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PPE is on the BBC this morning. If you don’t like waste, then look away now.
I genuinely would have no issue with the waste if it was justifiable and ethical. In the mad scramble some overbuying simply to secure orders was probably necessary. But the corruption by tory politicians around PPE procurement was disgusting.
Mone got exclusivity at the expense of kosher suppliers with kosher stocks by using the VIP lane. She pocketed £29m by putting lives at risk with shonky PPE. Including my wife - who I begged to invoke her history of respiratory illness to avoid face-to-face 'service' but she refused as she didn't feel her condition was serious enough to warrant it.
I am still angry when I think about that. I haven't seen Michelle Mone using any food banks lately, so I can only assume crime pays - if you're a well-connected Tory crook, that is.
dissonanceFull Member
but didn’t think to bring some alcohol free beer for him.
Why if he doesnt like it regardless of the alcohol.
Why? Because it makes for a strange photo, at what is supposed to be a photo opp. Although I assume a photo-op in a pub with a teetotaler was arranged by the same person that though an event at the titanic museum was a good idea on day 1 of the campaign, or announcing the election in the pissing rain. That said, this could have been very easily mitigated with an ounce of forethought, and a bottle of alcohol free beer.
This itself is obviously not the issue - the point is the competence of the campaign seem to be commensurate with the competence of his government/MPs etc. I'm still amazed at the abject stupidity of an MP sending dickpics to a stranger on the internet, and now we have loads betting on the date of the GE.... they are just Muppets
@ElShalimo you have misunderstood my point completely.
Those fleeing conflict zones (among others) are fully entitled to come here to claim assylum. That's what the system is for. I'd put on free boats or planes for such people to avoid them having to risk their lives in overloaded dinghies.
But there's more to it than that. According to a Guardian article there are indeed plenty of people who are being promised better lives as economic migrants presumably by people trying to take their money. The lack of genuine information plays into the hands of the unscrupulous who convince them to take the trip.
nowt wrong with a pint of water so long as it is in the correct glass. Never a dimple jug only a straight glass.
Oh, right, that's is why it looks weird. Was trying to put my finger on it, but that's it.
the people smugglers are breaking the law and deliberately circumventing the processes we have; and also recklessly endangering lives with very unsafe practices.
This is a pretty odd position where you are sympathetic to people coming by any means necessary but the people who are actually the ugly tool for making it happen are criminals and queue jumpers. It's sympathy for the people arriving but only in the abstract - only if they use Fairtrade approved people smuggling services that pay the London Living Wage with an A rating on Trust Pilot. Of course they break laws and it's dangerous: the laws are designed to limit people crossing borders! There's a reason BA and Eurostar won't take them.
I’d put on free boats or planes for such people
Well, go on then..
The lack of genuine information...
What information do you think the Vietnamese migrants are missing out on? How would you know?
Plenty of issues with asylum seekers in the UK - the fact it takes 2 years or so to ascertain their status, the fact that UK law breaches international law. The fact that there are no legal routes to claim asylum for most refugees.
Smallboats are a tiny part of the issue.
nowt wrong with a pint of water so long as it is in the correct glass. Never a dimple jug only a straight glass.
Teetotal or not - If I was in Rishi's shoes that would be a pint of neat gin and deep seated hope I could just wake up again in 10 days time with a headache and it will all be over.
Plenty of issues with asylum seekers in the UK – the fact it takes 2 years or so to ascertain their status
How long do you think it should take?
Meanwhile, the results of 14 years of Tory misrule just keep on landing
Low wages under Tories have pushed 900,000 UK children into poverty, report finds
the fact it takes 2 years or so to ascertain their status
A common theme across all the conservative party's managed failure of public services is using under-resource of necessary public services to drive tax payers money into private hands.
The desperately slow processing of asylum claims is because the government is shouting about asylum but failing to resource its own commitments - the result of that under resource isn't spending less money - its spending more money - not on home office staff, or border patrols - but on hotels.
The desperately underresouced social housing sector is resulting in increased homelessness - doesn't result in less government expenditure but more government expenditure - not on house building, not on government or council-run supported acccomdation and homelessness services - but on hotels.
In some parts of the country - half your council tax - HALF OF YOUR COUNCIL TAX - is being spent on hotels.
Social care budgets, half way house services, addiction services and so on and so on - they're all being used to build private property portfolios with public money.
This is a pretty odd position where you are sympathetic to people coming by any means necessary but the people who are actually the ugly tool for making it happen are criminals and queue jumpers.
That seems to be the accepted position from what I've read (in the sympathetic press) yes. People smugglers aren't doing it out of altruism, generally speaking, they seem to be exploiting the vulnerable which is a bit of a no-no as far as I'm concerned.
What information do you think the Vietnamese migrants are missing out on? How would you know?
Presumably that they aren't entitled to permanent settlement; that they will be exploited; that the safe passage and better life they're promised is a lie.
Plenty of issues with asylum seekers in the UK
Yes, and this is my main point (rather than the fine details which I clearly am not in a position to address) - that we could be doing a lot more than simply rounding them up, detaining them and shipping them somewhere else. To bring it back to the topic in hand - what we need is a government that wants to work to solve issues properly.
Maybe information campaigns would help, maybe not - I just pulled that off the top of my head after all - but let's have that discussion properly, with intelligence and compassion.
@maccruiskeen nails it!
It’s all about driving public money into private hands
Their latest (very profitable) wheeze, to provide ‘solutions’ to the problems they created through underfunding of councils, is once again to monetise the plight of the most vulnerable in society
They really are vermin
Nowhere else is available’: how vulnerable children end up in illegal care homes
Well because the people smugglers are breaking the law and deliberately circumventing the processes we have
@molgrips what proceses are they then?
How does someone enter the UK and claim asylum as part of the process? Any process.
There's a reason they're using small boats and it's not to get around some documents and heel kicking.
Elections, pretty much any election, fail to get me excited because I feel I just don't really have a say in it.
My area has been Labour since the 60's. The MP has been here since 1997 I think. I've had one leaflet so far, from Labour, no one else is bothering. They always win by something like 15-20,000 votes.
I'll probably vote anyway, just feel like it's pointless. Yeah I know on a national scale it does matter ('if everyone said that' blah blah) but practically speaking, my vote counts for nothing at all.
Well because the people smugglers are breaking the law and deliberately circumventing the processes we have
Suella Braverman, as home secrretary (so obviously an authority on such matters) explains those safe and legal routes available to asylum seakers wanting to enter the UK.
I've been working over the last 2 months in one of Manchesters less salubrious areas, directly across from a hotel used to house asylum seekers. A Holiday Inn. My window looked out on it. Its a pretty grim existence. They're out in the car park playing footy (when its not lashing down). The idea of being housed there for 2 whole years doesn't really bear thinking about.
Some people drink water by the pint. I do. What’s the point of a thimble of water on a warm June day?
Absolutely agreed. Hot day, probably been on bus all day, first chance for a big drink of water. Neck a pint of it when you have the chance. Really strange thing to criticise someone for.
On PPE and covid era I'm surprised there weren't more decisions that can be presented as poor in hindsight. On a retail level, shops at some points were selling single masks for £5-10 that were worth 10p as if you forgot one you weren't allowed in the supermarket. Most homes in the country will have ended up with a box of them somewhere in a cupboard they will never use or that the elastic broke every time on.
At government level we saw the same. Countries outbidding each other for supplies in the millions, imposing export bans and so on. Every part of the world wanting them immediately not in two years time, so normal six month procurement processes would clearly not have been appropriate - you placed an order immediately or some other country did, knowing you were paying over the odds and possibly something was wrong, but had to secure supply.
A labour government would have been in the same situation at the time. We've schools still locked into 30 year PFI contracts from the last Labour government that mean they can't re-arrange the chairs without a fee, pay £302 to change a plug and have a company linked to Labour cronies cut the grass weekly all winter.
Not a dig at Labour, point is they are all just as bad as each other. To my original point, there's no material difference between the L and C ideas for the next term, or new money to make big commitments.
I’ve previously supported Labour - especially under Corbyn but I’m generally of the thought that you vote them out, not in.
Im in a solid Conservative area and the tactical vote is LD incidentally LD are the only flyers and placards I’ve seen in the area.
I was pleased to see this note from Tom drop through the door.
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/tYjLzysF/IMG-3759.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/tYjLzysF/IMG-3759.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Are you seriously suggesting that the 'VIP Fast Lane' wasn't just a free pass for their mates to get their snouts in the trough?
Would you like to by these beans I have here? They're magic beans! Honest!
Absolutely agreed. Hot day, probably been on bus all day, first chance for a big drink of water. Neck a pint of it when you have the chance. Really strange thing to criticise someone for.
IT'S. A. STAGED. PHOTO. OP.
The point (and I can't believe it needs making again, but here we are) is that the conservatives can't seem to even organize a photo-op in a pub without cocking it up.
Sunak has withdrawn the Whip from 2 candidates, presumably its the 2 we know about already!
utterly predictable & ridiculous that he let it drag on so long
Well because the people smugglers are breaking the law and deliberately circumventing the processes we have
there are no legal routes for the folk using small boats - thats the issue. Deliberately done by the tories to create a "crisis" so they can exploit it. Also when we were in the EU there was agreements in place to return folk. Now there are not.
UK law is in breach of international obligations.
skooby39
Absolutely agreed. Hot day, probably been on bus all day, first chance for a big drink of water. Neck a pint of it when you have the chance. Really strange thing to criticise someone for.
Not seen the video of the walk around in the Tory battle bus I take it? Noone is dying of dehydration there but that's hardly why I posted the picture.
He's the PM, his campaign is all over the news for it's (shocker) incompetence. All the leaders are under a microscope.
Images matter in a campaign, everything matters and he himself invited the "strange criticism" with this wonderful start to his campaign:
Not a campaign pic, just Sunak totally showing he is a man of the people with a good head for finance and contactless payment methods. Oh, and he fills up strangers cars on the forecourt. Which is nice:
After a wonderful start to the campaign he decides to continue telling us what a wonderful utopia we live in from where the titanic was built:
How does someone enter the UK and claim asylum as part of the process?
When you get to the border you tell the border official that you are claiming asylum and that starts the process.
I suspect that the traffickers will tell people that when you get off the boat Dave will meet you and take you to your new home, but Dave does not exist. Something along those lines. Or if he does, he'll take you to a sweat shop of some kind and take your phone away.
(I cant add more pics to my post for some reason. )
Remember this picture posted endlessly by the RW press during a certain campaign skooby39?
You might not like my pictures as it doesn't fit your narrative but perhaps you need to contact Sunak's campaign team about it skooby39?
When you get to the border you tell the border official that you are claiming asylum and that starts the process.
IIRC the tories passed a law that if you arrived by unconventional routes you can no longer claim asylum. so this no longer works unless you have full papaers and arrived on a routine mode of transport. which is 99% impossible.
Basically there are no legal routes to claim asylum in the UK
In other news the totally non arrogant and competent Tory party has finally convinced the totally non arrogant and competent Sunak to start enacting the inevitable betting scandal U turn...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cqqqqx25rz0t
Hang on – I thought we had to wait for the report from the official investigation by the Gambling Commission?
Oh, they have assured us it doesn't prejudice the gambling commissions investigation which is totally why they have held off from suspending them for so long.
Nothing to do with the media tearing him apart at every opportunity they get. Then his own party tearing into him.
Ahem.
Brighter news..Canadians dealing with illegal immigrants in a way we can all get behind.
https://twitter.com/I_amMukhtar/status/1805490793035026603
Sunak has withdrawn the Whip from 2 candidates
Do candidates even have the whip?
IT’S. A. STAGED. PHOTO. OP.
The point (and I can’t believe it needs making again, but here we are) is that the conservatives can’t seem to even organize a photo-op in a pub without cocking it up
They launched the campaign by failing to even manage to organise an umbrella.
Just had the reform lot round sadly they are being very well received due to ending net zero of all fu*king things.
its not hype as I've had some of the old Tory guardians (think conservatives with a very small c) tell me they are doing well in the Darby and Joan type clubs.
They have abandoned the Tory mp here as he has gone absolutely AWOL and sadly its left them with reform or labour and not many will go red as the local council has been historically red and a shit show of dithering.
If people don't vote it's going to be tight here.
**Don't hate me for knowing torys not all the apples in the barrel are rotten and full of bitter hate. ***
The really bad ones don't even like the traditional ones 😄
I did have a good talk with one of the labour camp on the doorstep and they know it's going to be tight
martinhutch
Full Member
Brighter news..Canadians dealing with illegal immigrants in a way we can all get behind.
That's just utterly joyous! I mean absolutely bloody joyous!
He lied about having a conviction when he entered the country apparently.
Bloody criminal immigrants. 😂
Longer John Oliver video in this tweet
https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1805513574921441612
I don't think Sky can show this due to purdah laws but well worth a watch
IIRC the tories passed a law that if you arrived by unconventional routes you can no longer claim asylum.
I THINK you're right, but I also think it's not being used as it directly contradicts our obligations to the Refugee Convention and would fall on its arse if put to the test. Instead, they're just processing claims really slowly and hoping for the best.
I also read that Sunak's method of reducing the waiting list was taking people off it and putting them on a different list that didn't count.
Are you seriously suggesting that the ‘VIP Fast Lane’ wasn’t just a free pass for their mates to get their snouts in the trough?
Would you like to by these beans I have here? They’re magic beans! Honest!
Quite.
Perhaps Skooby can come up with a reason why Arco - who are a pukka supplier of PPE and had stocks in Q2 of 2020 - were excluded from the VIP lane despite offering their services on many occasions...?
I know this for a fact because I spoke with a friend who is a senior manager there about a year later. Various employees had asked the directors why, during Q2 of 2020, their stocks were not being utilised. My friend's phrasing was "That Baroness woman mate of Cameron's who used to sell bras got in their and we were excluded". I'm pretty sure the Arco CEO is now on record at one of the covid enquiries stating all of this.
So, Skooby, why did a recently constituted company, with no stock of PPE (just 'contacts') end up netting £29m for Michelle Mone in preference to an actual supplier with actual stocks of pukka PPE who repeatedly made themselves known to the government? That in itself caused unnecessary delay. When the knock-off shite that Mone procured turned up some of it was already soiled by usage. Much of it was substandard. Why did this happen?
Try buying a ticket on any conventional international carrier, without a valid visa.
Seriously, do some people (who appear to be politically engaged) not know this?
I do know this. I was asked what the process is, and I replied. TJ is absolutely correct in that it's a complete stitch-up designed to be impossible to use, so that the Tories can appeal to their core supporters. I don't disagree with any of that - I'm just pointing out that from what I can see, the people smugglers themselves are crooks taking advantage of the vulnerable whilst not caring what happens to them; rather than providing an essential lifeline out of compassion.
There is SO much that could be done to make life better for people in need, but the Tory government of the last 14 years has not bothered to do any of it, being more concerned about votes. Fat lot of good it has done them too.
It'll be interesting to see if anyone tries to take credit for Assange's negotiated release given that Starmer said to the Swedes 'don't you dare' drop charges against him.
couple of weeks tops.
@tjagain a noble goal but IMO unachievable, it takes about that long to do a CTC and that's in the same country with functioning infrastructure.
If I was going to pull a figure out thin air (and I realise that's all it is) then 2-3 months seems more realistic though I'm not sure how deep checks go and it's all dependent on whether there's something/someone working with you at the other end.
In any case, I agree 2 years is orders of magnitude over what should happen, if someone really needed to take that long then a temporary asylum order should be a thing (allowing them to work and actually do something productive) pending full checks.
@spectabilis - tactical recommendation from Carol Vordermann's site - LibDem
https://Twitter.com/JohnJCrace/status/1805536697985192355
So Rishi had all his MPs out on the airwaves (well... all those who haven't already dissapeared) defending his decision not to suspend the candidates, right up until the point he suspended the candidates?
How very Johnson-esque.
Thats bound to enthuse all of them about defending any future decisions that may be open to complete reversal within seconds, with no consultation
Do candidates even have the whip?
Probably not technically speaking but for convenience its the best term to use since the key punishment available for the whips is to withdraw support at election time.
It says a lot about the tories that I am surprised they actually reacted fairly quickly to the gambling commission removing the excuse about the tories having to wait for the gambling commissions investigation before doing anything themselves.
The question is whether there are any other candidates who are under investigation but havent been named publicly.
The question is whether there are any other candidates who are under investigation but havent been named publicly.
There is so much chatter about a minister being implicated that I think we will find out at some point (after the GE?) that it's absolutely the case.
I mean looks at the ministers? I'll be shocked if it's only one that actually took a bet out!
I wouldn't be surprised if the delay before action was so that Sunak could find out if any 'big names' had a flutter as well. So probably no cabinet ministers. Unless the normal Tory due diligence strikes again.
right up until the point he suspended the candidates?
Harry Cole hit home with this (yes, I dislike him as well, but he got this right)... when Sunak was blustering along about investigations he just said... "surely, you know if you told these candidates the election date before they placed their bets"... ball totally in his court after that... had no choice but to drop the candidates named. More to come...?
Do we feel the actions of individuals here are more or less of a concern than something like the institutionalised Cash for Honours deals that heralded the end of the last Labour government?
I'm happy with whatever equivalence you need to keep yourself happy - as long as we're heralding the end of the current Tory government.
It's perfectly normal to be concerned about evidence of corruption in government, but probably more relevant to focus on ones involving the current lot rather than a Labour government of 15+ years ago. Unless you don't mind everyone chatting about the Westland Scandal, 'Cash for Questions', Suez, and the Profumo Affair as if they still mattered.
Do we feel the actions of individuals here are more or less of a concern than something like the institutionalised Cash for Honours deals that heralded the end of the last Labour government?
I think there is a particular issue with making personal profit out of it although since you bring up cash for honours. Whilst a bit out of date in 2021 it was reported how if you wanted a seat in the Lords probably the best option was to become the tory party treasurer and donate at least three million personally (okay this might be tricky for most of us).
Nine of them had been given a peerage from 2010 to 2021 along with another 13 major donors. Oddly several of those gave three million, got the peerage and then never donated another penny.
don't forget the Marconi Insider trading scandal of 1912
right up until the point he suspended the candidates?
As I understand it, he can't actually "suspend" them a party can withdraw support for a candidate now.
But seeing as voting slips will have been printed and have their names on, it's essentially too late, people will be able to vote for them, if they were to actually win (would be quite an indictment of the voters if they did though) that seat having been disaffiliated by the party they'd either have to take it up as an independent, or do the honourable thing and immediately stand down prompting a byelection.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the delay before action was so that Sunak could find out if any ‘big names’ had a flutter as well.
I think it was purely down to just trying to ride it out using the "wait for the official investigation" line. After all outside of another leak its unlikely to happen before Sunak is off to the USA.
However the gambling commission last night/this morning wrecked that option with their rather clever response telling labour "no we wont give you all the names" and the tories "you dont have to wait for us".
Do we feel the actions of individuals here are more or less of a concern than something like the institutionalised Cash for Honours deals that heralded the end of the last Labour government?
reiterating from 5 pages back but it still stands
Someone famous once said that the past is another country.
So trying to make an issue from 2010ish relevant for an election in 2024 is overreaching.
In the here and now - Let’s talk about corruption/bad morals in Sunak’s Tory party (gambling allegations, dodgy HoL nominations, Tees Enterprise Zone, PPE VIP Lanes, Hester donation), and what corruption/bad morals in Starmer’s Labour party looks like (errrr.....), and there is clearly no equivalence…....
I know, i know, we should stop feeding the troll......
tjagain Full Member
How long do you think it should take?
couple of weeks tops.
TJ - have you ever been involved in an asylum application? Have you ever read one? Do you know what has to be proved for an application to be successful?
Edit to add: it's currently 3 weeks for DVLA to swap paper licences for photocards, which seems a bit (cough) more straightforward.
https://www.gov.uk/exchange-paper-driving-licence
" a well founded fear of persecution" ????
Aye OK - couple of weeks is pie in the sky. A question tho: does it need to be that complex? could they just get the right decisions first time so we do not have to have so many successful appeals? could they not make it easier to go thru?
Oh - and just 'cos DVLA is slow as a glacier does not mean it has to be that way 🙂
5 met cops being investigated for betting
i do so hope more Tory MPs get caught too
and first post farage-putin love in shows a reform dip
https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1805582226429538532?t=fY4ruBC2HHSMZPn1ek7lrg&s=19
At government level we saw the same. Countries outbidding each other for supplies in the millions, imposing export bans and so on. Every part of the world wanting them immediately not in two years time, so normal six month procurement processes would clearly not have been appropriate – you placed an order immediately or some other country did, knowing you were paying over the odds and possibly something was wrong, but had to secure supply.
A labour government would have been in the same situation at the time.
Oh, so a Labour Govt would've stripped out resources and ignored Test Event findings & recommendations?
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/pandemic-preparedness-warnings-were-ignored-hears-inquiry
just ‘cos DVLA is slow as a glacier does not mean it has to be that way
I saw a tweet apparently of a screenshot of the old TV programme Driving School. Maureen had failed her test on a Tuesday so was going to have to wait until Thursday to try again. Good luck getting one within a month nowadays!
Same as that clip of Blair getting a telling off from an audience member on Question Time because "I phoned my GP for an appointment and ask they could give me was one tomorrow or the day after, but I didn't want to see them until next week"!
And this is a reflection of the mess we're in with basically all public services. I'm probably well into the "sixth former" region of binners' political spectrum 😉 but at this point, with how degraded public services are, I'd be quite happy with a rerun of New Labour and the investment that comes with it ("get the bus that's going in the right direction" etc etc). My worry is that we'll actually get Cameronian austerity 2.0 which will just continue to make everything worse.
Oh, so a Labour Govt would’ve stripped out resources and ignored Test Event findings & recommendations?
They probably will in future, they'll kind of have to if they're going to follow the plans they've set out in their manifesto:
Applying the listed “extra” spending pledged by each party to a real terms base case for total health spending annual growth of 0.8% would result in the next four years being the tightest in NHS history under the Conservative and Labour pledges – tighter even than the coalition government’s “austerity” period,
If you want to know how degraded public services are: fall off your bike, injure yourself badly but not life-threateningly, then phone an ambulance.
NHS will be fine under labour. Streeting is going to use the private sector to solve all evils
If you want to know how degraded public services are: fall off your bike, injure yourself badly but not life-threateningly, then phone an ambulance
And count yourself it's not life threatening:
More than 250 patients a week could be dying unnecessarily, due to long waits in A&E in England, according to analysis of NHS data
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68707883
Which is 250 reasons per week for the Tories to be out, but we need a change from what got us into this mess, and it wasn't giving away dodgy peerships, it's continual underfunding of public services. Doing the same but without the 'PPE contract for your pub landlord' element won't fix anything, people won't see anything improve so will boot Labour out after 1 term.
“ If you want to know how degraded public services are: fall off your bike, injure yourself badly but not life-threateningly, then phone an ambulance”
Showing up at A+E with chest pains, then spending 12 hours there was an eye opener and I jumped the queue a bit.
Having been on occasion a bit clumsy, I’m not a stranger to A+E, but it has been a while.
So possibly 1000s of Richard Holden's leaflets have been delivered to the wrong constituency addresses
what a terrible mistake, how could it ever have happened?
its almost as if the local conservatives bitterly resent him shoehorning himself into the 'safe' seat against their wishes
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1805600607169896822
Showing up at A+E with chest pains, then spending 12 hours there was an eye opener and I jumped the queue a bit.
I called 999 with chest pains a couple of years ago. 4hr wait. I spent 8hrs or so on the tiny plastic chairs and ended up being ok. I presume they made a calculated judgement based on the fact I was the one who made the call...
They probably will in future, they’ll kind of have to if they’re going to follow the plans they’ve set out in their manifesto:
I'm not paying a lot of attention to it TBH as it's just like when I've taken on a new job or inherited a new team - I've 'ideas' but without actually seeing the actual state of things, they're only 'ideas'.
First thing is do an 'audit'.
Then budget/rebalance needed (late autumn I would guess); that's when Starmer is able to tell us what he believes the priorities are, for short, medium and longer (subsequent parliaments) terms. 14 years will take a lot of clearing up.
First thing is do an ‘audit’.
Then budget/rebalance needed (late autumn I would guess); that’s when Starmer is able to tell us what he believes the priorities are, for short, medium and longer (subsequent parliaments) terms
And this is how rejoining the EU becomes a Labour imperative if he is to grow the economy.........
Here's hoping!
bails
They probably will in future, they’ll kind of have to if they’re going to follow the plans they’ve set out in their manifesto:
Sorry, only quoting you due convenience rather than "taking aim" at you as it were! That's not my intension mate.
It's now abundantly clear that Labour will either have to borrow, increase taxes or both to improve the countries public services.
Starmer has categorically said he will not put the country through austerity v2.0. He also knows that if things like the NHS are not objectively better, in say, 2 years? There will be a huge backlash and they will be a one term government.
So, why lie in the manifesto? I dont just mean Labour here, every party that has had their manifesto spending pledges analysed has been found wanting. All of them.
Well...
People rightly are up in arms about the NHS for instance but if Labour went into the GE announcing huge borrowing/or tax increases, no matter what the electorate say concerns them, a good segment wont vote Labour. Simple as that.
Everyone wants a good and well funded NHS but when it comes down to it, in the privacy of the voting booth, there is a statistically large enough amount of people that won't vote for a party that makes it plain they will have to pay more for it. Add in more borrowing for benefits/social care and to help the "sick note lot" and you compound the problem and the loss of votes.
I said it recently and I genuinely believe it, politicians lie because we make liars of them. A large section of society want simple AND cheap solutions to complex problems.
The politicians that "talk the truth and say what we are all thinking" can get away with it as they won't be held to account and they know it. Trump is an exception because he is a religion and of course he IS lying...
Sticking with the NHS here. I genuinely believe Labour want to improve the NHS, it's fundamental to their party and always has been. Even many Tory voters tend to acknowledge that the NHS functions better under Labour, "but that's because they throw huge amounts of OUR money at it!"
The shit thing is that they (Labour but any party really) know they have to lie to us about what they will need to do to improve things as the electorate (or rather, enough of it...) are proven turkeys voting for Christmas.
"You can't trust people Jez."
Anyway, just my take on things.
Linking back to binners post early about child poverty
The Starmer U-turn I'm hoping for is on the two child limit for benefits. It's a performative and cruel policy that has very little impact on UK finances, but punches families down into poverty
It's frankly embarrassing that the 6th largest economy in the world can't look after it's children
spawnofyorkshire
Full Member
Linking back to binners post early about child povertyThe Starmer U-turn I’m hoping for is on the two child limit for benefits.
Absolutely agree there. Financially it's the least of the governments worries, buys good will but most importantly it's the *right* thing to do.
Jonathon Ashworth talking to Victoria Derbyshire was talking about incrwases in growth being the route for Labour to achieve their financial goals.....and this report in the Graun shows lots of discussion about challenge of doing this outside the EU ....
Sorry, only quoting you due convenience rather than “taking aim” at you as it were! That’s not my intension mate.
No worries, not taken that way at all.
I think you're right that there's a lot of hope that we're being lied to!
susepic
Full Member
Jonathon Ashworth talking to Victoria Derbyshire was talking about incrwases in growth being the route for Labour to achieve their financial goals
Yep, short term, it's not going to happen... if we were still in the EU... who knows but regrettably we aren't.
It's a smoke screen, we all know there is going to be (increased) and hopefully, targeted tax increases.
I suppose it's odd that I'm relaxed about the huge fib of a manifesto to some?
In all honestly, it's because the fib is a necessary one to actually get Labour in and to start rebuilding the country.
I'm rather tired of Tory fibs as they are soley about improving their and their friends wealth.
That's the defining difference for me, the intent.