-friedman-on-the-four-ways-you-can-spend-money
Who has said anything about discrimination
Well you haven't but if you read through all of the responses you may find at least one referral to racism.
Was he trying to ridicule Africa ? Or was he just criticising the fact that our politicians are sanctioning the gifting of billions of pounds of cash either from the tax take or from borrowing when there is often very little to show for it in terms of improvements for the people it is intended for.
I don't know why you think i seem to think that it is ok to ridicule Africa, i have spent 5 months of this year working in West Africa and probably the next 3 months, not something many folk can do if they are contemptible of the place and people.
I have seen at first hand several examples of where money for projects has just dried up, one was a water extraction and treatment plant meant for an area were people ran the gauntlet of cholera every time they drank, not everyone can afford bottled water.
I have absolutely no issue with foreign aid for genuine development.
That sounds awfully scary like the scourge of benefit fraud
I think you know you need to present actual facts rather than hypothetical scenarios
Your sarcasm detector is a little off today.
Was he trying to ridicule Africa ?
So you also think that the term bongo bongo land is not a term of ridicule ?
Seriously mate, I ain't got the patience to argue with disingenuous muppets.
sorry 😳
But this is exactly why question should be asked in an easy to understand way, as tbh most folk seem either plain ignorant or just not curious about money
We want to know what they think about the foreign aid budget hence why it is not a great question
I didn't think he was being specific about Africa, it seemed to me that he may have been referring to any of our old colonies. Or any other coumtry inhabited by Jonny Foreigner.
He's a risible old fool seeking media attention and to misinform the public, whilst reinforcing the prejudices of his own supporters - well done the BBC for failing to tear him apart in this morning's interview.
But there are questions to be asked about foreign aid. Why is the UK borrowing money to give to ****stan when the ****stani govt has enough cash to spend it on nuclear weapons? If a govt chooses to buy weapons rather than education/healthcare/food why should we borrow money to fill the gap?
Well, yeah, but if you only have aid to well-run countries, you wouldn't gave much development aid at all because well-run countries generally aren't underdeveloped. Equally, even if ****stan were well run, their tax revenue would still never be enough to provide for its citizens basic needs. Finally, there is no displacement of government expenditure by aid for the exact reason that the state never had the intention to fund the good stuff in the first place; if they had, the need for assistance would not have arisen in the first place!
If you go to the DFID website and look at what's actually been done in ****stan, you will also see that it's not blank cheques to the government of ****stan. It's funding for very tightly drawn projects that are heavily scrutinized and mostly delivered by the private sector. The objectives are long term and have a reinforcing positive effect on governance that should alleviate the need for aid in the future: better governance in the civil service, better education and supporting women to vote. We (UK) have a significant self-interest in reducing the number of poor, vulnerable people in ****stan.
Meanwhile, all of this is a total sideshow to the billions of dollars the UK is spending fighting a war in Afghanistan and northern ****stan, and propping up the narco-kleptocracy of Karzai. The figures there dwarf the amount spend on aid.
Seriously mate, I ain't got the patience to argue with disingenuous muppets.POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #
Muppet eh, i suppose you could post a link to that, seems to me Ernie anyone who opposes your superior world view eventually succumbs to some form of puerile ad hom attack !
Anyone who thinks the term bongo bongo land isn't a term of ridicule is a disingenuous muppet.
As I said, I can't be bothered to argue.
Oh good, I have another "badge" to wear - "disingenuous muppet". Cheers!
Ernie, perhaps you might like to have more chats with people of that generation to understand the context. The sad truth is that he exhibits behaviour that he and others like him believe is acceptable and inoffensive. [b]That is the real point. [/b]. Note how he felt no compulsion to retract the comments until ordered by the UKIP leadership? He thought it was an [b]acceptable and appropriate[/b] term to use in the meeting that was filmed. Watch the clip and you see the lack of malice and ridicule. Again that is the real and the sad point. As roger put it, he is merely a risable old fool with plenty of "form" to back that up.
Just because you don't [i]intend[/i] to sound like a bigoted racist old throwback, it doesn't mean you're not one.
True.
[i]Nope. Just making the point that if you stood in our local high street and asked everyone who passed which option they'd go for:
1 Give out foreign aid
2 Pay £250 less in tax
That those who actually paid tax would go for option 2.
Depends how you approach them with it. If you blurt out a sensationalist soundbite without any context. I'd guess a 2.
[/i]
Or just use the words I wrote, and it'd be 1?
teamhurtmore - MemberThe sad truth is that he exhibits behaviour that he and others like him believe is acceptable and inoffensive. That is the real point. . Note how he felt no compulsion to retract the comments until ordered by the UKIP leadership? He thought it was an acceptable and appropriate term to use in the meeting that was filmed.
There you go again suggesting that he's in some way educationally subnormal, earlier you were claiming that the senior UKIP politician had an [i]"inability to articulate"[/i].
Godfrey Bloom isn't the brainless idiot you make him out to be. He didn't use the term bongo bongo land because he couldn't remember the correct term for Africa.
Do you really honestly think he would refer to bongo bongo land when speaking to an African because he thinks it is [i]"acceptable and inoffensive"[/i] ffs.
I struggle with the concept mentioned a while back that Gideon made him look stupid. Gideon can make the daftest dunce look good merely by appearing in the same room as them.
I would have thought that Gidon and Dave's views aligned pretty well with Godfrey's though......just a different party badge on them.
Did Mr Bloom mention Africa? I got the impression he meant any country that aid from us is misapreated it into sunglasses. It was the Labour spokesperson on the Today programme and the BBC that mentioned Africa. All this publicity for him and UKIP should play well to those that think aid is a waste. If the various parties are going to attack UKIP and reduce their vote, then getting them on something like £11Bn(did not know it was this much till yesterday) we spend on aid is not the one. There are other issues that they pulled down on, the danger is that UKIP are building into a populist party. They may never win an election but enough of them could be elected into various areas that they move the political agenda to the right rather than the centre ground. What I'm saying is the we should keep calm and only address them on the issues and not the personalities. Look at Boris, the more condemnation he got for being an idiot the more popular he became.
Hmmm...Boris is a very different kind of "idiot", he is a much more considered and planned fool.
Or just use the words I wrote, and it'd be 1?
We know its a [mis]leading question - that is why you keep repeating it and it would still be a crap question to ask regarding what peoples views were on this issue as it doe snot even ask them. Why are you still doing this ?
Why are folk still trying to explain it to you?
Again I thin k we can accept many folk dont want to pay tax and for many different things however we still have actual surveys that tell us what they think about foreign aid. We do not need this poor thought experiment that tells us what they think about paying tax which is still not the same thing
This is not hard to grasp or comprehend tbh.
You may well prove that a large number of folk dont want to pay tax though no one seems to dispute this and it is not the issue we are discussing.
The sad truth is that he exhibits behaviour that he and others like him believe is acceptable and inoffensive. That is the real point.
TBH anyone with an ounce of manners , when informed they had used a term that could be considered to be racist , in fact so much so even Farage said this, would apologise for any unintentional offence caused.
Did he - no he rejoiced in his infamy and that he had annoyed folk
The fact he was told it was offensive and he did not retract or apologise makes your he did not meant to offend argument somewhat implausible.
We can all use the wrong terms but we apologise when we do unless we actually want to offend folk.
Just as an aside - I did see Mr Bloom on the news and thought "This guy is barking and needs therapy - either that or a blow job" - I've noticed that "I don't agree with this person's opinions" is often translated (usually by the left wing of the STW collective) as "This person is an idiot".
Almost as if the critic has, like Norman Mailer, run out of words...
What I admire most about Whoppit is the way speaks to those he disagrees with on religious threads- never rude, never name calling always respectful.
You then to call the left names names for calling him names whilst telling us off for calling him names
You are a self awareness vacuum .
What I admire most about Whoppit is the way speaks to those he disagrees with on religious threads- never rude, never name calling always respectful.
Of course.
You then to call the left names names for calling him names whilst telling us off for calling him names
Not sure what that means. Who's calling "the left" "names"?
You are a self awareness vacuum .
Junkyard, master of self contradiction.
[s]Hey he Junkyarded me there but with proper spelling and everything[/s]nope I would not notice that would I 😉
Not really interested in hitting big with you Whoppit. Its obvious you have done what you have objected to and equally obvious you will argue about it rather than concede the point.
Thanks for your continued interest prompting a message of your lack of interest. My day is now complete.
I was interested to hear Godfrey support his position by registering support from "the pubs, cricket clubs and rugby clubs of Yorkshire".
Not a HUGE constituency, then. Although, it IS "god's" own country, apparently. 😀
There is a report on foreign aid by Civitas which makes interesting reading.
A recent study for The Lancet documented how aid funding earmarked to supplement healthcare budgets in Africa prompted recipient governments to decrease their own contributions. Moreover, "for every dollar received in aid money earmarked for healthcare, which more than doubled from $8 billion in 1995 to $19 billion in 2006, African governments diverted up to $1.14 to other areas"
In many African countries, the presence of a large, rich NGO sector has a more negative effect. As Michela Wrong says of Kenya: ‘If you have a good degree are you going to go into business with it or politics? No you go into the aid world because that’s where the fancy cars are and the titles.’
Much more interesting stuff in the report.
piemonster - Member
Only if you wear a dress and sit on my knee
Well, if I must, but it still wont change the fact that there is nowhere called Bongo bongo land so logic dictates no one who could be offended, perhaps had he said bunga bunga land and potentially upset a bunch of italians, the 'offended left' would not be running around waving their hands in the air screaming racist as normal even though technically it would be.
The other point missed in all this, is that it is exactly what that new Tory election waller was accused of setting out to do, ironic it happened fairly shortly after.
Love them or hate them, the danger in too much vilification of a group like this is the Oxygen of publicity it brings, this guy has now spread the message far and wide and trust me outside of this rarified left wing atmosphere, there are lots more like him, disenfranchised voters looking for a bandwagon to pile onto, very dangerous in my view.
Anybody else taking on that Civitas report? I've not yet got past the introduction (page xii) but I'd love to hear if anybody can pick any holes in it.
This may have done before, so feel free to flame if so.
But Godfrey Bloom is Richard Wilson and I claim my £5
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there is nowhere called Bongo bongo land so logic dictates no one who could be offended
There is no where call short arsed slitty eyed communist monkey land either but I bet you can work out where i mean and it is still offensive
Fat bastard burger eating meat head gun tooting KKK land of the free
Shall i do some Islamic ones as well? Perhaps one based on israel
What a rubbish argument and it is not logic
the 'offended left'
Farage /UKIP told him to stop, are they part of the Offended left?
The reality is a right wing man uses a phrase so poor even UKIP ask him not to.
Result- Blame the left for this :roll
From a person lecturing me on logic
Oh the ironing
Are you one of those not very clever pseudo left wing intellectuals that didn't actually get a first Junkyard?
Or just adept at deliberately missing the point of the entire post?
Which was, the danger in being deliberately offended at a remark like that with the end result of publicity beyond his wildest dreams...
Brought about by the not quite so bright offended left, probably quietly engineered by those clever Tory electioneer types, exactly as you are reacting to that post - duh.
ernie_lynch - Member
Seriously mate, I ain't got the patience to argue with disingenuous muppets...[POSTED 14 HOURS AGO]...As I said, I can't be bothered to argue...{POSTED 7 HOURS AGO]...There you go again suggesting that he's in some way educationally subnormal, earlier you were claiming etc...[POSTED 6 HOURS AGO]
C'mon, Ernie you are a guy who likes (and likes others) to choose your {their} words carefully. You don't have patience to argue with "disingenuous muppets" and yet you came back again? Shucks, does that mean we have to hand back our "disingenuous muppets" badges now? And it really looked initially that you were deliberately trying to be rude and that you were serious with the insult?
I don't know Bloom in person so have no idea whether he is a brainless idiot or not. However, I can comment on his words in this case and in others - they are brainless and idiotic. Or perhaps I have missed something, do tell?
Like a lot of UKIP nonsense, there is a very small kernal of an issue that has popular appeal but which they "present" in such an appalling and exaggerated manner that they "fail" under the slightest scrutiny. So yes, again, he (and his colleagues) do seem to have an inability to articulate points sensibly. QED.
TBH anyone with an ounce of manners , when informed they had used a term that could be considered to be racist , in fact so much so even Farage said this, would apologise for any unintentional offence caused.
Very true Jy, very true. Perhaps he should join the John Terry club?
So, there's nothing to the idea that foreign aid is a failure, then?
A not so clever offended pseudeo intellectual failed first getter lefty earlier yesterday
However, party chairman Mr Crowther told Sky News: "In my opinion it [Bongo Bongo Land] is a rather outdated description of foreign parts."To me it doesn't sound like anybody banging drums. It sounds like a shorthand way of saying places around the world which are in receipt of foreign aid.
"It's not in itself the right word to use and it could seem disparaging to people who come from foreign countries and that's why I've asked him not to do it again."
Mr Crowther told the BBC: : "It is lazy language, it is old-fashioned, and it is not language we want to hear used by our senior party members. That is a mistake Godfrey has made and he will not make it again."
I am not really that interested in trading insults when there is an actual debate to be had by making actual rational points rather than making broad sweeping attacks on the left or me.
Essentially a right winger used a lazy term that some find racist that is what the problem is. If you wish to blame others for his behaviour then you are missing the point by some distance and not IMHO accidentally
Its a reasonable point that the publicity will doubtlessly be beyond his wildest dreams but that does not mean we should have ignored the language used
Are you still claiming "logic" dictates it was not offensive as you seemed to miss that bit whilst accusing me of missing the point?
FWIW the education of the protagonists in a debate is no evidence of right or wrong - however widely you wish to throw your childish accusations. Its a fallacy known as an appeal to authority.
I could have a first or no qualifications it has no bearing on whether the argument I make is right or wrong and that is what you need to tackle. You wont defeat it by hurling insults no matter how petty they are.
A fine example of the stupidity of Godfrey Bloom's approach. The story is now about his racism instead of being about the issue that he was trying to raise, which.... seems to be being ignored, here at least.
Indeed the issue does deserve debate - interesting read that report though I am no further in than you were [ exec summary]
It does seem it could, like anything else humans do, be done in a better manner and it raises some interesting points.
I guess two issues
1. Do we want to help people/do foreign aid
2. If yes is what we do effective
that report covers point 2 and to summarise it says its rubbish and not as effective as it could be
His comments have not engendered the debate he would have liked and may well be worth having.
Its being ignored here because not everyone seems to agree with UKIP about his word choice.
So in effect, his statement has simply helped to keep buried the actual, needful discussion. Presumably not what he intended, given his comments to Guru-Murthy on Channel 4.
I would go some way to describing him not as an idiot, but perhaps as a raging barker who's a bit thick.
Probably quite religious too, I shouldn't doubt.
Forgive me for giving you the benefit of the doubt wont happen again
Woppit, you were doing well for a moment [the stupidity bit] and then...."probably quite religious." !?! 🙄
😀
Wondered if someone would rise to it. Naughty me.
I'm on page xviii
A-ha!
Like any other organised religion, foreign aid fulfils
deep psychological and emotional needs, while having
both good and bad effects on the real world. It has its
priests and followers. It employs large numbers of people.It has state and private elements and is exploited by
powerful political and economic interests. And like many
religions, it requires that its adherents make leaps of faith
when reality fails to match up with doctrine.
Interesting parallel.
