[Closed] Tube drivers - bunch of *****

I struggle with long sentences but I did read as far as

I've got no sympathy for the drivers on this particular issue, but in general support their actions- too many people here (I'm guessing largely outside the m25) feel that since they're not in a position to obtain a pay rise that everybody else should suffer.

Looking at those management salaries - some of those are absolutely obscene!

How the hell can the bosses reward themselves to such a ludicrous degree, then start bitching when the 'workers' start making demands. Though that seems absolutely indicative of things everywhere in this country at the moment.

And wasn't Boris trying to stop the Crossrail going to a PFI, and fund it centrally to reduce costs? But was slapped down by Dave? Seems to me like the whole thing is just the usual gravy train for the usual vested interests

I initially thought what a bunch of tw*ts when I read this, but looking at that list of management wages, I think f*ck the management, they have brought this on with their obscene wages, and stupid handling of all of it.
If the tube drivers can get this pay demand then good luck to them.

Looking at those management salaries - some of those are absolutely obscene!

Swerving the politics - I think since the tube strikes the other year there are more commuting clyclists in London - and more have gone all weather from fair weather.....

I now suspect Evan's and CycleSurgery are in league with the unions.......questions must be asked......

Well, to be honest I can't see how anyone warrants a salary of £850,000. Perhaps you could explain to me what he (and it'll certainly be a 'he') does that justifies that?

And this one really makes me laugh

Vernon Everitt, Managing Director, Group Marketing and Communications: £230,310

Yip... Marketing an organisation that basically has a captive market with no real competition. Yeah... sounds like a killer of a job that. How on earth are we going to get people to use this 'tube' thing? Anyone any ideas? It'll have to be some pretty revolutionary stuff!!!

Gerald Duffy, Director of Employee Relations, London Underground: £174,067

Clearly earning his keep - How many strikes in the past few years.

Gerald Duffy, Director of Employee Relations, London Underground: £174,067

Bob Crow and his £133,138 annual package in that list ?

If Bob Crow were paid the same as Gerald Duffy, would there be more strikes or fewer?

Yeah! Right on comrade! Rise up against the fascist bastards! Ruthlessly oppressing their enslaved minions. The poor sods desperately scraping by on 50 grand a year! Throw off your chains brothers!!!

How the hell can the bosses reward themselves to such a ludicrous degree, then start bitching when the 'workers' start making demands.

You've got a rubber arm, binners!

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries. Which are frankly ludicrous IMHO! What kind of example are they setting for wage restraint? How on earth can they pay themselves that and expect a strogly unionised workforce not to say "we'll have a bit of that too". Its ridiculous!

Now.... can you now explain to me why Rob Holden, the Chief Executive of Crossrail deserves a salary of £850,000 PA. Nearly two and a half grand a day FFS! 😯

I'm all ears.....

I have to admit, Ive never been a member of a union and dont agree with their tactics in this, but the management team are stupidly overpaid as I see it.
Thus the union sees clearly there is money going spare.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

Its just that some are actually paid to drive the gravy train.

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries. Which are frankly ludicrous IMHO! What kind of example are they setting for wage restraint? How on earth can they pay themselves that and expect a strogly unionised workforce not to say "we'll have a bit of that too". Its ridiculous!

An example? Think there's been a management pay freeze for a while, and a few of the top management haven't been picking up their bonuses for the last couple of years, including Hendy. See, we're all in this etc etc.

Those salaries pale in comparison to Network Rail, btw.

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries.

You're so easily swayed by emotion, binners. Nae steel, man!

Sorry Konabunny. I forgot where I was for a while. I now realise that as its STW I needed to start from an entrenched position, then repeat it more forcefully, ad nauseum, possibly with some spurious Googled links to support my position.

I did get one bit right though. It was uninformed. Its a start 😉

I now realise that as its STW I needed to start from an entrenched position, then repeat it more forcefully, ad nauseum, possibly with some spurious Googled links to support my position.

That's what I like to hear, man! Good for you!

To put the 42% claim into perspective, around 23% of the electorate voted conservative at the last election. Now, who's our prime minister?

Wage demands come down to the strength of negotiation avaialble on either side. In most industries, the employer has the upper hand. I guess that's why you lot are so jealous. I only wish that Crow was my union leader...I reckon he earns every penny of his salary.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

No I can't agree with that.

£45k for doing a vital job which regularly involves starting work long before most people have even thought of getting out of bed and finishing long after most have got home, plus working weekends, and in which thousands of people's safety is your responsibility, does not represent being "overpaid" imo.

£45k is an excellent salary which reflects the responsibility and all year round unsociable hours which come with the job. But to suggest that a tube driver working the day after Christmas Day deserves no extra money because it's no different to any Saturday or Sunday, is frankly taking the piss.

Tube drivers are well paid, but that fact should be celebrated rather than condemned. Because despite trying for the last thirty years a low wage economy does not deliver results. The reason why Britain, the Eurozone, and the US, for example, are in such dire economic straits is [i]precisely[/i] because of the constant drive for lower wages.

Since the neoliberals started setting the agenda 30 years ago wages as a percentage of GDP have fallen whilst the rich have got richer and, unsurprisingly, the poor poorer.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/05/income-inequality-growing-faster-uk ]Income inequality growing faster in UK than any other rich country, says OECD[/url]

To deal with the paradox of overproduction/underconsumption the neoliberals had a "solution"........easy credit. Capitalism needs working people not only to produce goods and services, but also to act as consumers for goods and services.

Despite their vast economic power the effect of the stinking rich on the market is negligible. Overwhelmingly, the market exists to service the needs of ordinary working people. Provide them easy credit to buy what they need/are told they need, whilst keeping their wages low, and that gives them the purchasing power which Capitalism demands of them.

Only it doesn't work ..... as the credit-fuelled boom/crises has clearly proved. Globally.

What we need is less concentration of wealth in the hands of the few and more wealth distributed among ordinary working people, ie, less inequality, not more - which is what we're getting at the present.

[url= http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/roubini43/English ]The Instability of Inequality[/url]

The tube drivers are doing their bit towards achieving this, Transport for London management isn't.

Low paid tube drivers dependent on easy credit or, living austere lives, is not the answer. A living wage and full employment is.

To repeat, join your union!

If you want to do something about every company's "obscene" pay for senior management you have to strengthen the union WHERE YOU WORK.

Or, you can continue to tut, carp and complain but remain apathetic - that'll help get us out of this mess.

Sorry to disagree with you Feefoo, but I think the only way to tackle obscene executive pay in some companies is to break the strangle hold of shareholder groups, all looking after each other.

it would be down to shareholders to stop the high pay awards.
Problem is the shareholders are wanting the companies they hold shares in to back them up in their executive pay deals.

Union power will not stop the cycle IMO

Union power will not stop the cycle IMO

Not necessarily true. Trade unions are very much involved in the battle against growing income inequality and the introduction of measures such as remuneration committees and legally binding maximum wage ratios. If an employer had to automatically increase the wages of all its employees to maintain maximum wage ratio, then they would start thinking twice about awarding excessive wages rises to senior managers.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

No.

Can we instead all agree that many other professions are [i]underpaid[/i]?

I think it's great that tube drivers are paid a decent wage and have fairly decent employment conditions. So it bloody should be. They're vitally important to the running of one of the World's leading centres of commerce and finance.

And it's especially great that things like this really make the bottoms of Little England itch. 😀

Scratch scratch scratch careful you'll make it bleed...

Honestly you lot really need a reality check. WHERE do you think the money comes from????

Relative ton their skills and ability tube drivers are OVERPAID. If you paid everyone with that level of skill and ability with that wage the country would go bankrupt!

All that is happening is ...well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom. What you fail to understand is that this is at the expense of the rest of the population, i.e. taxpayers. That extra money could have invested in better infrastructure or employed another person.

There is a case that people at the top are overpaid, that is a different issue.

People should be paid relative to their skills and abilities. In this respect tube drivers are overpaid although not quite to the same excesses as the directors and senior managers. We can't all be paid the same and I agree the ratio between senior managers and shop floor workers is too high. However even if you reduce the ratio it still would not compensate to allow equivalent workers to be paid the same as tube drivers.

Fair enough if they can get it. Just remember that in doing so it unfairly penalises the general tax paying public.

Frodo - Member

well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom. What you fail to understand

Remind us what it's got to do with Bob Crow again?

Remind us what it's got to do with Bob Crow again?

I'd laugh but as you know Northwind, I can't really. 🙂

Why not? Fear of sharting?

All that is happening is ...well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom.

I think [i]you[/i] need a reality check fella.......how is Bob Crow holding the country to ransom ? Or haven't you thought about that ? ...... "Facts" my dear boy, "facts". (apologies to Harold Macmillan)

WHERE do you think the money comes from????"

You could start by getting 2.7 million people back to work, instead of just adding to the figure, that should help.

Of course full employment would dramatically increase wages - and you don't like that do you ?

So your solution is low wages/mass unemployment. OK then, why doesn't it work ? Why is the economy in such mess ? It wasn't caused by high wages you know, I can assure you of that. In fact the cause is for the opposite reason.

.

I like your rant concerning taxpayers btw. Why doesn't the self-appointed "Taxpayers Alliance" kick up a stink about executive pay ?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15487866 ]Directors' pay rose 50% in past year, says IDS report[/url]

In fact the Taxpayers Alliance is very quick to defend greedy self-serving executives who award themselves massive pay rises. Here Matthew Sinclair, who is director of the Taxpayers Alliance, makes a touching defence of obscene executive pay rises :

[url= http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/7349793/executive-pay-dont-believe-the-headlines.thtml ]Executive pay: don't believe the headlines[/url]

Senior executives ........underpaid and overtaxed. Bless'em.

Why not? Fear of sharting?

I sort of jumped on the Crowe bandwagon myself...but in his defence and a golden opportunity to abuse hora. Mind you, afterwards somebody said I was "sounding suspiciously like Elfin" which deflated me quite a bit. 😀

deadlydarcy - Member

I'd laugh but as you know Northwind, I can't really.

Never worry, that was 3 pages ago, everyone's forgotten. Plus most people think you were right. So fill yer boots

Because despite trying for the last thirty years a low wage economy does not deliver results

Is that why China is doing so well, and we can't compete with them?

aracer - Member

Is that why China is doing so well, and we can't compete with them?

Course, our economy is in every other way exactly the same as China's, making this an excellent comparison.

Is that why China is doing so well, and we can't compete with them?

Nice playing stupid/devil's advocate/let's pick an argument with the leftie/whatever it is you're trying to do aracer.

China is doing "well" because it is selling to more affluent markets. If it had relied solely on its own internal market it would not have progressed as it has. Its recent huge growth in manufacturing has not primarily occurred because of domestic consumer consumption. And selling to "poor" countries would not have got them very far. They need consumers with large amounts of disposable income, just like we do.

And "doing well" as you very well know, is extremely relative. China's GDP per capita is way below ours - and that of most other countries of the world.

None of which will last of course. China is now developing its own internal market, and not least because it has seen in the last few years the dangers of over reliance on exports (as well as needing to address the pressing problem of lopsided development) There will of course need to be substantial increases in wages.

Eventually China, like Japan before it, will no longer be the principle global source of cheap manufactured goods, and global capitalism will seek new labour forces to exploit - such as India. If indeed global capitalism manages to pull it off and survive its second worse crises ever - the jury's still out on that as we have entered uncharted waters.

But the contradictions of capitalism and the paradox of overproduction and underconsumption will not go away. As long as it exists, capitalism will continue to exploit workers by demanding maximum productivity for minimum remuneration, after all it makes economic sense, does it not ? And at the same time expect them to have the means to purchase goods and services so it can exploit them as consumers too, after all consumers are vital to capitalism, are they not ?

........[i]boom and bust, boom and bust, big boom and bust, boom and bust, bigger boom and bust......[/i]

In hundreds of years time they will read about our epoch in their history books with incredulity.

DLR works fine without a driver

Oh dear. Another one who does not in any way fully understand how the DLR works... (bit of advice: find out what a Passenger Service Agent does...)

I sort of jumped on the Crowe bandwagon myself...but in his defence and a golden opportunity to abuse hora.

"And lastly, he pisses off people like you hora. That's worth a few days in lieu in itself."

Wonderful. This pleases me i[i]mmensely[/i]. 😀

Mind you, afterwards somebody said I was "sounding suspiciously like Elfin" which deflated me quite a bit.

A great compliment, surely?

I like these threads. Loads of initial knee-jerking and outrage, then some actual facts and a bit of objectivness, then some mumbling and lame attempts to sidetrack the discussion to hide the initial embarrasment of being pwned, then it should run out of steam unless someone comes up with something not directly related but similar to spark off a whole new argument. 😆

To repeat, join your union! If you want to do something about every company's "obscene" pay for senior management you have to strengthen the union WHERE YOU WORK.

TUs will never "fix" senior management pay because a) it's none of their business and b) they're only going to be interested in how much their members get paid. This bleating about manager pay is purely ancillary to their real interest which is (fair enough) what's in it for them.

the only way to tackle obscene executive pay in some companies is to break the strangle hold of shareholder groups, all looking after each other. it would be down to shareholders to stop the high pay awards. Problem is the shareholders are wanting the companies they hold shares in to back them up in their executive pay deals.

Huh? If the shareholders are happy with management pay, then what's the problem? It's the shareholders that lose out as a result, not anyone else.

TUs will never "fix" senior management pay because a) it's none of their business and b) they're only going to be interested in how much their members get paid.

Not true. It is their business. And they are interested.

[url= http://unisonactive.blogspot.com/2010/11/compass-launches-commission-on.html ]Compass Launches Commission on Executive Pay?[/url]

[url= http://highpaycommission.co.uk/?p=636&preview=true ]UNISON submission to the High Pay Commission[/url]