Lest we forget:
'Sir Keir Starmer has defended crediting Margaret Thatcher as a leader who effected "meaningful change".
The Labour leader said Baroness Thatcher set loose Britain's "natural entrepreneurialism" in an article for the Sunday Telegraph.' (2023)
Just realised I have about 20 minutes till I log on and see the announcement that we are in purdah and can't talk politics for 6 weeks.
Anyway, now we know why the civil service pay remit from the Treasury, usually announced in April for a June pay rise (ha, ha) was delayed till "in the summer".
Well explored on the Starmer thread (to death, in fact), I don't think many people are wildly enthusiastic about Starmer personally. He doesn't have Johnson's charisma or Corbyn's cult of personality. I'd like to see more Jess Philips and Lisa Nandy by his side. But moaning about Starmer's lack of perfection and blithely assuming the Tories will lose is a recipe for a Tory-Reform coalition hellscape which by an metric is worse than today or a Starmer government.
Lest we forget:
Indeed. My sense is that people will vote to get the tories out, and not to get Labour in.
My sense is that people will vote to get the tories out, and not to get Labour in.
Labour do not go far enough on the issues I want to see addressed, but voting anything but Labour round here risks a Tory MP.
I'd sooner risk being disappointed by Labour than the certainty of being ****ed over by the Tories. Again.
Are people seriously suggesting Starmer is worse than the current batch of twunts in power? Wow...
Labour will get my postal vote but there has never been a party that got elected and then moved to the left, always to the right. Starmer has already positioned himself on the right. 'Change' means sfa, it was the mantra first of Blair, then Cameron and now this flag fornicator.
This is the eternal labour issue. Some of them would rather remain in opposition and be able to bitch about everything than accept there will never be their socialist utopia.
The venn diagram containing the real world and them never intersects
This is the eternal labour issue. Some of them would rather remain in opposition and be able to bitch about everything than accept there will never be their socialist utopia.
This isnt really supported by the evidence is it? The centrists have demonstrated time and time again they would prefer to lose than have a party not run to their demands. Whereas the left wing still vote for the centrists leaders.
Although obviously this has been put under strain by Starmer and his purges of anyone vaguely leftwing whilst allowing right wing turds into the party.
Vlad, a lot of hyperbole that Starmer isn't all things to all. There are lots of things that frustrate me with how Starmer has gone about rebuilding the labour party, but by eck he looks a safer bet than anything else right now.
I'd rather be disappointed by centrist dad than the headbangers we have now. And hopefully the cautious approach will be eased once in power with a solid mandate. If not, then is the time to moan about him, but not so much to allow the tories back in!
Wow. Sunak is actually campaigning on immigration numbers.
2022: 745,000 net.
Maybe no one's told him the lower the number, the better
Are people seriously suggesting Starmer is worse than the current batch of twunts in power? Wow…
Don't think that's the case. I'm voting Labour but not because of Kier Starmer - I'm very meh about him as are many people I know. But beige is good right now.
I'd like to see more answers about how they will treat Water, NHS, Royal Mail sale to overseas buyers, Personal Tax Allowances etc. Hopefully we'll get more info now the gloves are off.
Lest we forget:
When people of the left say this sort of stuff about a Labour politician it just says to the world that they're wealthy enough that the result doesn't really matter to them and they don't really give two shits about the people for whom it could make a difference.
I find myself in a strange position this morning. Wanting to watch a Rishi speech again, it was a joyous slow motion car crash.
globe.com/scene/?id=vPPxPIZBE3Mv
Bum I don't know how to load gifs 🙂
A picture will have to do.
One thing the Tories have done is give long-term overseas residents their votes back (election act( 2022). I've just registered for a postal vote online. They've also done more to sort out NI, pensions etc. for overseas residents than any previous government. They seem to think they know how their bread's buttered, we won't know if they're right because overseas votes won't be diferentiated AFAIK.
Like MMan, I'd like to know what's being proposed for the NHS (apart from more privatisation), housing, water, minimum wage, renting, zero hours contracts, education. Yep, none of this directly impacts on me I just happen to be a champagne socialist. Nothing's too good for the working class.
The real scandal in Scotland is that kids who have schools used for polling are being swindled out of a day off.
(For the record, I lost one day only to elections, 1966. Remember the treat of a holiday.)
Remember your postal vote if needed.
When people of the left say this sort of stuff about a Labour politician
Luckily the only people saying it are centrist ideologues who demand unquestioning obedience to the glorious leader.
It's very much a thing to excuse Starmer's constant shifting to the right as 'okay', 'sensible' and pragmatic.
But it's a move to the right yeah? The thing you all screamingly hate.
The reality is he's done very little to push back against Tory plans because he is a Conservative. And there's not been a need for many of his u-turns or ridiculously daft economic logic. (Growth before spending - don't be stupid.)
You can't simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
I always find Centrists have such low expectations - they give Starmer an easy ride when they should be digging into his plans.
Starmer has to offer something pragmatic like water nationalisation for me to be even half interested.
Will see - come the manifesto.
When people of the left say this sort of stuff about a Labour politician it just says to the world that they’re wealthy enough that the result doesn’t really matter to them and they don’t really give two shits about the people for whom it could make a difference.
Not really. I am wealthy enough that the result doesn't matter to me but I also give many shits about the people for whom it could make a difference which is why I am disappointed with Starmer as he doesn't appear to be proposing anything that will make a difference. Being morally better and not such a populist culture war ****er doesn't ultimately make much difference to peoples lives.
The real scandal in Scotland is that kids who have schools used for polling are being swindled out of a day off.
Only the Protestant schools*.
* As someone who had to go to a Catholic school on polling days I'm still bitter about that 🙂
One thing the Tories have done is give long-term overseas residents their votes back (election act( 2022).
Not sure why that is a good idea? All the things you mention come with a cost and compromises which have to be carried entirely by those remaining in the UK unlike, say UK based pensioners, whose increased pensions get balanced by worse public services.
In all honesty, I hated the Labour government under Blair.
Why exactly?
I had an election just after my 18th and voted tactically. I knew that woman was a wrong 'un, but of the true extent of the horrors to come, I was of course blissfully innocent. (The current lot were also represented by an in your face NF campaign)
I just hope any Labour, Lib-Dem, Green etc candidates and MPs have got their personal security sorted with all the culture war hatred the Tories will be spewing for the next 6 weeks.
Not sure why that is a good idea? All the things you mention come with a cost and compromises which have to be carried entirely by those remaining in the UK unlike, say UK based pensioners, whose increased pensions get balanced by worse public services.
In the past I would have agreed.
However, the UK voted for Brexit which very much affects those of us living in Europe in that we are now at risk of not being able to live in Europe anymore and being forced to return to the UK because of policy decisions we had no say in.
On the one hand you have the pensioners but on the other you have a lot of younger people living abroad who have had their freedom of movement removed. Nothing has been done to help them.
but I also give many shits about the people for whom it could make a difference
Then given the system we have your decision is pretty straightforward, no? Do I think in general folks for whom it will make a difference will be better off under a Labour or Tory govt? The last 14 years tells you everything you need to know.
Wealthy enough for the result not to matter? I don't even live in the country but the result will matter. It'll influence how the UK gets on with Europe and the rest of the world. On the basis of the results in the last elections, strategy takes me to the lib-dems. I don't think Labour could ever win the seat I get to vote in and much as I'd like to vote Green the FPTP system means the vote would be lost in the noise. The Tories won with nearly 60% of the vote and an increased majority last time.
Yep, none of this directly impacts on me I just happen to be a champagne socialist. Nothing’s too good for the working class.
Enlightened self-interest is the way to go. Making the unskilled working person better off helps reduce the influence of the far-right in our political discourse.
However, the UK voted for Brexit which very much affects those of us living in Europe in that we are now at risk of not being able to live in Europe anymore and being forced to return to the UK because of policy decisions we had no say in.
I know more people who own houses in Europe that voted for Brexit than against....🤷♂️
I just hope any Labour, Lib-Dem, Green etc candidates and MPs have got their personal security sorted with all the culture war hatred the Tories will be spewing for the next 6 weeks.
There's already a load of stuff about how Labour are responsible for what's going on in Palestine, a #dontvotelabour thing on Twitter... It's going to be messy.
You can’t simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
I think Labour are much less corrupt. In recent years the Tories have just asset stripped everything. Nothing is done unless it directly benefits them or their rich mates. I'd like to believe that Labour are not riding quite the same gravy train to quite the same extent.
Not sure why that is a good idea? All the things you mention come with a cost and compromises which have to be carried entirely by those remaining in the UK unlike, say UK based pensioners, whose increased pensions get balanced by worse public services.
All I'll cost the UK as a pensioner living abroad is the proportion of a state pension I've contributed to. The country I'm in has to deal with the rest.
I'll cost the NHS nothing
No fuel payments
I won't occupy any housing
I won't have a bus pass.
I'll not need carerers or a place in a home
The best thing you can do for a country when you retire is **** off somewhere else.
I know more people who own houses in Europe that voted for Brexit than against….🤷♂️
That's according to the sample of people you know.
According to the sample of people I know (admittedly not all of them own a house in Europe but they all work there) the vote went 95% Remain, 5% Leave.
Making the unskilled working person better off helps reduce the influence of the far-right in our political discourse.
So we should have policies targeting them rather than the centrist swing voter? Rather than mostly keeping the swing voter happy and a few scraps for everyone else.
I live overseas and am registered to vote in my old ward. This thread was a timely reminder to make sure I was registered to vote postally(?) and I have used the website to do that today. Amazingly, it was easy to use.
Anyway, my old ward is a die-hard Tory one. I live in hope that people are finally getting tired of their shit there and that the Lib-Dem or Labour candidates can take the seat off them. Sadly, the last time there was change (sitting MP defected to a pro-EU party), the new Tory came in easily with a large majority. They would vote for anything with a blue rosette there, despite Cambridge itself being mostly liberal and flipping between Lib-Dem and Labour.
I am wealthy enough that the result doesn’t matter to me
You probable aren't - do you have a private ambulance service that'll pick you up if you crash your bike? Do you have private security that'll safeguard your neighbourhood? Do you only use privately maintained roads? Do you have an independent food supply that is unaffected by farming and border policies? Do you own all the land that surrounds your house so you won't be affected by differences in planning legislation? Do you have a private energy and water supply? Do you have a special climate bubble that surrounds you?
I'd suggest everyone is affected by the choice we are about to make - for some it's about living day to day, for others it's longer term but there's probably something that you'd notice.
which is why I am disappointed with Starmer as he doesn’t appear to be proposing anything that will make a difference.
You can’t simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
The Tories were corrupt, populist and overwhelmingly damaging to the UK from 2015 onwards.
Labour at the very least are promising to be none of those things,
but additionally are also planning changes to public transport:
Energy:
And a raft of other things:
including a closer alignment with our closest trading partner.
That seems like rather a lot to me....Cheaper power, cheaper transport, better environment and cheaper goods. That's a lot of difference in people's lives!
Labour at the very least are promising to be none of those things,
To be fair, I suspect the Tories are also promising to not be corrupt, populist and overwhelmingly damaging to the UK.
True, but having been notably corrupt, I don't think many people are buying what they're selling this time around.
You can’t simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
It's an interesting one. Those who hate the Tories the most appear to be the people who most support Starmer moving the Labour Party closer to the Tories.
I have little doubt that voter support for the soon-to-arrive Labour government will collapse fairly quickly.
In fact Peter Keller, formerly of YouGov, claims that Keir Starmer won't even enjoy the honeymoon period which all new governments invariably receive because there isn't that level of public appeal and goodwill towards Starmer which prime ministers taking over from unpopular predecessors can expect.
Both Tony Blair and David Cameron were reasonably popular before becoming prime ministers so the public were willing to cut them some slack, Starmer isn't. And his undoing will be the full glare of the limelight, not an issue which generally concerns opposition leaders much.
But whilst collapse in public support for Labour once in government is pretty much a given imo, I am not so certain about STW. I used to think that the tone on STW would change dramatically once Labour were in government but now I'm not sure. The level of denial that Labour has nothing to fundamentally offer appears to be so high that I am starting to doubt that even Labour being in power will change the attitude of many on here.
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK's basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties. A fair comment imo.
Farage doing his grifting in the USA, predictably, rather than trying and failing to become an MP here, again.
@dissonance "A rising tide lifts all boats", if one ensures the unskilled are bettered everyone else should also benefit.
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK’s basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties. A fair comment imo.
The best thing that could happen is that FPTP voting is ditched by the incoming Labour government, removing the dead hand of two-party politics from parliament would be the best legacy.
I doubt that they have the vision to make it happen though
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK’s basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties.
Let's hope so as it is now about as bad as it has been when the only noticeable difference between the two main parties is that one is a bit less ****y than the other one.
