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As a non-American I’m just wondering what Donald Trump has done or what policies he’s put in place in the last 4 years that would make anyone want to vote for him?
American politics isn't about policies, it's about persuading people to vote for you. So you just have rallies and tell people what they want to hear. That's all Trump does.
The fascinating thing about Trump is that his administration has actually done some things which should be good for people who would generally vote democrat.
If he stopped the lying and bluster long enough to point some of them out, the voters might vote differently. It's the constant ego-driven BS that gets in the way.
It's a long list but scan it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/11/opinion/fact-check-trump.html
Good news from Texas with the drive-through vote case being thrown out- that was pretty much a test, a petition which openly had no legal standing but which they'd hoped could succeed because the Texas Supreme Court is packed with republicans (and which they also knew that the supreme court would not overrule). It got absolutely laughed out, best possible outcome and hopefully a nice reminder for people that filling a court with republicans doesn't mean they'll break the law for you.
cromolyolly
Free MemberIf he stopped the lying and bluster long enough to point some of them out, the voters might vote differently.
Well sort of. Yes there are policies that he could pitch at a lot of traditional democrat voters, but only at the cost of admitting that most of his policies have hurt most of his current voters. He could never do both. I mean, he could try, by lying to both, but that hasn't worked out, because you can't fool all of the people all of the time especially when Some Of The People can literally see that you said something contraductory to another Some Of The People.
P-Jay
Full MemberThe Democrats have done what they needed to, okay Biden isn’t Bernie or Corbyn so those of a very left of centre persuasion think he’s worse than Trump, but he’s not.
No, they do not. The closest you'll get to "Biden is worse than Trump" is from the people who think 5 more years of Trump will basically trash the post-war concensus so badly that the next election can bring in an actual left wing government, and that it's basically harm today for progress tomorrow. But they're very rare.
I mean, "very left of centre" is rare in itself in the states so a subset of that subset is basically about 30 people with a geocities website.
only at the cost of admitting that most of his policies have hurt most of his current voters. He could never do both
The troubling thing is I don't believe for a second he needs to. His base will vote for him no matter what he says. They will parrot his lies until they sound true, even if they didn't believe them to begin with. He signed into law some pretty progressive criminal justice measures which will primarily benefit poor african americans while telling his base he was going to lock up everyone in sight and protect people from being attacked in their own homes. His base listened to what he said and I bet not a single one of them would know about the legislation.
I fear that we might be making the same mistake as the first time, where everyone took him literally, no one took him seriously.
Biden isn’t Bernie or Corbyn so those of a very left of centre persuasion think he’s worse than Trump, but he’s not.
Before he became Obama's bro, he was a seriously non progressive legislator. He voted against school bussing, for seriously draconian sentencing laws, for the iraq war. Not being funny but his time with Obama whitewashed that. Trouble is you don't really know what you are getting with Joe, other than not Trump. The really ironic thing is that Harris is being portrayed as a socialist. This is the woman who zealously prosecuted death penalty cases in California, and supported hardline policies that affected largely minorities. Who knows what you are really getting with her.
It's incredible to think that in this day and age, in a western country, people are seriously talking about the police and/or army going rouge, gun fighting in the streets between members of the public, the old Pres refusing to leave office ..... sounds like Zimbabwe!
Just listened to the bunker podcast with Brian klaas
In terms of election night itself, he said best thing to do is wait for results from Florida, north Carolina and Texas where mail in and polling booth votes are counted at the the same time so you ll get a final result at 3-4am our time. Those results likely to come in at a similar time
If biden gets any of those then it's done. Saves having to pull an all nighter.
northwind - the separate case in from of Judge Hanen is being heard today but no decision yet as far as I know so it's not finalised yet.
Hanen is staunch republican.
Saves having to pull an all nighter.
Think I'll do what I did last time and set an alarm for 3am. Dunno why, I have a sinking feeling Trump will surprise everyone. On the surface the large turnout looks to benefit Biden but it's so polarised both sides have equal motivation to get the vote out. Not that I think it matter much. Biden is the least inspiring democrat candidate in a long time. Clinton wasn't much better but at least she had the benefit of being a woman. I just despair Sanders didn't win the nomination. If Biden does win the next four years will see a masterclass of inaction and fudging.
Just listened to the bunker podcast with Brian klaas
Caught that this morning. Was a good listen.
Biden may be uninspiring but he is "safe" enough for any rational non-trumper to vote for. And, my personal prediction, president for a year before providing a soft entry for Kamala who will then show everyone how it is done in time for reelection. I hope.
Geocities is shut down soz
My money is on Trump calling it early with the heavy mob of lawyers. Every time the press say Jo has it on the bag Trump wins a little bit more of the vote.
I have no doubts about the military and federal police. I think people underestimate the local police. There might be a few nutters in the small towns, but most cops are not going to side with outright lawlessness.
On an official / managerial level no. But the police unions can be pretty nasty pieces of work
So bad apples within the police department have the backing of their union and while officers aren't instructed to behave in a violent and lawless manner, if they do.
The actual actions of the police are perhaps less of a worry than their inactions. Throughout the BLM protests of late there have been lots of incidents of 'Negligent Response' -
This week, police in Kenosha, Wisconsin, faced intense scrutiny over their response to armed white men and militia groups gathered in the city amid demonstrations by Black Lives Matter activists and others over the police shooting of Jacob Blake, a Black father of three who was left paralyzed after being shot in the back. On Wednesday, Kyle Rittenhouse, a 17-year-old who appeared to consider himself a militia member and had posted “blue lives matter” content, was arrested on suspicion of murder after the fatal shooting of two protesters.
Activists in Kenosha say police there have responded aggressively and violently to Black Lives Matter demonstrators, while doing little to stop armed white vigilantes. Supporting their claims is at least one video taken before the shooting that showed police tossing bottled water to what appeared to be armed civilians, including one who appeared to be the shooter, the AP noted: “We appreciate you being here,” an officer said on loudspeaker.
Police also reportedly let the gunman walk past them with a rifle as the crowd yelled for him to be arrested because he had shot people, according to witnesses and video reviewed by the news agency.
The Kenosha sheriff, David Beth, has said the incident was chaotic and stressful.
German told the Guardian on Wednesday: “Far-right militants are allowed to engage in violence and walk away while protesters are met with violent police actions.” This “negligent response”, he added, empowers violent groups in dangerous and potentially lethal ways: “The most violent elements within these far-right militant groups believe that their conduct is sanctioned by the government. And therefore they’re much more willing to come out and engage in acts of violence against protesters.”
Yup.
A heavily redacted version of the 2006 document had previously been published, one of a handful of documents revealing federal officials’ growing concern with white supremacists’ “historical” interest in “infiltrating law enforcement communities or recruiting law enforcement personnel.” A different internal document obtained by The Intercept in 2017 had also noted that “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers.”
https://theintercept.com/2020/09/29/police-white-supremacist-infiltration-fbi/
Many police forces in the US are heavily militarised also.
Yeah, police unions in the states basically aren't what you think they are. Kind of ironic that after over a century of villifying and crushing genuine unionisations, the right has now so completely embraced the one example that genuinely does act like an organised crime gang.
I mean seriously, check this out. An armed mob- of policemen- attack a car for no reason, smash in its windows, drag the passengers including 2 kids out, abduct the kid, beat the mother in the street then arrest her with no justification then release her without charge, don't get medical attention for the kid despite the injuries he took during the attack, and do nothing to help her recover the vehicle. All that not bad enough? How about faking up some propaganda pics using the kid?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/30/philadelphia-fop-posts-toddler/
“We are not your enemy. We are the Thin Blue Line. And WE ARE the only thing standing between Order and Anarchy.”
to do is wait for results from Florida,
Florida has voted with the eventual winner since the 70s with iirc only a couple of exceptions. Wait up for those results and then go to bed. Set the alarm for 7am or 2025 depending.
I just watched the video of that incident Northwind referred to, jeez. And they call antifa thugs.
“We are not your enemy. We are the Thin Blue Line. And WE ARE the only thing standing between Order and Anarchy.”
Very creepy doublespeak.
On the police unions etc stuff, it really is worth listening to Robert Evans’ Behind The Bastards 5 or 6 part special on the history of the police. Some truly staggering stuff in there and a good timeline to explain how they are how they are today.
Just in - Judge Hanen rejects GOP case at Texas federal court.
https://www.axios.com/texas-harris-county-drive-thru-voting-5a874c81-b927-48e7-8dcb-3bc1d5d76f6b.html
In theory the judiciary is independent from both the executive and Congress but of course each side promotes its own favourites. Sometimes it seems judges like to assert their independence - or maybe they have an eye on the future. Didn't Trump's first nominee to the Supreme Court, Kavenagh, vote with the Democrats on his first judgement?
Yes, Kavanaugh's first vote on the SC sided with the Dems argument but at the end of last week he voted against extending the deadline for counting mail-in votes in Wisconsin.
If the GOP appeal the Texas decision, we'll have a chance to see how he, Gorsuch and Barrett will vote.
The Supreme Court seems to be holding a line that this close to an election they should just let the states do what they will, as long as it's not outright illegal or unconstitutional. That might cut both ways but it gets really messy where state lawmakers and state law enforcers clash. And really really messy if/when state judges cross the line, as it's clear the republican party expects and demands they do.
So far, state judiciaries have decided the multiple cases brought by the GOP impartially - unlike the partisan SC decision regarding Wisconsin.
I was surprised that Hanen tossed the case in Harris County; given his political persuasion and reputation I expected him to find for the GOP but to say their case had no standing was good news.
Two of the three republicans who brought the case have form with multiple previous claims and there has been talk of them being either sued or barred from bringing further cases as vexatious litigants.
The trump show is on bbc2
Its going through his episode where he drew an extension onto the weather service diagram because he had it in his head that a hurricane would strike alabama
He is deluded
Assuming the polls are right and trump does lose, there's no telling how low he will go
Another GOP challenge to voting/counting fails - but an appeal is possible.
A judge has rejected a request by Republicans to stop ballot counting in Clark County, Nevada.
The Nevada Republican Party and Donald Trump’s re-election campaign had filed a lawsuit last month claiming the county violated state election laws.
The lawsuit argued that aspects of the ballot counting process were not observed closely enough, so officials should stop counting and verifying mail-in ballots.
However on Monday, District Court Judge James Wilson denied the request saying that there was no evidence of improper vote counting.
Nevada Republican Party Chairman Michael McDonald said the party has not decided if they will appeal to the state’s Supreme Court.It seems the judiciary are acting impartially and applying the law as intended; donny won't be impressed.
Well, that's just tough shit for the orange buffoon.
It seems the judiciary are acting impartially and applying the law as intended; donny won’t be impressed.
Well, that’s just tough shit for the orange buffoon.
We'll see. In Bush vs Gore in 2000 the SC ended the recount with a conservative majority without all the ballots being counted. The count in Miami Dade was ended by Republican activists trying to break into the count and threatening the counters and supervisors. This causwd them to miss the deadline.
That's the value of packing the Supreme Court before an election.
Clear election fraud in Dixville Notch. SAD!
Trump currently leading 61.5% to 38.5% (16 votes to 10).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/election-results/new-hampshire-2020/
Time to declare victory, and all subsequent ballots invalid then.
National Polls currently 51.6% Biden 43% Trumpy pants. (According the Grauniad)
But who knows and who's truthful? Are elections rig-free? Do politicians tell the truth? Would a cheesey Wotsit have stronger policies? Or more charisma?
Has anyone got any recommendations for moderate pro-Trump podcasts (or at least pro-Republican enough to overlook Trump)? I can kind of get my head round the extreme side of his supporters and why they vote for him. But the educated executive job type vote, I just can’t fathom. I’d like to hear how they rationalise or justify their positions. I suspect some of them have a single issue self interest (like being employed by Big Oil), but I can’t understand how that’s enough to ignore all the other stuff. What on Earth do they make of all the nepotism and self enrichment?
I don’t get think people change their minds by being shouted at, but I can’t debate without understanding their perspective. Help me out of my bubble!
Has anyone got any recommendations for moderate pro-Trump podcasts (or at least pro-Republican enough to overlook Trump)?
I think the never-Trump ex-Republicans are worth following.
https://podcast.thebulwark.com/
stwhannah
Full MemberHas anyone got any recommendations for moderate pro-Trump podcasts (or at least pro-Republican enough to overlook Trump)? I can kind of get my head round the extreme side of his supporters and why they vote for him. But the educated executive job type vote, I just can’t fathom. I’d like to hear how they rationalise or justify their positions. I suspect some of them have a single issue self interest (like being employed by Big Oil), but I can’t understand how that’s enough to ignore all the other stuff. What on Earth do they make of all the nepotism and self enrichment?
I don’t get think people change their minds by being shouted at, but I can’t debate without understanding their perspective. Help me out of my bubble!
You've missed out the other issue with 2 party politics there. Even many very intelligent people still have a massive "never the democrats" streak, so they have to vote Trump (or whoever) to make sure of that. I think the more amazing part is how he made it through the primaries (4 years ago) rather than the presidential election itself.
I'm lucky in that my brother move to Boston around 15 years ago - give a real insight into how it all works for normal folks
Assuming Biden wins the Dems also need to take the Senate otherwise it's going to be a shit show until at least the mid-terms
On the police unions etc stuff, it really is worth listening to Robert Evans’ Behind The Bastards 5 or 6 part special on the history of the police.
Cheers Darcy gonna have a listen now. Does it have anything about Chicago in there? I remember reading about a police chief there who was literally a crime boss.
Think it was this series of articles:
Long read but fascinating.
What on Earth do they make of all the nepotism and self enrichment?
I think the standard excuse is either 'it's fake news' or 'they're all at it, so what', or they simply don't see it because of how siloed everyone's news content is these days.
I'm just looking at some pictures of uptown Minneapolis posted up on Friendface. The whole place is completely boarded up!
Looks like they're expecting a spot of bother.
It's a good job everyone isn't armed up to the teeth with assault rifles
Oh.... erm...
I can kind of get my head round the extreme side of his supporters and why they vote for him. But the educated executive job type vote, I just can’t fathom.
The Rep/Dem debate amongst rational people is a philosophical one. Reps are in favour of small government, and some of their supporters are mistrustful of large government. And this argument is not without merit although I do not subscribe to it in the current context.
Also American government as a whole, from local to national level is somewhat different. Whilst people talk big about freedom, at the local level I personally find the huge volume of local statutes to be somewhat oppressive (on a petty scale) and people seem happy to comply and go along with them. It's simultaneously liberal and authoritarian. You can do whatever you want as long as it's within these strict lines - freedom is good, liberalism is not, apparently.
Anyway within that context, it's easier to see how people do not want the government running things. Although of course the alternative isn't any better, in my view.
2016: Hillary vs Trump
2020: Biden vs Trump.
I almost feel sorry for Americans having such shit choices. It almost makes our Boris vs Corbyn seem like good options.
Biden is a doddery old joke of a candidate
Which makes him exactly 1000000 x better than Trump, his response to coronavirus alone is enough to show the truth in that
The anti-science president needs to be got rid asap
Reps are in favour of
smallno government, and some of their supporters are mistrustful oflargeany government.
FTFY
Biden is a doddery old joke of a candidate
I think people underestimate Biden. He's been in politics a long time and was very successful at what he does, which is to be non-ideological and position himself near the center of public opinion. To ideologues, that's taken as being unprincipled. To pragmatic people, that's what a successful leader has to do in order to have any chance of getting things done. A very important part of his winning the Democratic nomination was very strong support among Black voters. Those voters seem to be quite pragmatic and non-ideological. They aren't interested in hearing about socialism and rubbish like that.
baboonz
Free Member
2016: Hillary vs Trump
2020: Biden vs Trump.I almost feel sorry for Americans having such shit choices. It almost makes our Boris vs Corbyn seem like good options.
@baboonz What made Clinton and what makes Biden bad choices?
Both have a long history of public service, have been elected to numerous public offices and have implemented legislation which made the world a better place.
What have Boris, Corbyn and Trump done that is any better? Boris seems to be out for himself and to build a legacy. He never believed in Brexit, it was just a means to an end. Corbyn was so committed to his own ideals of a pacifist, socialist utopia (I personally don't mind a lot of this) that he couldn't see that many (even in his own party) didn't want it. And as for Trump - Trump only got into this because he was repeatedly insulted by the Democrats, particularly Obama and set about destroying everything that Obama did over 8 years. He's a vain, petty, ignorant man whose only (positive...ish) legacy as president will be a reduction in America's trade deficit to China and putting three people on the Supreme Court. The latter of these only happened as they died on his watch (oh and the republicans cheated).
Which makes him exactly 1000000 x better than Trump, his response to coronavirus alone is enough to show the truth in that
I disagree, but each to their own. I was more saying in the sense of, if Trump wins, there still will be the Russia rhetoric plaguing his second term. If Biden wins, they will get a fresh batch of the same BS in the form of Chinese/Ukrainian interference through Hunter Biden.