[Closed] Tube drivers - bunch of *****

Anyone got any actual background to this- is it just something that they've decided they want, or is it a Reaction to Some Other Bulls**t, or is it a historical thing?

FWIW I used to be offered double time plus a day in lieu for boxing day. But I told them to bugger off as I didn't think it was worth it. It's only money.

OK pay peanuts and get monkeys is fair enough, but pay well and get monkeys doesn't quite have the same ring to it?!!?

I'd say cramped and dirty trains is a management problem. Maybe they ought to get back to the shopfloor a bit instead of sitting on their fat arses in whatever corner office they've got.

Join your union, demand more, like these people do.

Or, just bitch about the ridiculous salaries of senior management and do nothing.
Then justify your apathy by turning on workers who [b]do[/b] demand a fairer pay deal.

Incredible.

OK pay peanuts and get monkeys is fair enough, but pay well and get monkeys doesn't quite have the same ring to it?!!?

I'm assuming you're not referring to the drivers then. Aside from their industrial action, and occasional quips over the intercom their contribution to the Underground Experience is largely unseen.

I'd start the blame at management, and work my way up to the government.

Looking at those figures the whole industry needs to have a damn good look at itself. The drivers are paid too much for the job and hours they do but the management are also too handsomely paid so I'm not sure how they can have the audacity to shout too loud about their drivers demands. The only looser in this is the travelling public as all that excessive remuneration either means inflated ticket prices or reduced infrastructure investment. Complacent industry in a virtual blackmail/monopoly position with its paying customer.

They need a mayor (or whoever has the power to act) with balls to overhaul the management and then a public with the stomach to handle the short-term hassle of mass driver walk outs inevitable whilst breaking the union stranglehold and imposing more sensible terms and conditions or bringing in automated trains.

convert

They need a mayor (or whoever has the power to act) with balls to overhaul the management

Its set up deliberatly so the Mayer or any other elected body has no say in it at all

DD agree with you there.

Let them strike, let them throw their toys out of the pram, we oop north dont care less, it has absolutely no effect on us.

He's worth every **** penny of it and funnily enough, the London Underground workers don't seem to want to get rid of him do they? If I was a London Underground worker, I'd be delighted to have Bob Crowe fighting my ground for me because he'd be getting me a decent wage in London, where it's bloody expensive to live, he'd be sticking it to my employers every time they tried to shaft me...again! And lastly, he pisses off people like you hora. That's worth a few days in lieu in itself.

Indeed 😀
I think it's worth noting before we put Bob on a pedestal, and for balance allow the Hora to shoot him off it in front of his family, that the strike in question has nothing to do with Bob and the RMT, but is ASLEF. So today's person of hate (or love) really should be Mick Whelan.

Oh!

😐

To be fair, I heard "strike" and just automatically assumed Crowe had something to do with it. 🙂

Oooooooh...

And WUNUNDRED!

(I never gets a wunundred).

Yeah me too 🙂 , but I decided to give it a quick google after Northwind asked the far too sensible question "Does anyone actually know anything about this?" 😀

Anyway, my defence is that I was only answering hora's question - and using it as an opportunity to abuse the round-shirking tightarse. And I'm sticking to that. 🙂

I've agreed to work on 4th January - getting double time and a day off in lieu. Should cover my strike day last month. I'm local authority, not a train driver though 🙂

Wisepranker - are you not on agenda for change rates? The day in lieu is one of your PH / Al days - the 7.5 hrs is the equivalent of the 60% but I am suprised you are taking it in time not pay. Never heard of that.

Yes, we're on AFC.
We get 7.5 hours as time in lieu for any PH's but no extra money.
We definitely don't get a day in lieu plus 7.5 hours. At least we never have as long as i've been working here.

I'm all for earning a fair wage for overtime. However, for me that's double-time. 4times is disgusting. Sorry that's not a 'fair' wage for a day is it?

Who ends up paying for these particular chaps? The underground users. Have you seen the current prices!

It is time all workers started to shout for better pay and better conditions and more time off instead of taking sh*&e from employers who are only interested in making a quick profit for themselves.

4times is disgusting.

Who says they're asking for quadruple time .........Transport for London ?

Transport for London also says on their website, quote :

[i]"The Aslef leadership has called the strike action despite the fact that only around 42 per cent of those balloted voted in favour of strike action."[/i]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/22065.aspx

Do you believe that too ? If it was true that only 42% voted for industrial action then tfl could go to court and have the strike declared illegal. Any further industrial action by Aslef would risk them having their assets sequestrated.

Transport for London are playing games and are engaged in a propaganda exercise. Wake up.

Aslef is simply asking for quality time off for their members, and that any cover be by volunteers who should probably be given given a "substantial incentive". Otherwise no one is likely to want to do it. If I was offered double time for Boxing Day I would tell them to stuff it.

BTW I note that the Transport for London link quotes Howard Collins, London Underground's Chief Operating Officer, who according to scu98rkr's post earns £4,000 a week. I suspect Mr Collins won't be working on Boxing Day, and will instead be stuffing his face with his family.

Maybe some people should find an alternative means of getting to the Sales on Boxing Day if they are not prepared to make it worthwhile for tube drivers - can't be that difficult surely ? 💡

.

EDIT : Actually this bit in the tlf link suggests that they are not paying any extra money for Boxing Day :

[i][b]"The agreement, which specifies that overtime is only paid for unrostered work or for work attracting a higher salary, is once again being ignored by Aslef's leaders.

The union's leadership made their claims for extra pay last year"[/i][/b]

So it would appear that Boxing Day is simply "rostered work" on which no overtime is paid. I would go on strike over that.

So it would appear that Boxing Day is simply "rostered work" on which no overtime is paid. I would go on strike over that.

If my memory serves me right they negotiated a change to their T&Cs back in the 90's that meant a very significant hike in their basic in return for working bank holidays etc as normal days. I.E. the "inconvenience" of working on bank holidays etc is built into their more than generous basic pay. I don't suppose they are planning on giving that back when they are asking for the triple time plus day in lieu are they? A bit of a case of having their cake and eating it me thinks!

when they are asking for the triple time plus day in lieu

Do you believe everything tfl tells you ?

Would you believe me if I told you that tfl's chairman got elected with only a quarter of the votes ?

'cause that's true you know.

Do you believe everything tfl tells you ?

OK, if untrue I'd imagine the union must be publicising what they want somewhere, I guess the BBC and other agencies haven't bothered to pick that up....

That's missing the point though - they negotiated a higher basic wage to work bank holidays as rostered days - they are already getting paid for working on bank holidays etc as part of their basic wage. They now want to be paid for it again. Nothing wrong with asking I guess but don't be surprised when you are told no.

OK, if untrue I'd imagine the union must be publicising what they want somewhere

Have you tried their website ?

.

That's missing the point though - they negotiated a higher basic wage to work bank holidays as rostered days - they are already getting paid for working on bank holidays etc as part of their basic wage.

Actually maybe we are now getting to the point - it would appear that in fact they are not getting any extra pay for Boxing Day. Which isn't exactly how this thread started off. It's funny what you find when you start digging beneath the bullshit.

No, but to be fair I haven't tried the tfl one either - I really don't care that much, what with having my own life n'all.

I really don't care that much,

But enough to comment ?

it would appear that in fact they are not getting any extra pay for Boxing Day.

Sorry, don't follow. I guess it's down to interpretation. You interpret it as no extra as in no extra line in the January pay packet specifically mentioning boxing day 2011. I remember the original negotiation (my then GF was in London in a shared house with a driver, so I had a mild interest at the time) and think of them as being paid a very good wage with the "extra" built in to compensate for working unsociable hours/days.

the "extra" built in to compensate for working unsociable hours/days.

So no extra for Boxing Day then.

So no extra for Boxing Day then.

That's your interpretation of them getting paid extra to work unsociable hours/days - which presumably includes Boxing Day?

Yes extra.

So you are a bit thick! I'd always thought it but been too polite to say! Read what I typed again, you'll get it eventually.

Just for you (I felt guilty) I read the aslef website - "The union says its members may need ‘substantial incentives’ to volunteer." Well, that's not really denying the tfl's claim is it!

Read what I typed again

I just did. And you say that they don't get any extra whether they work Boxing Day or not.

Thanks for pointing that out.

or.... they get paid it every year, even the years they are at home with their feet up - bonustastic!

Well hora is campaigning for them to get double time for Boxing Day - what do you think of that ?

I think it sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

Lower wages for management sounds like a good idea too - do you think that suggestion would go down well with the travelling public ?

With regard to management - read my post on page 2.

Well hora is [b]campaigning[/b]

Double time for Bank holidays - well as I said above nothing wrong in asking, but as part of a grown up pay negotiation in conjunction with annual salary and other T&Cs. Sadly as neither you or I are a member of the union or tfl negotiating team we have no idea how "grown up" they have been. Striking now doesn't seem that grown up though and won't really hurt the tfl bottom line. It won't win them any friends with the travelling public though who I'd imagine will struggle to find an awful lot of empathy with them.

Thanks to Bob Crow I've just got a 5.7% rise for 2012, If it wasn't for the union we would have got hee haw! Was a 2 year deal RPI+ 0.5% for 2011 and same for 2012 based on November RPI, considering a lot of folks are on a pay freeze I have no complaints,
PJ.

It won't win them any friends with the travelling public though .......

Is that the same travelling public who think that Aslef is asking for quadruple money, thinks that only 42% voted for strike action, and are unaware that the Chairman of Transport for London only got his job because 25% of the electorate bothered voting for him, or that TFL's top management are getting over a quarter of a million pounds a year each ?

Well I suspect you might be right there.

Although this strike isn't about 'winning friends', so let's not worry too much about it eh ?

The 42%/92% bit is strange I grant you. I'm guessing the 92% is the percentage that voted that said yes and the 42% is the worst manipulation tfl can make of the figures. I'd imagine like usual the correct figure is somewhere in the middle - neither side is adverse to dirty tricks when trying to manipulate the innumerate public.

You are wrong about the winning friends bit though. In this current economic climate there will be so much political pressure for them not to cave in from the government they will need all the support from the public they can get. Cameron is as much of a sucker for a focus group as Blair.

It occurs to me that I'm getting paid for boxing day, and also the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that. Then it's the weekend, so I'm not getting paid then but I do get paid for the day after that and the day after that. Meanwhile, I will be riding my bike and eating mince pies.

So, triple time for doing some work doesn't seem so unreasonable after all- turns out [i]I'm[/i] the c***! Who knew?

I'd imagine like usual the correct figure is somewhere in the middle - neither side is adverse to dirty tricks when trying to manipulate the innumerate public.

Aslef cannot manipulate a ballot result which it has statutory obligation to carry out. Furthermore they have an legal obligation to furnish management with all the details concerning the ballot, including results, numbers involved, work place location, spoilt ballot papers, etc. Every detail will be scrutinised by management's legal department for any discrepancies which can form the basis of a legal challenge.

Looking at that list I reckon every single person on it could just about scrape by if you halved their wages...

They probably could, but they'd just piss off to somewhere where they would make more money and you'd be left with a mix of cheapo numpties who aren't wanted anywhere else and true professionals who are willing to accept worse pay because they believe in what they do.

Bob Crow could "scrape by" on half his current salary but we already agreed he's worth it, right? 😉

All the upper management will be in Davos or St Morritz

lol!

correct - figures can't be (legally)manipulated but they (and tfl) can manipulate how the figures are presented in their press releases:-

aslef - "The union balloted its 2,200 Underground drivers and they [b]returned [/b]a 92.3% vote in favour of action. " Key word there is returned. That figure is the percentage of slips [b]returned [/b]in favour of strike action not the percentage of union members in favour of strike action.

tfl - "said only 42% [b]of drivers[/b] voted to strike." In that figure they may be including all union member that failed to vote plus all non union members as not all drivers are also union members.

As said above the true figure of union members voting for strike action will be somewhere between those two figures and I'm sure will come to light if they strike/ management goes to the high court.

But this is getting off the point.

The 42%/92% bit is strange I grant you. I'm guessing the 92% is the percentage that voted that said yes and the 42% is the worst manipulation tfl can make of the figures.

There is more than one union representing tube drivers.

Aslef only represents 60% of tube drivers. Which is a higher percentage than Londoners who voted for the Chairman of Transport for London.

Democratic mandates - don't you just love'em ?

"Director of Better Routes and Places" lol what a job title

Anyway - yeah they're overpaid and making ridiculous demands but I guess you can't really blame them. It's pretty naive to suggest if every other worker follows suit and unionises + strikes etc. we'd all be better off. At best we'd just end up paying more taxes to compensate for public spending increases, at worst our export industries would become even more uncompetitive and companies would go bust and people would end up on the dole - not much point being in a union then. I know, let's all try communism...

"Director of Better Routes and Places" lol what a job title

Anyway - yeah they're overpaid and making ridiculous demands

Management ?

Not many are suggesting striking. But unionise? Yes, for sure and collectively campaign and bargain for better pay and conditions. Saying "Ah, sure it's tough times. Suck it up" is bollocks. There's only one thing that tfl senior management is sucking up and that's money. Lots of it. Like greedy little hoovers.

Imagine [i]working class[/i] people earning upwards of £40k a year. It simply cannot be so.

Anyway - yeah they're overpaid and making ridiculous demands but I guess you can't really blame them. It's pretty naive to suggest if every other worker follows suit and unionises + strikes etc. we'd all be better off. At best we'd just end up paying more taxes to compensate for public spending increases, at worst our export industries would become even more uncompetitive and companies would go bust and people would end up on the dole - not much point being in a union then. I know, let's all try communism...