[Closed] Top Copper is a lying shyster- should he be jailed?

i bet they really come down hard on him.

retired on full pension, something like that.

He is the manager , how would anyone expect him to know whats happening with his minions

Would it depend on why the false information was given?

Was the lie to protect an ongoing investigation or to protect Officers identities etc?

He would have been under oath.

Allegations are that undercover officers were causing deliberate unrest.

Ill wait till I read something a little more substantial than a few paragraphs on the beeb before coming to any conclusion.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. I forsee in my crystal ball 'early retirement due to medical grounds on a full pension'

If we jailed everyone who lied there would be no room in prisons for murders and rapists but on the up side parliament would be empty

I think it's highly likely agents provocateurs were used. It would be in the police's interests long-term, if it was considered that the risk of violence could lead to future demonstrations being banned or prevented. So if a demo was going a bit too peacefully, then a couple of undercover coppers could stir things up
deliberately, get things kicking off nicely, which would then necessitate the need for [s]police brutality[/s] appropriate force to be used. Adds fuel to the argument against allowing demonstrations.

Ill wait till I read something a little more substantial than a few paragraphs on the beeb before coming to any conclusion.

I say sod waiting for any further and more in-depth information; let's use the scant amount of sensationalist reporting so far, to get our knees-a-jerking and justify a lynching.

Can't beat a good lynching. String 'em up! 🙂

Hahahaha!

He! You like that one, innit Kaesae? 😀

[Edited - can't be bothered to get into this debate]

nickf+1.

Enforcing a protest ban requires policing, so I don't see how it helps reduce police workload. Protests turning violent might help some politicians though...

The use of agents provocateurs, as has been done throughout history, serves to help sway public opinion against demonstrations/ers, by creating a situation which is violent and which threatens public safety. This then discredits the protests, and helps dissuade peaceful protestors from attending. I've heard many people say they think twice about going to demos, as they are afraid that things may turn violent. At the recent student demonstrations, the headlines were all about the violence, and very little about the reasons for the demonstrations.

I've been at demos where everything's been going along nice and peacefully, then seen lines of coppers in standard clothing being replaced by riot thugs, just before small groups of 'anarchists' have turned up and things have kicked off. All seemed to be almost orchestrated. This has happened on several occasions. i really don't think the police are clairvoyant...

I think it's actually more useful to think that this is in fact happening, than to deny any possibility, because if it's actually true, then people should be aware of this tactic.

Can't trust the police. Not when they are being used as a political tool.

Ill wait till I read something a little more substantial than a few paragraphs on the beeb before coming to any conclusion.

I say sod waiting for any further and more in-depth information; let's use the scant amount of sensationalist reporting so far, to get our knees-a-jerking and justify a lynching.
Can't beat a good lynching. String 'em up!

+1

I say sod waiting for any further and more in-depth information; let's use the scant amount of sensationalist reporting so far, to get our knees-a-jerking and justify a lynching.
Can't beat a good lynching. String 'em up!

*s****s*

If this is true then it really is very serious indeed. He has not misled the press - a policeman who is answerable to our elected representatives has lied to them on a important point

Democracy only functions if the police ultimately are answerable to the government.

IMO its on a par with perjury - it attacks the foundations of the state.

Democracy only functions if the police ultimately are answerable to the [s]government[/s] People.

FTFY. 🙂

Actually I should have said parliament - who act as our representatives. I definitely do not want directly elece4ted police chiefs who will be swayed by public opinion. I want fair impartial police chiefs - but they must be answerable to parliament

I think it's actually more useful to think that this is in fact happening, than to deny any possibility, because [b]if[/b] it's actually true, then people should be aware of this tactic.

I find it useful to wear a tinfoil helmet, because if the Martians attack, it'll protect me. It's better to think this way just in case it happens, which I really think it will. There's no point denying the possibility, because it really could happen.

Can't trust the politicians - it's in their interests to ensure we don't know about it.

Ah come on, the police aren't exactly the lily-white institution free from corruption and fault that they'd like people to think they are. Guilty of lying, falsifying statements, fabricating evidence, murder, rape, drug-dealing, all sorts. I've seen the local plods up to all kind of dodginess. I've seen off-duty coppers snorting cocaine. Amongst other things. Therefore I don't imagine the top brass are immune from being human beings either, and know that people are fallible, no matter what office they hold.

I don't put nuffink past no-one. I keep my mind open to things which are in fact more than likely.

There's no evidence of Martians. There's enough evidence of police dodginess.

lying shyster eh?

I know one of those.

Can't trust the police. Not when they are being used as a political tool.

must be pain having the politians change every few years, and having a spectrum of them on the police authorities

or is it "the establishment" you are fighting?

remember, just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you 😉

TandemJeremy - Member
Actually I should have said parliament - who act as our representatives. I definitely do not want directly elece4ted police chiefs who will be swayed by public opinion. I want fair impartial police chiefs - but they must be answerable to parliament

I'm surprised by your view, I would have thought you were ideally qualified for the role 😉

must be pain having the politians change every few years, and having a spectrum of them on the police authorities

Yeah whatever mate. If you don't know who's [i]really[/i] pulling your strings, then more fool you.

I've been at demos where everything's been going along nice and peacefully, then seen lines of coppers in standard clothing being replaced by riot thugs, just before small groups of 'anarchists' have turned up and things have kicked off. All seemed to be almost orchestrated. This has happened on several occasions. i really don't think the police are clairvoyant...

I thought is was to do with intelligence from special branch, cctv, helicopters and the info from spotters deployed all over the area including within the crowd...

unless you are in a very small demo how do you expect to see everything?

You sure you aren't a little paranoid elf? You're right we are all capable of acts of shystiness but you do need to ave a little bit of faith..

Yeah whatever mate. If you don't know who's really pulling your strings, then more fool you.

I thoughty it was either that rather bland Belgian or the Yanks? care to illuminate me?

intelligence from special branch

An oxymoron, surely? 😕

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's Babylon, then, BnD?

One of your superiors is a lying shyster who is a danger to society. Gonna defend him?

Her Maj's Babylon

Sorry, probbly shouldn't say that, as it sounds a bit rude...

[i]Her Maj's 5-0![/i] 🙂

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's babylon, then, BnD?

it's already in the public domain that police/ and I have no doubt other agencies have placed people within organisations and they have engaged in activities that would fit under the that label

however if you want me to believe that they have "ruck squads" systematically deployed to get demo's to kick -off I think you need to lend me the tin foil hat first.

there are that many "observers" at every demo that this tactic would be sussed very soon, never mind keeping it secret within the organisation, never mind funding it etc Any senior policemen would know it would be career and probably organisation suicide.

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's babylon, then, BnD?

Show some evidence, eh? Otherwise you come across as being just a tad shouty and more than a little biased. As for 'Babylon' ...just unnecessary.

I have no evidence - you could be right for all I know - but from personal experience of an extremely senior officer (not much of a sample, but he's the only one I know), there's a lot to respect in the upper echelons of the police. The one I know is utterly uncorruptible, and has a healthy cynicism for all politicians. The chance of this officer having anything to do with the sorts of things you allege is nil.

OK, it's a sample of one, and I accept that there may well be rotten apples in the police. What I don't accept is that the Met is rotten to the core.

So, are you denying that agents provocateurs are being employed by Her Maj's Babylon, then, BnD?

how much are they paying you? Do you get a P60 is is it just cash?

I am certain there are serious issues in the met which lead them to be very heavy handed at demos. Its all about perceptions I guess but they believe there will be trouble and so use very aggressive tactics - which ensures that there is trouble - self fufilling prophecy.

It really does need sorting out and there is plenty of previous and evidence of agent provocateurs in other places - such as the recently unmasked officer in the green protests - he has admitted being an agent provocateur. instigating and driving forward demos

Edit - I am sure that they believe that they are doing the right thing - its just that their view of what is right is distorted - because there is trouble at demos in the past they assume there will be in the future so will use these aggressive tactics which create trouble / exacerbate it

I need more information as it depends on why he lied. Was it to protect officers, becuase he did not know, because they provoked trouble* or for another nefarious or innocent reason ?
Once I have all this information to hand I will reach [s]and informed conclusion[/s] for the pitchfork

*does Elfin really think it would have been a peacful protest without these coppers in the crowd surely no one is that naive?

I just don't buy it that the police delibrately caused the trouble, it just doesn't make sense, by far and away the overwhelming majority of police officers I'm guessing would rather not stand in a line being pushed and shoved, having things thrown at them, and always being at risk of being dragged into the crowd and set upon. They'd much rather stand there for a bit, listen to some students sing songs and shout, have a cup of tea, then go home I'd imagine.

Junkyard - the reasons for him lying are immaterial - he cannot lie to parliament.

I am certain there are serious issues in the met which lead them to be very heavy handed at demos. Its all about perceptions I guess but they believe there will be trouble and so use very aggressive tactics - which ensures that there is trouble - self fufilling prophecy.

I agree, they should stop using 300 as a training film for a start (unfortunately they probably really do have clips in their training presentations)

Andi - its not that they deliberately cause trouble IMO - its that they adopt tactics that create trouble because they believe there will be trouble - and then the ensuing trouble justifies ( to them) the tactics used.

That's more believable TJ, I'm sure that in most cases the tactics used and the resources are over the top. Problem is, I suppose, they have to be prepared for the worst possible scenario, if you're not, then you end up with scenes like Millbank Tower.

But Elfin's suggestions they cause the trouble is a bit too far fetched for me. Same with the accusations that that police van was left there just to get trashed on purpose, despite the fact it was full of expensive kit and officer's personal possessions.

it will be interesting to see if this goes anywhere

it seems that the undercover coppers they had in the grren protest movement were way out of control of their seniors wouldnt surprise me that the g20 coppers also [s]blatantly broke and ignored[/s] bent the rules

So Elfin if you saw off duty officers doing cocaine, have you reported them to the police? did you make any efforts to get them investigated?

I doubt very much that his lying was part of a coverup for squads of agents provocateurs or some other conspiracy theory. I expect it was down to a much more common human failing.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (Hanlon's razor)

I, like the MPs, await further details of his stupidity.

*does Elfin really think it would have been a peacful protest without these coppers in the crowd surely no one is that naive?

Well obviously you are naive enough to believe that police officers who infiltrate and act as agent provocateurs don't encourage illegal acts.

And you have a short memory too.......less than a couple of weeks ago :

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/14/mark-kennedy-eu-summit-protest ]Mark Kennedy 'took part in attack on Irish police officers at EU summit'[/url]

Mark Stone/Kennedy was given a quarter of a million pounds a year by the police to organise and encourage illegal activities, and we only know about him because his cover was blown.

Having said that, I think in this case Elfin is probably exaggerating the role of the police in encouraging violence. What appears not to be in doubt though, is that a very senior police officer lied to those he was responsible to. If proven, he should face a prison sentence.