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Ultra runners, a quick question the training and long runs.
I’m doing a 40 miler in May and just want a sanity check on the backend of my schedule. I’m be building mileage and speed as normal and aiming at 50 mile weeks, but does this seem like a reasonable plan for the last month or so:
5 weeks out - 22 miles
4 weeks out - 18 miles
3 weeks out - 30 miles or race a marathon
2 weeks out - 18 miles
1 week out - 10 miles
Feels like a lot of mileage but I’m also conscious that I’m still 10 miles short of full distance.
What should I change?
I have a set of Walsh PB. Not any more traction over my Inov8 Mudclaw. Not as comfortable either. Where they win out is material selection. Very robust construction. Take a beating on the mountains, brush off, leave to dry and good as new. The sole material is also a lot denser and stiffer. Next to no give, so on a mixed course less than ideal. Anything less than total off road will wear down the spikes considerably. I'm a full size up on my normal running trainers (Nike Pegasus) and width is on the slim side so always thin socks. Any hill event you tend to be over the ankle deep in water relatively early on I find, so thin socks are ok.
It's a bit late to bring it up as race is tomorrow. It's a 10 miler with a mixture of trail and road. Was going to try to get some trail shoes that are good on road and off, but didn't so will be wearing my inov-8 x-talon. I'm concerned the rubber lugs will wear down after 4 miles of tarmac. What do you think?
A one off 4 miles should be ok for their longevity. It is a long way in such an aggressive sole though. Before I learned which events lent itself to soles like that I done a few mixed events in mud shoes. The worst thing was the feeling like I had football boots on and never really felt stable on hard pack ground.
Lunge, longest run I did before any of my 40 miles ultras was 20, but at a decent pace, ie a lot faster than I knew I'd go during the event.
Chatting to folk on the day helps the miles pass 😊
Thanks Lotto. They are aggressive and a little slippery on wet tarmac but are surprisingly compliant so I should be ok. Just need to go on that infuriating hunt for shoes again now. I could wear my Merrell 0mm drop shoes but I'm scared my calves won't thank me for it.
Here we go: What shoes are good on and off road, have a drop of about 4-6mm, a fairly wide toe box and don't cost the earth. Oh, and are in stock! Don't you just love it.
I have no idea what drop any of my 4 pairs of current running shoes have! 🤣
Probably the best way.
Here we go: What shoes are good on and off road, have a drop of about 4-6mm, a fairly wide toe box and don’t cost the earth. Oh, and are in stock! Don’t you just love it.
Nike Kiger?
Thanks lunge, will look at the Kiger.
Made a decision and ran in road shoes. Fine for about 99.9% of course apart from one muddy 20 Foot stretch that we crossed twice. First time around I leapt across a deep bit, no grip on landing, slipped out and fell, did barrel roll in the mud and carried on. Shoes filthy, me filthy. Almost did it second lap too. Apart from that they were the correct choice.
As for race, oh hell. Second lap was fairly agonising, legs screaming, massive hunger, hills that never end. Dragged myself to the end and got 1:18:45, 142 out of 629. Happy with that.
It was only 10 miles but felt like an epic to me.
Well done mate, that's a grand result.
Did Kendal Winter League first race at Scout Scar today. Fast and furious! My God it was hard! I was rubbish but it’s given me a kick up the arse to get fitter and hopefully complete the series (7/11) for only second time ever.
If you are local ish to South Lakes and fancy some good hard 4-5 mile xc/fell races then I thoroughly recommend ‘em. Very well organised.
http://www.helmhill.co.uk/index.php/races/80-races/114-kendal-winter-league
Anyone else do the county XCs at the weekend? We had the Cheshires Saturday around what looked a fairly dull grassy course. Turned out to be pretty sloggy and heavy going and they found a couple of tiny hills. Now settling in to my new bottom half of the field, old man position. Hey ho, don't train enough. Had a few decent battles, beat a couple of people that normally beat me, got beaten by even older men. Didn't die. Result. Be nice to get a bit more mountain time in for 2020.
Any fell race recommendations?.
Got a hankering to do some Lakes races, skidded and Causey pike on the radar, as N Lakes is better for a day trip from Ayrshire.
Also, my buddy prefers up n downs as he ain't into navigation.
Cheers!
Causey Pike is a nice race and you wont need any nav 🙂
I've run Skiddaw several times but not done the race, again v straightforward though.
No a bit too old and unfit for all that but I am proud of my nephew who gained an Inter Counties vest as an under 11 (5th) for Herts. almost 20 years after I had my first....
Well first run of the NY for me this morning. A slow 4km around a grotty Manchester park in the dark! I've been ill pretty much since mid December though so it was good to get out again. Back on it this week hopefully and try and get out in the hills at the weekend.
Nobeer - I'm aiming for the Great Lakes fell race this year but that's probably the opposite of what your buddy wants 😉 https://www.amblesideac.org.uk/races/our-races/great-lakes/
Just signed up for the Great North Run. I put my name in the ballot earlier (queue of folk waiting to enter the ballot online was over 7,000. Mrs went to sign up tonight and queue was 25,000. I know a huge proportion of those will have logged out by the time their turn comes around but on the basis of how popular it is, I’ve just signed up for a charity spot for The Christie hospital in Manchester. I’ve never done a charity event since I was a kid so it seemed as good a time as any 🙂
No idea what time is reasonable as I’ve never done anything that long on the road but got 1:45 in my head!
Joined a local running club, went out with them last Friday. Nice bunch and it was surprisingly pleasant to ruin a bit slower than usual and chat.
Been getting regular 5 to 10km runs in over the festive season and will start stepping the distance up a bit now.
Thanks for the poo-related advice before BTW, I think I'm starting to get a grip on it (no pun intended) but I should be OK if I follow my normal biking procedure of two installments before I head out.
😂
Aye, once is rarely enough!.
Grand, joining a running club has been great, not quite a year since we joined, but have made some really good friends and met loads of cracking people.
Cross-post from the 'doggy' thread but this is the way I've managed to keep my running mileage up despite the weather!
Esther, 2 year old rescue Labrador loves running - just a short distance to the end of the street and the canal towpath. With all the rain, she fair kicks up the mud but the harness means I get around quicker! Sub 45 min 10k the other day even though it was pretty muddy in places.
Would like to do a fell race some time. Not many down south.
My Tadworth 10:
Can't get GIF to embed.
@lunge if you can run a marathon you can certainly do a 40 mile ultra. Just make sure you train on similar terrain to the ultra. Time on your feet is probably more important than distance - when I'm hitting peak training with my mates we're usually something like 35km outings, maybe 6 hours or so up a mountain. (And my mates have successfully done the Tor des Geants, UTMB, etc...)
Been away from this thread as I was occupied with family stuff over Christmas rather than hunched over a computer!
Christmas day I took my dad to the Lauriston Parlauf, a 2-person relay around the bottom of Wimbledon common. First time I've actually been at home for Christmas and been able to make it, great fun, and we came 3rd before pottering back home for lunch.
New Years Day, I managed to mis-read the parkrun website for the times of special events were published, so didn't think it was possible to do double at Rushmoor/Frimley, as I have previously. Turned out they were at 9 and 10 so I could have made it, but had already made commitments so stuck to just one.
Sunday 5th, Surrey County XC Champs in Denbies, Dorking. I wasn't expecting much given how crap I've been feeling between runs, but went off optimistically hard and managed to hold on for 11th, my best placing by a long way. Our club also won the team competition, with me as the 3rd scorer, so everyone happy. Hopefully get a Surrey vest for the Inter-Counties in March.
Despite being able to pull a decent performance out of the bag when it matters, I do feel like I've aged about 10 years in less than 6 months. My legs have felt ruined after pretty much every run, regardless of duration and intensity, and my core has been struggling too. Recovery seems to be several days as opposed to a few hours. The evening after the Surrey Champs I felt like I'd run a marathon, as instead of 45 minutes. No idea how I'll crank it up to the intended 100 miles/week for London without turning into a complete cripple.... I certainly have to introduce some strength and conditioning into my weekly routine, but does this sound familiar to anyone? Is age just catching up with me? I am 40, and been running for about 5 years now, so not completely over the hill and did hope to continue at a decent level for a while longer.
Think my running mojo has finally disappeared completely. I have zero motivation to go running at the moment and think that might be it now. I tried to get back into it over the last few months but didn't feel I was making any progress at all.
Come for a run with me Colin, you'll feel awesome as you leave me for dead.
After riding Rivi in the filth on Sunday I'm actually considering taking my trainers instead of bike next time.
but does this sound familiar to anyone?
when was the last time you had a proper rest ? - bearing in mind i see you strava 😉
It sounds like classic fatigue from the outside looking in . i realise im probably teaching you to suck eggs but extended recovery is a major sign
as well as overtraining you can also end up with cumulative fatigue causing burn out - which just a build up of stresses within the body that manifests its self with similar to overtraining.
theres also the aspect that perhaps you are just pushing harder efforts out of your body. lets not forget that as a runner 40 is just coming into your prime.
You may also just be on the cusp of illness and your bodys fighting it hard to keep it away after your hard efforts.
when was the last time you had a proper rest ?
You do have a point. The time when I backed off the running most this year was just after York marathon, but also corresponded with several weeks of painting our new loft and getting 3-4 hours sleep per night. I ended up being more tired than had I been running 100+ miles/week and sleeping well.... Summer 2017 was probably the last real rest period, as I had hurt my heel the previous November and was trying to let it recover 😮
Maybe I've been trying to hold fitness for too much of the year with the intention of hitting lots of goals. Trying to beat all of my club mates who are mainly ~10 years my junior with no children might be a part of this.
Maybe I need to shorten my marathon build and switch to easy cycling to work for a couple of weeks. How long would you suggest taking it easy for?
I'm the wrong guy to ask about recovery periods.
How ever i will say from reading that it does sound like a path to self destruction.
I know Dean Karnazes famously believes sleep is for when your dead but i don't believe for one minute once in a while he doesnt just pack it in for a day or 2 and sleeps based on his schedule.
In a piece of shameless self promotion - this is my fell race: https://www.dashers.org.uk/mr-sparkles-dark-un
If anyone local-ish fancies having a go then I would be more than happy to see you. There is a Singletrack connection as a few off here have done it in previous years and Jenn was first lady once.
Some Sutton runners did Denbies. Quite tough apparently.
It was the driest Denbies I've ever encountered - no mud at all, 1 small puddle on the whole course. Previously I've seen folk lose shoes! Some rolling hills, and the course was slightly longer than last time, but virtually no wind, pretty nice conditions overall.
Good luck with your Inter Counties vest. As you will know unlike other xc races it is invitation only so every bugger there is in the top handful in their county.... It starts like no other race.....
Any good trail races around the Surrey Hills? Most of the Sutton lot did the T10 - 39 of us.
if you can run a marathon you can certainly do a 40 mile ultra. Just make sure you train on similar terrain to the ultra. Time on your feet is probably more important than distance – when I’m hitting peak training with my mates we’re usually something like 35km outings, maybe 6 hours or so up a mountain. (And my mates have successfully done the Tor des Geants, UTMB, etc…)
That's really good to hear. I will try and go over a marathon, for the pychological reasurance as much as anything. My mileage is going up week on week, I normally hit 35 ish per week but I think I need to be nearer 50 as I get into the training.
Just seen your Strava for the Denbies. Great time considering one of our faster runners came in at 50 minutes - the speed of the top runners astounds me. You beat Ollie Garrod too who wins the Nonsuch parkrun most weeks. You should come along to that and go for a win, although you mentioned family commitments.
@surfer took me a couple of years adjusting to being less fit, health niggles and generally running less (key factor I suspect!). Coming to terms with letting go of older performances (never stellar) and being able to enjoy racing at newer, crapper level. It's still a fun battle at whatever pace. And running offroad means times are largely irrelevant 🙂
Congrats to your nephew, nice work!
I was a reserve for the Inter-Counties last year, and got a call up just a few days prior. However by this time I had assumed I wasn't in the team, so had made other commitments, so had to turn it down 🙁 Unfortunately for Surrey we didn't close in a full team due to a DNF. I would expect to be higher up the list of potentials this year, but as the Surrey League is also used as a judge of form, and as I can't make those due to kids swimming, it's not a given.
I would assume that I'd be one of the slowest racing and would have to manage my expectations accordingly.
@roots-n-5th
I know Ollie pretty well, we've raced each other for quite a few times. He's incredibly consistent and has been improving while also extending the distances he's racing. I see that for the entirety of 2019, in the 51 parkruns he ran in, he was the first finisher in 49! He was in my group until about half-way when he dropped off, but still managed his highest ever position.
Not run further than about 6 miles since doing the Joss Naylor Challenge last June. What's that you say - the 32 mile Haworth Hobble is open for entries? Oh, go on then. #idiot.
Wow MrSparkle, did you manage to get a tankard?
I will try and go over a marathon, for the pychological reasurance as much as anything
Stepping up to a longer distance is largely in the head. Obviously the training is important but psychology is probably more so.
Ballot entry in for carnethy five, anyone else? Spin? Will?
and being able to enjoy racing at newer, crapper level. It
You are spot on. It took me a little while to adjust from my mediocre level (but often within sight of the sharper end) to much further back in the field. Veteran athletics is fantastic and a real motivator but I am embarrassed to say I was possibly a bit of a Prima Dona for a while.... I am over that and at the end of the day regardless of performance I know I will run until I simply cant do it any more and I have "racing" in my blood, however slow that may be. I turned 55 in October and am focused on staying injury free and looking to race other V55's whenever I can, regardless of where I am in the field.. I am happy to beat plenty of other younger age groups as well....
Wow MrSparkle, that is an outstanding achievement and an excellent written account. Great information regards training too. Well done, and a handshake from Joss Naylor at the end too, I should think memories made on that day will last forever. A very nice personal touch pre booking The Screes, I bet that was a good night. Have you any more challenges on the horizon?
@dashed - top man. I am aiming to have a night recce in the near future followed by a pint in the Royal after.
@lotto. Thank you! It was a tough day out but I scraped in by the skin of my teeth. I'm only just over tendinitis gained doing the JNC and have struggled with mojo since but have now rashly entered the Hobble as mentioned above. We'll see how it goes.
I remember reading your account a little while ago, brilliant effort! What were your leg splits??
Cheers.
Leg 1 - 3'27". Leg 2 - 2'21". Leg 3 - 4'26". Leg 4 - 4'11"
@MrSparkle - I was about to sign up for your Dark Un and realised it's valentine's day, and you know what an old romantic I am. You don't mention what truly grim weather you had for your JNC. I was thinking I could have a pop at this in my dotage but you're way fitter than me and didn't have a lot to spare 🙂
@anyone else - Dark Un is great race. A truly memorable event. Recommended.
Thanks MrSparkle!
Hi Steve. Yes, it's on VD. It'll be the 'Luuuuuvre Edition' which should make the Disco on the tops interesting... ;0).
Re JNC: Aye, weather wasn't ideal. I think I would have been A LOT faster if it had been any better AND I had sorted my eating out before it was too late. I think you are eminently capable of doing it. It's a good route.
I have a couple of questions question for those of you that said running cured their knee issues.
How bad where your knees before as I struggle to stand up due to dodgy knees, but once I am up I am mostly OK.
When you started running did your knees get worse before they got better?
My knee wasn't as bad as yours sounds, I had a meniscal arthroscopy done privately, consultant said stick to 5k, no more than 10k.
That looked quite prophetic as it swelled at first when I started back, and would be stiff and painful.
Kept going, stuck to 5k, and it eventually stopped.
Feels better than ever now, managed 4 ultra marathons last year, 7 hill races and a fair few halfs.
Everyone's injuries are different though. All the best with it.
a handshake from Joss Naylor at the end too
I got a Joss handshake at a race last Easter. Haven't washed it since.
Fantastic. I've never seen him in real life, only ever in books/tv. Comes across as the sort of guy that when he is around and talks, then people stop and actually listen to take heed. Not a lot of people with that quality.
Incredible achievements by Joss Naylor. I really can't comprehend how anybody does such things as it's so far beyond my capability.
Having said that someone I know moved to Devon a few years back and when he lived near me he was relatively unfit, just picked up a folding bike and was starting to potter around slowly on it. I caught up with last year and he showed my his running certificates - 5K, 10K, 10 miles, Half, Marathon, Ultra and then the 100 mile coast run of some sort. Atounding. Well done all!
Unlike some of the machines on this thread i'm firmly in the plodder thread. After a good run of injury free running in the 2nd half of last year i've set myself target of running 1,000km this year. Thats > double what i did last year (running a couple of 5km / week usually) so feels quite a challenge.
Doing ok so far with 44km in the bag. Lets hope i can keep this consistency up all year!
Good start djambo!.
Medium run weekend.
Clachnaben 20k teaching my ironman mate who regularly Carries **** all anywhere...but is doing the hill marathon next month with me which runs under Scottish hill running rules so you have to carry minimum kit.
So what to carry where to carry and find out if his bag fits.
@djambo - same goal here >1000km. So far I’ve done 13km!! Cannot get rid of this bloody cold!!
Having only ever done a maximum of 12km, which was a trail run, but regularly doing 5k or 10k’s twice a week, should I be mindful of anything when running half-marathon distance? I had hoped to do it in December but the lurgy and a rolled ankle put paid to that; do I need to take water/food etc., or should I just do my usual and run out the door?
Just be well hydrated, fuel as you would for a 10k, head out and take it easy.
Ta. Didn’t fancy carrying anything other than my hefty frame.
Proper Newby here.
Ive started a journey, with the aim to be able to run a bit, having not ran for a very long time.
Broke my finger before christmas, so haven'tbeen on the bike since. In my frustration this week, thought it a good opportunity to start running.
downloaded the couch to 5k app for a bit of guidance, and headed out yesterday morning.
it went OK I think, 8 no. 60 sec runs with 90 sec walk between. sounds easy enough and in terms of being out of breathI felt fine. Guess most of my biking fitness is OK for that, but the front and medialis bits of my thigh were starting to ache. To be expected, don't really use those much otherwise.
Today the DOMS have started. not too bad aside from yesterdays achey muscles. I'll keep it up, was hoping to get out again tomorrow, but I think I may need to wait at least another day before the ache has decreased. Over time I'll get used to using those muscles and using running as a bit of cross training may actually be a feasible thing.
🙂
Lovewookie, just keep chipping away at your own pace and you will eventually get there 👍
Lovewookie, sounds like you know what you're doing, keep at it.
Today the DOMS have started. not too bad aside from yesterdays achey muscles. I’ll keep it up, was hoping to get out again tomorrow, but I think I may need to wait at least another day before the ache has decreased. Over time I’ll get used to using those muscles
As someone who's taken up running twice in the last year or so (but rides a lot anyway), I found I only got bad DOMS once. It took longer to build up to being able to run 10km-plus without adverse effect, but I think my legs have toughened up now.
Might actually be starting to enjoy it, a bit.
Slow first parkrun for ages, 2 weeks ago. 2 weeks training, 80 seconds improvement. Long way to go.
A certain Mr Boardman some way in front...
It would be great if anyone could complete this survey please:
It is for a Masters Degree and he would very much appreciate it 🙂
The DOMS put me off last time I tried, stopped me enjoying biking for a few days!
This time I'm not on the bike anyway, so will keep at it. 🙂
Also another running noob here. Started with easy an 3km late last year and have now managed a few 5km runs so far this year. I'm using it as a bit of cross training and heading out very early before the wife heads off to work,the kids don't seem to want to cycle in this weather 😂
Wouldn't say I'm enjoying it yet but the aches afterwards are a lot less, stretching has definitely helped that.
Just done the Surrey League div 3 at Oxshott. I love XC races!
Hell of a morning this morning.
Run to parkrun where I’m the ED.
Run parkrun.
Bit of volunteering doing some barcode scanning.
Helped shut down only to find we had a record attendance.
10 mile run home.
Freshly baked sourdough from the bakery down the road.
I’m not sure Saturdays get any better than that you know.
Question for some of the ultra runners on here - I'm keen to do some bike work on sufferfest as running during the week at this time of year isn't always an option due to other commitments. With a 50 mile ultra in a few months, what type of bike workouts would you be focusing on? Mostly endurance or a mix across the board?
It would be great if anyone could complete this survey please:
Done 🙂
To follow up with my fatigue/strange injury woes I had a blood taken for a full count on Friday, hopefully get the results early next week to try and determine what may or may not be ailing me.
Had a very gently jog to and from swimming with the buggy yesterday, and yesterday evening felt like a complete cripple 😮 Severe pain very concentrated on my lower abs, right above my pubic bone, most odd... Hips were hurting too, not ideal 🙁
Tbh Cferg, for me personally, biking doesn't do much for my running.
Sorry!.
Inspiration incoming. 75 year old has just joined our club, chucked drink and fags at 70, took up running, having never done it before.
He ran a sub 25 minute 5k at club time trial.
Unreal.
Turboferret - hope you get to the bottom of your recent issues and it’s nothing sinister.
Question for some of the ultra runners on here – I’m keen to do some bike work on sufferfest as running during the week at this time of year isn’t always an option due to other commitments. With a 50 mile ultra in a few months, what type of bike workouts would you be focusing on? Mostly endurance or a mix across the board?
I'd just do a mix, trying to stick to just endurance would lead me to giving up fairly quickly.