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I suspect some of the true believers will decide he is clearly wrong and we need to buy into the idea that multi nationals can do what they want.
Hey we like our inefficient utilities inflating for no good reason, and for the service to be shit.
It's pragmatism not ideology.
The government can't afford it. FFS.
To be fair when Pie, LBD, Marina Purkiss start mouthing off they might take note.
We are being taken for the biggest ride of our lives.
This must be the most shocking and depressing development since the formation of the current Labour government
Group of Labour MPs urge No 10 to be tougher on migration to fend off Reform
What sort idiot believes that is the way to counter the threat from Reform UK? Even if the halfwits who are pushing this line are too moronic to be aware of what has and is happening in Europe how the **** can they be so ****ing ignorant of what happened in the UK in the run-up to the last general election..... were they asleep ffs?
The last government tried to play Reform UK at their own game making immigration a priority issue and demonising those seeking asylum. The result was utterly predictable - they drove voters straight into the arms of Reform.
If you keep banging on about immigration and asylum seekers/small boats long enough then eventually a significant amount of voters are going to be convinced that it is a serious issue which needs to be urgently addressed. Voting Reform becomes the obvious solution, as the Tories discovered to their cost last July.
One MP said they had been unimpressed recently by the response of ministers at recent briefings when asked about the possibility of processing asylum seeker claims offshore – something Starmer has said he is open to. “Even though the party policy is that we might do this, ministers have mainly been stressing how expensive it would be,” the person said.
So the Tory Rwanda policy was rightly dismissed as both a pointless gimmick and complete waste of money but yet now Labour MPs are urging the government, for exactly the same reasons as the Tories, ie to deal with a far-right threat, to come up with another pointless gimmick and not worry about the cost!!
They feel that the same tactic which totally backfired on a Tory government will somehow magically do the opposite for a Labour government!
To sum up........ voters weren't convinced that the Tories would be tougher on immigrants and asylum seekers than Reform but voters can be convinced that Labour are just as tough or tougher on immigrants and asylum seekers than Reform!
History repeats itself first as tragedy second as farce.
But this is where it starts to get sinister:
Another said they had urged ministers to be more vocal about deportation flights.
One said: “We need to take tougher action on immigration, but we also need to shout louder about what we are doing.”
More vocal and shouting louder is clearly about cultivating a hostile and toxic environment towards immigrants and asylum seekers. Not satisfied with leaving the culture war to the bigots and racists in the Tory and Reform parties these Labour MPs want Labour to join in.
The central argument that centrists make is that whatever else is true they are still better than the Tories, even if it is just a little bit better, they now seem hellbent on demolishing their own argument.
Furthermore the centrists don't even understand the problem. The latest mega-poll shows that the people who are now being attracted to Reform include many left of centre voters who support multiculturalism and see immigration as positive.
The way to weakening Reform is to attack them on the NHS, economic justice, the environment, housing costs, etc. And maybe replace the self-serving careerist who gets wealthy donors to buy him his suits with someone who connects with voters and has some sort of genuine convictions.
This must be the most shocking and depressing development since the formation of the current Labour government
There are some who get it, but I’m sure many on here would dismiss the likes of Clive Lewis as a rabid lefty Marxist.
https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1886885789142749254?s=46&t=LtLH_brmYFWrcPalxgEeWA
With every passing day I conclude that the PLP is mostly populated by self serving, spineless, cowardly arseholes.
The way to weakening Reform is to attack them on the NHS, economic justice, the environment, housing costs, etc. And maybe replace the self-serving careerist who gets wealthy donors to buy him his suits with someone who connects with voters and has some sort of genuine convictions.
This all over.
What is it with Labour and political suicide?
Looks to me as with the Tories part of the problem is this unelected tosser in the shape of Morgan McSweeney.
What sort idiot believes that is the way to counter the threat from Reform UK?
Unfortunately this is Labour's MO. Their model is to sand the rough edges off the Tories, now that Reform is effectively the opposition they've shifted even further to the right. They still haven't learnt that voters prefer full fat to diet Coke.
What is it with Labour and political suicide?
Thank god this isn't a Labour banner
Thank god this isn't a Labour banner
Well I know it doesn't say "The Labour Party" anywhere on the poster, and they have very cunningly used that same lovely shade of blue that Reform UK uses.......mimicry is the greatest form of praise..... but we can safely assume that it has been produced by a now truly desperate Labour Party.
Personally I think thank God it wasn't the Tories who produced it otherwise this thread would be in meltdown due to the outrage it would have generated... dog whistling, scraping the bottom of the barrel, racist, bigots, etc etc
As it is it will be quietly ignored. Or maybe some half arsed attempt to justify it..... targeting immigrants and asylum seekers in pursuit of easy votes is acceptable because Labour racists are nicer and kinder than Tory racists, probably.
Yesterday it was immigrants, today it's benefits claimants. Punching down seems to be very popular.
Brexit Britain, huh.
Good point, the Labour Party didn't target immigrants, asylum seekers, and those on benefits, in pursuit of grubby votes when we were in the EU.......I blame Brexit !
For one horrible moment I thought it might have something to do with Keir Starmer, so it's great to be reminded that he is in fact blameless and it's all Nigel Farage's fault.
Brexit Britain, huh.
Given Labour are in power maybe just maybe they could try really hard for it to not be Brexit Britain by trying really hard to not be both the Tory and now the Reformorons.
I mean, we have one of each of those.
And we do know this will benefit Reform not Labour in the polls. No one believes Labour because of this form of flattery.
I think Labour have really confused about everything.
https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Hinder/status/1887604345220243642
I suppose Labour could stick one finger up to UK voters, call them bigoted, spell out why immigration is a net good... and in some ways I wish they would... I'd cheer a switch to this approach personally... but hey, the lessons of 2016 & 2019 have been learnt by Labour. They got into power last year talking up reducing immigration, they have their dumb arse redline of not accepting freedom of movement in Europe and all the other benefits that could come with that. Why? Because of the Referendum and the "Get Brexit Done" election. Lesson learnt. Taught by all those that cheered on Brexit in 2016 & 2019 and beyond. And don't pretend that wasn't about immigration. It was. The people of England have spoken, and to ignore them is to accept a role where you may be right, but you're not in government. Fine for the rest of us, not a great plan for UK politicians (those seeking all UK level government anyway). The London Mayor can safely speak sense, The First Minister of Scotland can safely speak sense... lucky them.
I'd rather labour had a more intelligent, nuanced view on immigration, one that seeks to take advantage of the positive aspects of some forms of immigration, while acknowledging that concerns around impact on wages, jobs, inequality, access to services, infrastructure capacity and social cohesion all have some degree of legitimacy when it comes to other forms of immigration.
However, the reality is that having considered views and smart policies doesn't seem very important in modern politics, if it ever was.
They got into power last year talking up reducing immigration,
Are you actually arguing that the electorate went for Labour because of their anti immigration policies?
I live in a solid tory voting area populated by many right wing bigots and racists. Following Labour's election win all I seemed to hear from locals was that the country was now going to be flooded with immigrants that "we're all paying for."
Perhaps a message like the one above is needed to get the message across to certain sections of society that a properly funded processing system can be more effective at controlling immigration than hair brained schemes like shipping them all to Rwanda or bombing them in the chanel.
Perhaps a message like the one above is needed to get the message across to certain sections of society that a properly funded processing system
Maybe but why do you think it would get through to them and why would they vote for labour even if it sort of does when the tories and reform can always promise to be more bigoted.
So all you end up with is a)a massively shifted overton window and b)a bunch of people wondering why they should vote for this new bigoted labour
If they properly funded the state they would have less need to convince certain sections of society that migration is this huge problem needs to go away.
Almost all the opinion polls in the last week have given Reform UK a lead over all the other parties, they have very nearly doubled their support since the general election, if there a general election tomorrow Reform UK would more than likely be the largest party and the King would have to ask Nigel Farage to try to form a government.
The sudden change of fortune for Reform UK in the last six months has nothing to do with immigration. The issue of immigration is fundamentally exactly the same now as it was six months ago.
What has fundamentally changed in the last six months though is that we no longer have a Tory government. Reform UK has massively benefited from the fact that the majority of voters, including a huge chunk of Labour voters, do not approve of the direction which the Labour government is heading.
Now you might argue there is little that Labour can do tied as they are to failed neoliberal policies, the alternative would be social democratic policies which we know that Labour centrists firmly rejected during the 2015-19 period, so there is no chance of challenging the status quo and neoliberal orthodoxy.
Okay fair enough, but don't pretend that immigration, asylum seekers, and benefit claimants, are the problem. The problem is a Labour government which is offering people nothing more than, doom, gloom, the status quo, and some elusive growth/jam tomorrow.
It was clear from the general election result that voters were sick and tired of Tory policies, including austerity, so why offer more of the same and expect voters to back you?
The mega-poll commissioned by Hope Not Hate a few days ago identified that many of the voters who have switched to Reform UK in the last six months are actually left of centre and supportive of both immigration and multiculturalism (plus government intervention)
But I guess for centrists it is easier to blame immigration, Brexit, Nigel Farage, racism, anything, rather than the totally uninspiring leader of the Labour Party.
Growing support for Reform UK should be seen for what it actually is......an act of desperation on the part of voters.
I suppose Labour could stick one finger up to UK voters, call them bigoted, spell out why immigration is a net good... and in some ways I wish they would... I'd cheer a switch to this approach personally... but hey, the lessons of 2016 & 2019 have been learnt by Labour.
Well good for you for not denying that Labour has resorted to dog-whistling and trying to appeal to bigotry. It represents an uncommon and refreshing level of honesty.
Althoug we all know that the only person who will win at that game is Nigel Farage.
Oh how we ridiculed and berated Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman for trying to out-bigot Reform UK/Nigel Farage, the consequences were of course totally predictable. Now it's Labour's turn. History repeats itself......
Maybe but why do you think it would get through to them and why would they vote for labour even if it sort of does when the tories and reform can always promise to be more bigoted.
Because they can take in simple facts and I don't think the pursuit of bigotry is their aim as most of them don't realise that they are bigoted.
And sorry, I don't know what an overton window is and cba to google it.
If they properly funded the state they would have less need to convince certain sections of society that migration is this huge problem needs to go away.
Most likely yes as many of them see immigration as the cause of most of the problems that are actually caused by underfunding the state. But I think even the most liberal minded amongst us would agree that uncontrolled immigration is not the answer?
Most likely yes as many of them see immigration as the cause of most of the problems that are actually caused by underfunding the state. But I think even the most liberal minded amongst us would agree that uncontrolled immigration is not the answer?
My take would be immigration has generally been allowed to overtake issues the current government could actually start to fix tomorrow.
It's mostly an angry distraction in my opinion - many liberals accept Tory framing of economic policy, (lack of money, BoE interest rate policy, money comes after growth) which is a much bigger problem for society.
Austerity has become an accepted norm to fix problem created by austerity.
For example Labour came to power moaning on about the the fiscal hole in finances (bullshit) rather than coming to power complaining about the state of public services (reality.)
Labour thought they could use the arguments the Tories use about finances - it backfired - people still think they're soft on immigration and are communists.
May as well have done radical stuff from the bottom up.
My take would be immigration has generally been allowed to overtake issues the current government could actually start to fix tomorrow.
Absolutely!
people still think they're soft on immigration and are communists
Hence the reason I accept them using posters like the above.
Would you accept the Tories using posters like the above to prove that they aren't soft on immigration too?
Should all political parties use racist dog-whistling? Just to gain votes of course.
If it wasn't so dangerous and tragic it could be useful material for a comedy script.....
"I hear that you are a racist now Father, should we all be racists?"
And by dangerous I mean it creates a highly toxic environment for immigrants, obviously.
Interesting few articles in the Indie today... One says Starmer is great for kicking out his health minister for being racist/sexist, and probably other 'isms'.
Great fine, crack on.
And another article on the same page asking...
Is Starmer an just an HR manager who’s squatting in Downing Street?
I mean... what is he suposed to do? allow a sexist and racist minister to remain on the job?
Thought he'd been kicked out for hoping a pensioner would die soon?
With some of Labour's policies that's probably a given
And that.
So yes.. Racist, sexist and wants pensioners to die.
Not exactly a vote winner... Or is it? He'll probably join reform I guess.
I Think that was just the 'straw that broke the Camels back' , so to speak.
Interesting view on Reform's growing success on the radio that I heard - I think R5 - which ties a bit into an earlier post about starting to attract support from all quarters. Because they don't yet have any policies that you can definitively point to, people are hoping they're a bit of a blank canvas and their policies will/can be moderated by the support that it would bring them. So supporting some more palatable version and holding their noses against the bad stuff for now.
I can't see it myself, while policy-lite they're pretty obviously racist, etc. and I can't see that being moderated given who owns and supports them and direction of travel in the past couple of years. So when that hope evaporates, so will their support from those that aren't Reform supporters really, but are pro-reform (small r) given that none of the parties are currently offering very much different.
Another interesting point made was that the tories had a 20+% poll lead at the equivalent into their last term. 4.5 years later that had turned into the election results. A week's a long time in politics, said the panellists, and reading current polls and thinking that had any prediction relevance to the next election in 2029 was only just filling time on Radio shows for now.
"Because they don't yet have any policies"
So they can sell whatever they like... Don't like this? we'll ban it!,
Want 'more of that' ? So do wee!
It's easy to manipulate 'the stupid', so look out for more cuts to education and social services!
Would you accept the Tories using posters like the above to prove that they aren't soft on immigration too?
If the tories achieved any success in controlling immigration I would expect them to be crowing it from the rooftops.
Should all political parties use racist dog-whistling?
So controlling immigration = racism?
Because they don't yet have any policies that you can definitively point to
So in a very very similar position that Labour were in two or three years ago then.
Labour's big selling point was "we're not Tories" and having very little in the way of policies helped them hugely because nonexistent policies cannot be dissected, criticised, and discredited.
All Starmer had to do was say very little, something which he particularly apt at, whilst watching the Tory government preform own goals and discredit themselves in the eyes of voters.
Today Reform UK's big selling point is "we are not Tories or Labour" and keeping mostly quiet beyond that will likely work for Nigel Farage as it did for Keir Starmer.
In the past the "we are not Tories or Labour" worked very effectively for the LibDems but luckily for Nigel Farage Nick Clegg's irresistible attraction to ministerial limousines appears to have permanently discredited them.
The Tories lost the 2024 general election but with Labour on only 2% more than in the 2019 general election Starmer became prime minister more through default than anything else. It looks increasingly likely that Nigel Farage might become PM in 2029 for similar reasons.
Which is why Labour appear to have started panicking in the last week or so..... most opinion polls of the last week show Reform in the lead.
So controlling immigration = racism?
No of course not. But don't tell me that you haven't heard of dog-whistling !
The message will be very audible to the targeted audience. And yes it will add poison to an already toxic environment.
I am sure that I wouldn't have to explain any of that if it was a poster campaign by a Tory government. And of course Tory supporters would also feign innocence.
In fact Nigel Farage himself would strongly deny that he is racist just because he believes in controlling immigration!
Who would have thought that centrists would make the same argument with regards to controlling immigration as Nigel Farage?
Or perhaps more importantly who is shocked?
Today Reform UK's big selling point is "we are not Tories or Labour" and keeping mostly quiet beyond that will likely work for Nigel Farage as it did for Keir Starmer.
Yep, if labour don’t start pulling rabbits out the hat like an octopus on speed to turn peoples opinion on them 🙁 .
Farage also has another 4 years he can drip feed lies and he’s on the TV every day 🙁
or bombing them in the chanel
Ah, the sweet smell of success...
Who would have thought that centrists would make the same argument with regards to controlling immigration as Nigel Farage?
Or perhaps more importantly who is shocked?
Centrists are deeply unaware that they themselves simply lag Tories in thinking by a few years.
Can you imagine Centrists talking up controlled immigration during the Brexit years?
Yeah right.
The trouble with not having a progressive position on something is someone else will enforce your position with their hateful arguments.
Also I still say move the debate away from Reform's anger with good progressive policies and not doing banners that resemble your hero team's thinking.
None of this will work of course as was pointed out during 2024 campaign you can't ape the right. But apparently it was time to get the gloves off.
Should we be done with it and combine all political threads now?
Can you imagine Centrists talking up controlled immigration during the Brexit years?
Hi! Filthy 'centrist' here! 🖐️
I'm no economic expert, But I am quite well travalled - Immigration is a good thing, we (UK) have always had the ability to accept or deny the problematic few %, but successive governments have done everything other than what they should be doing....god forbid they do some actual work!
Pay to process them correctly...swiftly and fairly. It's more humane and it's cheaper for the tax payer.
But instead, we had the 'Bibby barge', Rwanda and who knows what other hair brained schemes - anything but, it seems, to actually do anything tangible about the issue, whether that issue is real or a media perception, is pretty much a moot point.
How much money has the UK tax payer wasted on 'phantom deportations' and buying rusty old boats for well in excess of what they are worth?
Someone is making a lot of money, and it's to the detriment of the UK public, genuine economic working migrants, and genuine asylum seekers.
That just perfectly proves rones point
Rather than actually make a point about labour following reform and the tories path to scapegoat immigration as the cause of problems created by austerity, lack of investment in public services and economic inequality, all you can do is "look the tories". Not as bad as the poster above mind, who supports racist dog whistles "because other people are racist, its not me honest.
Tbh, I haven't read Rones point to know what your getting at, or the recent chat that informed your response. As the forum is almost unusable to me at the minute. So apologies, I've no idea what informed your response. I wasn't really making a point myself, it just popped up as something interesting I thought I'd share on, the source article is linked if you can access the post proper
My post was a response to mattyfez's above yours, your post wasn't visible when I posted mine.
The centrist modus operandi is obvious...... the clue is in name "centrist".
The entire centrist argument is based on the belief that the best way to effectively fight the Tories is to meet their voters halfway, ie the centre.
To convince them that you share many of their concerns and priorities. Which is of course exactly what Starmer has attempted to do during the entire period he has been Labour leader. He has even gone as far as describing himself as a "conservative".
So it is perfectly logical that centrists would use exactly the same tactic to fight Reform UK...... meet their voters halfway.
And the excuse they offer to those uncomfortable with the shift to the right and/or bigotry is exactly the same......"I would much rather we didn't have to do that but, you know, it's what the voters want' (a claim which is actually often untrue)
How about offering some leadership and using persuasive arguments instead of blindly following the agenda set by the Daily Mail?
Obviously that would require some sort of commitment to something so I can see a problem right there, especially for someone like Keir Starmer.