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boomerlives
Except for the fact that, without a constitutional monarchy, we would have President Truss.
Or we could have a ceremonial president, like several other countries do. Or we could have a president with properly defined powers, rather than our Prime Minister, whose powers seem to amount to "whatever parliament lets them get away with".
i think we can safely say that from today’s display it is far from being over.
The tens of thousands lining the route and the roughly 750000 who trouped past the coffin may agree, but they are but a relatively small percentage of the population and a self selected one at that. Nowhere in view on the telly are those who are indifferent or positively against the monarchy( which is probably appropriate today for reasons of taste) so it would be wrong to extrapolate for the whole country.
have you been outside today ?
quieter that xmas day has ever been.
i reckon there a good few million folk sat at home watching the whole event.
we don’t have a constitution
Of course the UK has a constitution. All countries have a set of rules by which they are governed and organised. You can't make it up as you go along.
It’s 3.30 and still going… I thought it was meant to be over by 12? Had to get back to work as only so much marching music I can take in one day even though I’ve tried to watch it if nothing else as a significant piece of history for the UK.
i reckon there a good few million folk sat at home watching the whole event
That’s probably true, but how many of those are watching because of FOMO or because they like the spectacle, not necessarily committed monarchists. Also there are no shops, schools or other leisure facilities open so it’s not surprising that it’s quiet
have you been outside today ?
quieter that xmas day has ever been.
East Croydon train station wasn't quiet at midday today, even the coffee shop on platforms 5 and 6 was open. There are no trains at all on Xmas day.
Although they did announce on the tannoy a 2 minute silence for Her Majesty at 11.55, no idea why 11.55.
I was surprised how some people ignored it. One bloke very disrespectfully even ordered a coffee during the two minute silence. Mind you he did look as if he might be foreign.
Not a monarchist, but enjoying the processions and spectacle in between unpacking from a weekend away and sorting stuff out.
Roads were very quiet on the way home , no cafes open for brekky, but saw a good few out cycling and walking.
Who is the really tall bloke in front of the hearse?
i reckon there a good few million folk sat at home watching the whole event.
Almost everything is closed. There are more businesses closed today than on a normal Xmas day.
I know several people who are having funeral parties, with cream teas, etc, and one of my daughters was complaining that we aren't having a roast today like a few of her friends' families. (Clotted cream has sold out in most shops around here, believe it or not.) One party that I know of started with the prosecco mid-morning, to show due respect to Her Maj by getting bladdered in front of the TV.
I'll be riding home along the beach in a short while - it will be interesting to see how busy it is. Thinking about it, will my riding buddies be in the pub on the way home? They were all out in the woods this afternoon. 😀
I was surprised how some people ignored it. One bloke very disrespectfully even ordered a coffee during the two minute silence.
My larger than life uncle was diagnosed with cancer. On arriving at the cancer unit he piped up how miserable everyone in the waiting room was and as usual tried to cheer everyone up.
It was 11am November 11th.
BBC World estimate that up to 4 billion people have watched the funeral or will watch its highlights, broadcast by all networks. That is half world's population.
I'm not quite sure how they arrive at that figure but there's no doubt its major news world wide. My brother in the US says all the American networks are giving it prominent and extended coverage. There are 195 world leaders present. I don't know if it's true but I've seen a quote saying that's the largest gathering of world leaders in one place ever.
I’ve seen a quote saying that’s the largest ever gathering of world leaders in one place ever.
Just as well it didn't happen during lockdown. Typical of Her Majesty - she unselfishly dies at the right time to accommodate everyone. There will never be another.
Lots of old men in uniform. I'd guess this is the most senior (old) senior officers have been (not including family obviously) lots of stiff legged "marching".
Also are the (royal) cars geared differently to a normal car. They do a lot of walking pace driving.
The footage of the guy who grabbed the Royal standard from the coffin cannot be found anywhere even though there was multiple cameras in Westminster Hall.
I must say that today is the first time I've felt even slightly patriotic since June 2016.
Just back from Balmaha (east shore of Loch Lomond) - naively thought it would be quiet, with everyone at home watching the funeral. It was rammed with people - coffee shop doing a roaring trade, with a queue about 20 long when I passed it. Clearly a big chunk of Scotland decided to express it’s collective grief by getting the SUP out!
have you been outside today ?
quieter that xmas day has ever been.
It's the same here in Glasgow, though its probably due to the country having to shut down for reasons i think are a bit extreme. Maybe in London they would close, but I cant see why the rest of the country, including doctors surgeries need to shut also.
I spent 15 mins on the phone trying to get through for a repeat prescription only to give up and cycle to the surgery, where i found it closed.
Then went off to an Asda mega store only to find that shut too.
Roads were pretty empty, which admittedly made riding on them safe. But im not sure many in Glasgow could be arsed watching the service. Probably spend the free holiday time doing things far more important.
cannot be found anywhere even though there was multiple cameras in Westminster Hall.
That is because the authorities have apparently said that they have no intention of making the footage public. Which is perfectly reasonable and understandable imo.
I don't know what his motive was but why should he deserve any more publicity?
I have seen a clip of him being arrested though. Someone was obviously able to film it during the commotion despite the ban on filming and photography.
Who is the really tall bloke in front of the hearse
I noticed that in between bike fettling, couldn't work out how Robert Pershing Wadlow got invited.
so that's what Ken MacKenzie's up to now. Preposterous.
I reckon all this slow marching for miles is designed mainly so Charles and the rest of them have time for their 3 course luncheon in between ceremonies.
With the exception of the queen, the entire funeral party and all guests drove down the end of our road. Paid my respects.
gobuchul
Free MemberSo why does The Prince of Nonces still wear his?
We were told he was stepping down from Royal duties?
Andrew is an honorary vice admiral so he's technically a serving serviceman. Bullshit obviously, but that's why.
I've reached my viewing limit and headed to the bar, where it's also on TV 😂.
With the exception of the queen
She wasn't in the coffin?
She wasn’t in the coffin?
what she’s not dead ?
Nah. Coffin came via Staines. Including the spare hearse (someone could have had the worst day at work). Everyone else came in via the back door. Probably see them leaving in an hour or so. This is what a posh bus looks like if you’re interested. The royal family followed behind. Then a few stragglers (SPA 1 N is a great plate isn’t it?)
have you been outside today ?
quieter that xmas day has ever been.
9am I would agree - not a soul was stirring.
It was pretty busy up the hills today, and queues of traffic on the A84/A82.
Tyndrum was hoaching with folk - we must have missed the memo about Glasgow decamping there for the day.
You can knock the monarchy, government etc but you cannot deny that we really are very good at doing these big state occasions.
Also are the (royal) cars geared differently to a normal car. They do a lot of walking pace driving.
No different to a regular hearse, shortened ratio by using a different differential. Banger racers love them as they're tough, have big engines and go like stink up to about 40.
Well, I think I watched about 7 hours of that, in the background at least, missing just a few minutes for comfort breaks but kept up while cycling. The reading of her titles while the coffin descended was very moving, as was the lone piper moving off down the corridor. Job done. I suppose a lot of Guardsmen, Naval Ratings and RAF bods will be getting very pissed tonight.
have you been outside today ?
quieter that xmas day has ever been.
I've been out on my bike and I saw far more riders than usual.
Also walked the dogs, and I reckon there were more people doing the same and kids playing in parks while parents chatted than an average Sunday.
coffee shop doing a roaring trade, with a queue about 20 long
20 long? That's not a queue! In that there London the queue for the queue for the queue for the queue is longer than that.
Who is the really tall bloke in front of the hearse?
You plonker.
you cannot deny that we really are very good at doing these big state occasions.
True. But it's been planned in precise details for years if not decades. And not just the state funeral but everything associated with the death of the monarch such as TV programmes and scheduling.
No doubt work has already started on Charles III's state funeral and TV obituaries.
No different to a regular hearse
That was the worst thing about the whole day. It should have been a Rolls or Bentley not a bloody Jag
To be fair to the royals I bet they are fed up of all this stuff over the last week or so. I will nod my head at 8pm to them and queenie, that’s the proper funeral
No doubt work has already started on Charles III’s state funeral and TV obituaries.
Isn't there a coronation to get through first?
They can't risk being unprepared if he dies before the coronation.
I've studiously tried to avoid most of the coverage up until today. I particularly couldn't stand all the sycophantic interviews and stuff.
This morning I had a very nice relaxed ride around Swinley (Crown Estate land near Windsor if you aren't familiar with it).
After getting home, turned TV on and the Long Walk procession was just starting. I ended up watching all of that and the service in St George's chapel. I found it mightily impressive, despite my cynicism... as others have said, we can certainly do this sort of thing.
I've always liked Windsor Castle although less so since they started charging. I used to occasionally have to visit the private area for work when the "Family" moved in from Buck House. I watched Montgomery's funeral in Windsor (back in the day) ... that was impressive but nothing on this scale.
so that’s what Ken MacKenzie’s up to now. Preposterous.
Now then, now then!
Except for the fact that, without a constitutional monarchy, we would have President Truss.
We dont need a head of state separate to the head of the government
There is simpky no need for one.
All reasons for one are made up. The USA has a president who is also the head of tbe government ie both roles one person.
The people should be sovereign as in the us and allegence can be sworn to anything representing them
Feel a bit quiet today with the end of Queen Elizabeth II era. It is just silence.
Don’t worry Chewk, King Charles will do a good job.
The people should be sovereign as in the us and allegence can be sworn to anything representing them
I'm really not sure how the people in the US being sovereign is giving them any advantage over us.
I've sworn allegiance to the Queen at various points in my 53 years, and I've always taken it to be an oath to the country and/or people rather than to the individual person currently on the throne.
I suspect a lot pragmatic folk who don't overthink these things take the same view.
The people should be sovereign as in the us and allegence can be sworn to anything representing them
I totally agree. And I also agree that in an advanced democracy there is no obvious need for a head of state. A democratic self-governing society has no need for a single person to benevolently watch over it as a father would a child.
However we are still a very long way from an advanced democratic society imo and priorities for me dictate that abolition of the monarchy isn't very high up on the things to do list.
The benefits of abolition of the monarchy would be insignificant imo and have no bearing on the lives of most people. Furthermore support for the monarchy currently remains overwhelming, better to focus on what is achievable and could actually be winnable policies for the next general election.
EG abolition of the House of Lords and its replacement by a chamber which is fully democratic representing the Nations and Regions of the UK through proportional representation, and in which minorities have significant representation. Also bringing into democratic control vital industries and the commanding heights of the economy.
If you really believe in a genuine shift in political and economic power that should be your aims imo. The monarchy would not and could not stand in the way of such developments, and if it did it would be making the case of abolition itself without much help.
Talk of the abolition of the monarchy now is a pointless unachievable distraction imo.
Edit : Sorry TJ I have just realised that when said "us" you meant "US". I thought you meant "us the people". The US is a pisspoor example of democracy. I really wouldn't hold it up as something that we should emulate.
abolition of the House of Lords and its replacement by a chamber which is fully democratic representing the Nations and Regions of the UK through proportional representation
Steady. There is a lot of expertise in the Lords. Many of whom might not be persuaded to seek public office via an electoral system. I wouldn’t throw out the entire system. I don’t agree with hereditary peers, nor Boris’ gift peers. But… How many scientists are there in the House of Commons? How many in the Lords?
Historic change tends to happen on historic timescales. We’ll see change.
Yeah PR should be the priority. Missed the whole lot today 👌
Bloody bagpipers. They always seem to encroach on such occasions where everyone is too polite or grief-stricken to tell them to **** off.
You can knock the monarchy, government etc but you cannot deny that we really are very good at doing these big state occasions.
Best in the world!
Obviously, I’ve never watched the funeral procession or coronation of a foreign monarch, but stands to reason that we do this the best!
Also agree with above post. PR in the commons and slim down the lords might be the way to go.
Bloody bagpipers. They always seem to encroach on such occasions where everyone is too polite or grief-stricken to tell them to **** off.
Curiously, there was one in a park on my ride home earlier. South Wales, home of the half dressed bagpiper lurking in the bushes!
but stands to reason that we do this the best!
What I find odd (it may be too soon to say this) is how little has been updated since the funeral of Elizabeth’s father. Why still such a focus on the military? Is that what we are still first and foremost? A military power? Are we stuck as a country in the immediate post war period? Obviously not, but nothing that has happened in the last week would signify that we have moved on at all.
Using the USA merely as an example of why you do not need a head of government and a head of state as separate people.
Earlier in this thread i was told a head of state was essential but no one can come up eith any convincing reason.
Personally I see no need for a second chamber either given the proviso of a properly democratic unicameral chambet of course. Our pseudo democracy / parliament is hugely bloated with appraching 2000 members.
How many scientists are there in the House of Commons? How many in the Lords?
I have no idea. The make-up of the House of Lords is considerably less important than the make-up of the House of Commons because the Lords has very limited power in comparison to the Commons. You could have a Lord representing stamp collectors for all the difference it would make.
Scientists can advise governments but it is not for them to make decisions which need to be made by governments.
IMO a second chamber is needed to scrutinise legislation from the first chamber and effectively challenge anything which is seriously detrimental to nations, regions, and minorities. It needs to have some teeth however otherwise it becomes a completely pointless exercise.
You can ditch the marching bands , give me a lone piper any day.
Scientists can advise governments but it is not for them to make decisions which need to be made by governments.
Why can’t scientists be in government? They have been before. Why is that not the case now? Why so few MPs with a scientific background?
[ this all feels like an interesting topic for a separate thread to me ]
Because we've made "politician" into a career path and skillset and it doesn't match up well with "scientist", mostly. I know a bunch of scientists and engineers that dabble in politics, but only a couple would have the slightest chance as an MP/MSP and all but one of those wouldn't want the job. And the one who would, and does, is an absolute ringpiece.
jambourgie
Free Member
Bloody bagpipers. They always seem to encroach on such occasions where everyone is too polite or grief-stricken to tell them to **** off
Did you get upset by the Queens personal bagpiper?
Why still such a focus on the military?
Because the military has inextricable links to the crown that predate her father.
For example, the Grenadier Guards who have been at the forefront of the recent events draw their lineage back to a group of soldiers who stayed loyal to the crown and were formed to protect the exiled Charles II.
As such they don't have to stand or even deliver the loyal toast if they choose, as their loyalty to the crown is deemed unquestionable.
There are so many things that link the military and the crown throughout history. And both the crown and military are custodians of those traditions. Even if we had a purely ceremonial monarch, many of those would still exist.
give me a lone piper any day
🤣
I’m still surprised that nothing* (correct me if I’m wrong) has been changed after 70 years. I’m not suggesting no military contingent at all (I’ve spoken already about by own father’s military role in a past funeral procession), just that seemingly nothing has been changed. As if the UK is preserved in aspic. What about other public servants? This felt an entirely suitable send off for a monarch in the period immediately after the Second World War. It didn’t feel (to me) as it has anything has moved on in all that time. The full on military focus feels like an anachronism.
[ * thought of an example, Anne would probably not have had the role she had this week if it was the 1950s ]
Is it safe to turn on the telly or radio yet?
You could have a Lord representing stamp collectors for all the difference it would make.
Or one who specialises in reproduction ethics. The second chamber is to scrutinise. The expertise in the second chamber does that. One of these has a Nobel prize, for example https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/193/science-and-technology-committee-lords/membership/
There are, however a lot of hangers on.
BTW Therese Coffey has a PhD from UCL in Chemistry, before she went into company finance and then politics.
Bloody bagpipers. They always seem to encroach on such occasions where everyone is too polite or grief-stricken to tell them to **** off.
This is the best I’ve heard this put! The bagpipes are the most god awful noise! Wouldn’t be quite so bad without that noise from the bag sounding like the last continuous breath of a dying cat. The bugles and trumpeters however were outstanding!
Avoided most of it between DIY and bike faffage. Echo what others have said though, great send off regardless wether your a royalist or not, The lone bagpiper walking down the corridor was very poignant.
Emley Moor Mast is lit up purple.
(Not a euphemism)
RM.
Riding this morning, got home mid afternoon. But caught up on it this afternoon. As a country we do put on a good show, and I believe that is a significant part of our national identity on the international stage, so am quite willing to accept the last weeks worth of goings on as the equivalent of the “back stage view” of the show that the rear of the world are seeing. Can only be good for the UK. What comes in the future with Charles and then William I don’t know - I fear that we will see the “decline of the brand” but fingers crossed.
BTW Therese Coffey has a PhD from UCL in Chemistry, before she went into company finance and then politics.
She's gonna make a great Deputy Prime Minister and Secretary of State for Health 😉
Liam Fox is another great example!
There is no reason why scientists shouldn't have an input. However imo it is not relevant to whether we should keep some arcane undemocratic relic from the pre-industrial revolution feudal days, whose members we call "lords" and "baroness" ffs, and which most other advanced countries seem to have managed to move on from.
There is a lot more science & technology horsepower in the Lords than in the Commons. The current Commons S&T Committee has one chemist, one biologist and one physicist among its ten members. I've dealt with both, and they are quite different. Don't assume though, because the Commons committee has fewer scientists and engineers in its membership, that it is not a seriously challenging experience.
This felt an entirely suitable send off for a monarch in the period immediately after the Second World War. It didn’t feel (to me) as it has anything has moved on in all that time. The full on military focus feels like an anachronism.
I don't understand the idea that the military is/was only associated with WW2? There have only been a handful of years since WW2 where there haven't been British military operational deaths somewhere - Over 7000 in total. The Queen, her three sons and two Grandsons have all served in some capacity, including during two post WW2 armed conflicts. Her recently deceased husband was a decorated wartime naval officer. Many of the Royals, including Anne are honorary colonels in chief of corps and regiments, many of which have 'Royal' in their name. All british military personnel swear an oath of allegiance to the monarch who is the commander in chief. The royals are so inextricably linked with the military it would be very odd if they weren't a large part of the funeral would it not? Nothing to do with WW2 IMO.
As a country we do put on a good show, and I believe that is a significant part of our national identity on the international stage…... Can only be good for the UK.
So we’ll be able to trade deals based on loads of military marching in time?
I hear Russia & North Korea do impressive parades- and that’s every year.
Why are there always the obligatory ignorant prats that like to shit on bagpipes? What's up, not enough bells and hankies?
Why still such a focus on the military?
I suppose the massed ranks and bands of supermarket workers, warehouse staff (of which I am one), and various sports cheerleaders would have put on an equivalent show/tribute had they been asked last Thursday.
The military stuff was about displays of power. Now its just more bread and circuses
like to shit on bagpipes?
I blame Paul McCartney
just circuses these days.
So we’ll be able to trade deals based on loads of military marching in time?
I hear Russia & North Korea do impressive parades- and that’s every year.
Not the soldiers marching up and down. The pageantry, fancy crowns, gilded thrones, history and all that claptrap. These days it’s just window dressing but hey the rest of the world seems to like it and let’s face it a lot of the more substantial strengths we have as a country are rather diminished and heading in the wrong direction so may as well keep up the stuff we’re good at.
yay we rock at chintz
just circuses these days
And they don’t have animals anymore, that’s why they had sailors pulling the gun carriage.
The benefits of abolition of the monarchy would be insignificant imo and have no bearing on the lives of most people.
I think it would be hugely beneficial — a rethinking of the relationship between people, power and state.
As history has shown, it has the potential to be an effective political tool for achieving change.
It can capture imaginations in ways that reforming the House of Lords will struggle to match.
It has the potential to become a Brexit-style issue that creates a common cause, particularly in Wales and Scotland.
And it's an idea that has time on its side.
I think it would be hugely beneficial — a rethinking of the relationship between people, power and state
That's just wishful thinking, no doubt your sincere in your belief but personally I doubt its true. Most people don't really have a relationship with power and the state. They just want to get on with their own lives and aren't really interested in change. Many value the monarchy as as a symbol of security and continuity. IMHO most people don't see the UK and is governance as something that's broken and needs fixing. STW isn't representative of the British population as a whole.