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They aren’t interested in hearing about socialism and rubbish like that.
Perhaps that is because they, (and you maybe) havent a clue what socialism is.
Not communism, nor Marxism.
The age old British institution of the Cooperative - SOCIALISM
Trade Union anyone , oops, again Socialism.
Fairer wages, having a national health system. Dear lordy, these socialist principles of fairness, how UnBritish.
Clinton had a scandal ridden tenure-I've actually listened through the hours of the congressional hearings, had no charisma and a large portion of the US thought she was a straight up liar. She represented everything that I disliked about the political class.
Biden's age and past health problems are showing in his press interactions. He was also part of the crime bills that resulted in the present mass incarceration. Then there is the baggage of his son, which as much as some people want to pretend it doesn't exist, its a ticking time bomb.
Boris and Corbyn at least somewhat stand for something, which is more than any of the above candidates can say. Also notice how I put Trump as a shit choice too.....
Perhaps that is because they, (and you maybe) havent a clue what socialism is.
Not communism, nor Marxism.
I am quite familiar with socialism. The technical definition is that strategic industries are publicly owned (whereas full-blown communism means that all means of production are publicly owned).
People like Bernie Sanders aren't really socialists in the true sense of the word and most of the young people who believe they're socialists, aren't really. Problem is, socialism was badly discredited in the 1970s and 80s, and no serious person wants to go back to that. Most people are fairly non-ideological about things - they want public services that work, but they aren't particularly bothered about the details of how they're provided. The dogmatic right-wing anti-government rhetoric doesn't impress most people, neither does talk of reviving socialism. Moderate politicians such as Joe Biden know that. He resisted the lure of moving left to appease the Sanders faction and moderate voters have rewarded him for that.
I’m going to ignore the election until the early hours tomorrow. Tonight I shall watch the Dunny on the Wold episode of Blackadder and wish we’d voted for Colin as our leader.
Event ardent anti socialists believe in some kind of socialism. Public roads for instance. It's really just a question of degrees.
And what is the furlough etc if not socialism.
CV19 has shown how hopeless individualism/libertarianism is for coping with major issues/threats. It's no coincidence that Trump, Bolsonaro and Johnson preside over some of the worst performing countries in the world in terms of Covid.
Clinton had a scandal ridden tenure-I’ve actually listened through the hours of the congressional hearings, had no charisma and a large portion of the US thought she was a straight up liar. She represented everything that I disliked about the political class.
Biden’s age and past health problems are showing in his press interactions. He was also part of the crime bills that resulted in the present mass incarceration. Then there is the baggage of his son, which as much as some people want to pretend it doesn’t exist, its a ticking time bomb.
Boris and Corbyn at least somewhat stand for something, which is more than any of the above candidates can say. Also notice how I put Trump as a shit choice too…..
The only scandals that I'm aware of with Clinton were the Benghazi affair and the e-mail server. Both of which were whipped to dramatic effect as the Republicans knew she'd be running again in 2016. Others, including her predecessor (CR) used a private e-mail server when standing as SoS.
You say that most people thought she was a straight up liar, but Clinton won the popular vote in both 2008 (for the democratic nomination) and in 2016 against Trump. She was also re-elected to the senate with 65% of the vote. It seems that many thought she was alright. Saying that, I do somewhat agree that I didn't warm to her, but I never doubted her competence or commitment to the USA. She would've been tough on Russia and China as she was as SoS.
Remind me - what does Boris stand for?
Boris.... at least somewhat stand for something,
Himself
But the educated executive job type vote, I just can’t fathom.
It's no different to this country, a mixture of political tribalism and naked self interest. If you're an executive or in an educated profession earning decent money in the US then materially you're much better off under the Republicans whoever is president. Also many middle class americans are very political. The ones I know and have worked with are political junkies. It's literally all they talk about, and they usually have the tribal connections to match.
One other factor which is specific to Trump is that he resonates with those who have no interest in politics. He gets straight to the point, and cuts through all the academic language and obfuscation which is designed to distance people from politics. People appreciate that because they feel like they're not being patronised, and they'll forgive the racism and mysogyny because deep down they are guilty of it too to some extent.
Event ardent anti socialists believe in some kind of socialism. Public roads for instance. It’s really just a question of degrees.
most people are reasonably pragmatic, not dogmatic ideologues. The Republican Party in the U.S. has become more and more dogmatic in their free-market thinking, so many of them oppose pretty much any public role beyond police and armed forces. There's very little support among voters for such extreme free-market views, so it's dressed up as something else, but that is what drives a lot of the Republican policymaking.
The same goes for socialists who want to go back to the 1970s. The voting public just aren't interested in the ideology. Some of the policies might have support, but from a pragmatic perspective, not an ideological one. People want health care that is effective, they really don't care whether the hospital is publicly or privately owned.
Opinion piece so take it as you will :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-who-tells-dreadful-lies/2016/09/19/cd38412e-7e6a-11e6-9070-5c4905bf40dc_story.html
22% of Dems think Clinton is honest and trustworthy:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-clinton-maintains-big-lead-voters-doubt-trump-s-temperament-n631351
Event ardent anti socialists believe in some kind of socialism. Public roads for instance. It’s really just a question of degrees.
This is very much true here in the UK (for now)... we're all socialists and capitalists really... it's just that many of us are in denial about one of those. It is a bit different in the USA... take healthcare... or even the example of roads... there are people in the States, many of them, that would happily have no social healthcare, and all the roads owned by private companies and individuals... it's a weird idea of freedom where freedom is always bought and paid for by individuals, never shared via state or especially federal bodies. I suppose we made one step in that direction with the Brexit vote... all that focus on "our" money that went to "Brussels" and little attention to all that enabled on the ground here in the UK, and elsewhere. Given another decade... and it'll be all about how "our" money goes to "Westminster".
But the educated executive job type vote, I just can’t fathom
See also died-in-the-wool Conservatives who won't ever consiier voting anything else, regardless of buffoonery.
Assuming the polls are right and trump does lose, there’s no telling how low he will go
That's going to be the fun bit of watching it all unfold for me, see what tricks Angry Tinkerbell actually resorts to if he is getting royally defeated. One good thing I've read is that if he tries to prematurely try the trick of:
Time to declare victory, and all subsequent ballots invalid then.
the US media have devised a series of 'rules' to bury the news until it's all official.
It's not up to Trump to declare Victory.
I know it'll only take 1 media channel to break ranks for it to fall down but it's a sign that the media over there are going to be trying to tread carefully over calling it too early and having to back-track.
Assuming the polls are right and trump does lose, there’s no telling how low he will go
What's truly terrifying is that he has a ready 'militia' of people called Chuck or Cletus, who possess enough weaponry and ammunition to equip an army, and who firmly believe all the conspiracy theories the orange one has been feeding them for the last 5 years
People want health care that is effective, they really don’t care whether the hospital is publicly or privately owned.
No, I disagree. In the USA they DO care. Because the idea of small government has been worked into their national identity, and it's capitalised on by the right wing. That's why there was so much misinformation and outright lying during the Obamacare debates on state healthcare - huge numbers of people seem genuinely to believe that anything government run won't be in their best interests. (As if private healthcare is!) There is a huge amount of mistrust in the very concept of government.
the US media have devised a series of ‘rules’ to bury the news until it’s all official.
They don't have to 'bury' it, they can report on it but provide context. Language is everything here.
"Trump Declares Victory" is very different from
"Trump claims victory in unfinished race for presidency", or even
"Downbeaten Trump pursues 'victory' claim in laughable last-ditch propaganda attempt"
22% of Dems think Clinton is honest and trustworthy:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-clinton-maintains-big-lead-voters-doubt-trump-s-temperament-n631351
/blockquote>I wonder what that poll would look like in 2020. Clinton would look like a beacon of truth next to the president. A lot has changed (for the worse) since that poll in 2016.
I think you'll find that Americas problems existed LOOOOOOOOOG before Donald Trump came to power.
Quite a number of progs on recently to do with poverty in the US, which from the face of them suggests it all started 4 years ago.
Utter TOSH.
What made Clinton and what makes Biden bad choices?
Compared with Trump they aren't but let's face it their politics are mostly centre-right (as are most senior Dems like Pelosi and Schumer as well). It ends up with the "radical left Dems" actually not being very socialist at all whereas a lot of people want real change, as the progressive democrats like Bernie and AOC are pushing for.
Biden is the right candidate now - I doubt Bernie would have won vs Trump as the swing vote likely wouldn't have gone his way as he'd have been demonised as a communist etc.
The problem will be in 4 years (assuming Biden wins this time and the Dems control both Houses for the majority of his term). He'll either run again or Harris will get the backing of the party whereas they need someone like AOC elected to actually make a real difference (I can't see Bernie running in 2024 due to his age).
It's difficult to see, with the current voting system, AOC winning in 2024 though - it would need Biden having such a good term now that the swing vote believes Dems are best regardless of the candidate and I can't see how Biden can do that in 4 years as he's going to spend a year or two trying to sort out the current shit show and Trump legacy then it will be the mid-terms.
I get the impression that Biden was chosen by the Democrats because he was the best candidate for this election, rather than because he was a great potential president. He may be far too centrist for many Democracts but a calculation has been made that out of the options available he was the Democrat most likely to capture people who voted for Trump in 2016 and many of those to the left of Biden will vote for him anyway, as he'll at least be better than Trump.
Victory through dad dancing along to gay anthems!!!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1323534663453913093?s=20
And, yes, this is what Donald Trump himself has posted out.
the Democrat most likely to capture people who voted for Trump in 2016 and many of those to the left of Biden will vote for him anyway, as he’ll at least be better than Trump.
Agree and dissagree - I remember hearing back in the Clinton Trump election, some democrats refusing to vote at all because they didn't like Hillary - essentially handing votes to the republicans. It's a double edged sword I guess.
I suppose it rests on how many centrist republican votes Biden can snatch, whilst not dissolusioning too many left leaning democrats into abstaining.
whilst not dissolusioning too many left leaning democrats into abstaining.
What leftist is going to abstain and allow Trump back in? That would be mad.
<Insert analogy about Turkeys / Christmas (or Slugs / Salt)>
Agree and dissagree – I remember hearing back in the Clinton Trump election, some democrats refusing to vote at all because they didn’t like Hillary – essentially handing votes to the republicans. It’s a double edged sword I guess.
Bernie voters were under the impression that the DNC had screwed Bernie over to favour Hillary. I can't remember the exact details of how and why, but I do remember this was a thing in 2016.
Victory through dad dancing along to gay anthems!!!
People still underestimate how **** good he is at this stuff. That is pure attention grabbing, smile inducing, hope filled, bombastic, voter engaging gold... we just don't want to see it as that because we know what and who he is. It's all about Biden being "fragile", and "nasty" liberals being in the wings ready to take over, and in contrast you get young (ha) robust super dad dancing Trump who will rule as his own man. And how can you not get a feel good vibe from bad dancing to that tune... "YOUNG MAN, there's no need to feel down!" Never underestimate this *. Let's hope Trump loses properly this month.
What’s truly terrifying is that he has a ready ‘militia’ of people called Chuck or Cletus, who possess enough weaponry and ammunition to equip an army, and who firmly believe all the conspiracy theories the orange one has been feeding them for the last 5 years
What's more concerning is how many police and National Guard officers are also in the militias - without that I don't think they'd be an issue as they'd get flattened by the police/NG/Army but the lines seem to be pretty blurred. Even if the police in general are just sympathetic to the militias and pull a lot of post November 3rd sickies or refuse to intervene against them it's going to lead to at least isolated shit shows.
I agree Kelvin, even though the world has gone mad that is going to play very well with a lot of people I think.
People still underestimate how ******* good he is at this stuff. That is pure attention grabbing, smile inducing, hope filled, bombastic, voter engaging gold
He's extremely good at mobilizing people who already like him. Problem is, that stuff alienates everyone else (the dancing is silly fun, but the most of his act is pretty offensive). Educated women have fled and everything he does seems designed to repel them. So, yes, he is good at this stuff, but this stuff is the problem, not the solution.
Hopefully it's way too late anyway... but at this stage he only has "mobilising his people" to do... most other people have voted already, haven’t they?
Slightly concerned that the odds on Trump have been shortening slightly over the last few hours.. The best odds on him were at 2.89 yesterday, now down to 2.65.. Biden has gone from 1.45 to 1.62.. hoping this is due to the money staked, and not voting/polling data..
Let be honest, it's 2020, Trump will win as no good things are likely to happen this year!
Slightly concerned that the odds on Trump have been shortening slightly over the last few hours
Betting odds don't mean anything. National polls show Biden with a massive lead overall. Polls are never exactly right, but they would have to be about 5 points off for Trump to scrape out a narrow victory. It's not impossible for Trump to win, but he would need everything to go his way. A Biden landslide is as likely as a narrow Trump victory.
I hope Trump wins as Biden is NO good to the world.
If Biden wins then those who have voted or supported him deserve all the misery that comes with Biden. This guy is incompetent and this guy is a danger.
Resident troll will troll.
You make a strong and coherent case, as always. Full of love.
A Biden landslide is as likely as a narrow Trump victory.
Are you saying that both are likely to win? If it is landslide then how can Trump have a narrow victory?
I can predict 50-50 all day long.
You make a strong and coherent case, as always. Full of love.
Vote as you wish. If you can't make up you mind then you are lost.
Anyone up for building a new killfile? I'd be delighted to donate to a foodbank chosen by the first person to post a link to Killfile 2.
Somebody’s taken a break from masturbating over pictures of Glocks.
Let's change the subject, trolls sustain themselves on the attention garnered.
This US Election is going to be very difficult to predict but I can guess many people losing their money in bets.
Are you saying that both are likely to win? If it is landslide then how can Trump have a narrow victory?
Er yeah, er no, er yeah, er maybe.
Ah, chewkw - we've missed your insights.
Bye bye, off you go.
Remember the scene in Robocop when the former mayor takes the newly elected mayor hostage and demands a recount?
Am expecting that.
Are you saying that both are likely to win? If it is landslide then how can Trump have a narrow victory?
There are a range of possibilities, but some are more likely than others. The most likely outcome is a comfortable win for Biden. A less likely outcome is a huge landslide for Biden. Another lower probability outcome is a narrow victory for Trump.
Therefore, a Biden landslide is as likely as a narrow Trump victory, but a comfortable Biden victory is much more likely than either of those more extreme possibilities.
Slightly concerned that the odds on Trump have been shortening slightly over the last few hours.. The best odds on him were at 2.89 yesterday, now down to 2.65.. Biden has gone from 1.45 to 1.62.. hoping this is due to the money staked, and not voting/polling data..
Yeah, most Polls suggest that Trump has no chance of winning the popular vote and even considering a conservative margin of error Biden is far, far more likely to win. The last few days don't matter as much in this election, as 2/3rds of votes are already cast.
The, well mostly, non-partisan (in regards to the US anyway) UK press will want to at least create some drama to keep us watching, but if it wasn't for the 2016 shock result, they only be talking about the scale of Biden win at this point.
If/when Biden wins, and I'm not as confident as I might sound, the Democrats and Americans will have to ask themselves a couple of big, important questions.
1) Would Trump have lost if it wasn't for Covid? If Biden doesn't win a landslide, I think they've got to ask themselves if they were 'lucky' Covid came
2) If it was Covid that ended his Presidency and not all the other many, many issues, is this really the turning point for post-shame politics. 4 years isn't a long time and they won't be fighting with a sitting President, they'll be likely be trying to sell a Black, Female President who will have been VP during some hard economic and healthcare times. Will Trump come back for another go? He'll be 78, but Biden is 77 now, or will they find Trump 2?
Er yeah, er no, er yeah, er maybe.
Yes, tell me the difference between a landslide and a narrow win? How can someone predict a landslide unless there is some form of indications? If a narrow win for both then that is much more logical.
So explain to me how you predict a landslide. I predict 50-50 and tell me if I am wrong.
Ah, chewkw – we’ve missed your insights.
Bye bye, off you go.
My insight is a narrow win for one candidate which I hope is Trump, but as it is 50-50 it can go either way. Whoever wins will have a rough presidential ride for few years. That's why I say Biden is not a very bright person wanting to become President during the pandemic or possible world economic downturn. Getting Biden to turn the world economy around then good luck to you as you will find out if he is in power.
There are a range of possibilities, but some are more likely than others. The most likely outcome is a comfortable win for Biden. A less likely outcome is a huge landslide for Biden. Another lower probability outcome is a narrow victory for Trump.
Therefore, a Biden landslide is as likely as a narrow Trump victory, but a comfortable Biden victory is much more likely than either of those more extreme possibilities.
Based on your possibilities above Biden is going to win so why not just say Biden is going to win?
If there is a possibility of Trump winning then all the prediction about Biden winning does not make sense. It sounds like the possibilities of both winning or losing.
I Want Trump to win.
I do not want Biden to win.
The possibility is 50-50 regardless of polls.
Whoever wins I accept but be prepared for roller-coaster ride as the world will take few years to recover from the pandemic.