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Good stuff all, keep it up.
Sutton Runners Virtual 10k today. Undulating course but good conditions.
Many thanks to @turboferret for pacing me around the course. I was going for a sub-45 as I felt it was in me, but wasn’t sure after a lack of sleep and a bit of asthma this morning, and knew I would have to dig very deep. Amazing pacing from a true master - look at these splits. I’d never have been so consistent solo:
1, 4:14, -6 elevation.
2. 4:20, 5
3. 4:18, -3
4. 4:30, 6
5. 4:16, -8
6. 4:30, 7
7. 4:16, -10
8. 4:33, 14
9. 4:23, -7
10. 4:08, 3.
Came in at 43:18, couldn’t stand up or breathe, very happy.
Just to add, I looked at the heart rate data. Me redlining from 2km, on the absolute limit, the thin line between glory and death, turbo ran the whole thing in zone 2, moderate, chatty pace. Impressive!
Good work!
Got a 10k pb of my own today, first sub 1hr at 59:14.
Kept it at 153bpm average, with a peak of 170 in the last 0.5k to make sure I made it under the hour, that's high zone 2/low zone 3 for me for most of the run.
Edit: just started watching turboferret's video, sub-4 min km's to start?! Jesus christ, I can't even imagine running that fast for more than a minute!!
@ta11pau1 Good going! That’s a good run with low heart rate. Mine was zone extreme for 8k of that. Brain went funny after 8k. Like running, but sometimes those efforts are horrible.
Cheers - I'm happy that I'm able to do 10k without too much thought (just a good day or 2's rest beforehand) considering I've only ever run that distance twice before - 10k and 11.5k, back in April.
My 10k was quite enyoable 😀 Was trying to keep my HR at 150 while also hitting 6:00 /km.
Day 100 of my streak today, I’ve now run at least 5k every day since lockdown began. Finished it with a 5k today after knocking out a 1:40 half yesterday.
Loving the work at the moment.
Was great to meet Sam/root-n-5th in person yesterday, and I was impressed with his effort, sticking with me the whole way despite being well out of his comfort zone. Totally smashed his PB, and based on his post-run pose, I reckon he squeezed a good proportion of his potential out, which is half of the game.
I had a 2x2 mile with 3 minute recovery this morning, part of our club virtual summer challenges. I programmed a workout into my Garmin to avoid any errors, but then foolishly misinterpreted the beeps towards the end of the first rep and started my walk recovery before the effort was over 😮 Probably cost me 10 seconds before I realised and broke back into a panicked sprint 😀
I did the first half of a "virtual" ultra this weekend - the real thing would have run on Friday night / Saturday, but has been cancelled due to covid19. To make up for it the organisation is running it via a Strava club and if you complete the ultra before the end of August you get a chance of winning a free entry next year. The entry fee is a donation to a local food bank so kudos to the organisation for that.
Anyway 6 of us set off at 23:30 Friday night, and finished with very sore feet at 10:00 the following morning. 61km up and down some local mountains which is the longest run I've done this year and at least 35km further than I've been since lockdown. I have to say I was very glad to get to the finish as the last 5k or so were a bit of a nightmare 🙂
@mogrim - sounds pretty epic. Hopefully build up to that one day.
@turboferret - Pleasure to meet you in person too and once again, thanks for the torture!
I realise my 10K is not exactly the pinnacle of running achievement in the grand scheme of things, but from a personal point of view it feels quite special. Considering that in September 2019 I was "building up" to doing a longer distance run, which was the local parkrun of 5K, without getting injured or having to stop because of spurious pain, to be able to push myself like yesterday reminds me how amazing the human body is. To all those new runners out there, keep at it, it will come if you build it up slowly. I'm really Mr Average in regard to athleticism, but I think half the battle, as Turbo alluded to, is being willing to suffer. I think I'm above average in that respect as I do look at some people and think they aren't trying hard enough - I can't see the fear in their eyes. I give everything in races which I think accounts a lot towards better performance on the whole and unlocks a huge amount of potential - it's amazing what you are capable of if you really, really push it. Not pleasant at the time though.
This thread has been encouraging over the last year.
Rest day today. Legs feel used, but good.
Seems I'm hopefully not too far off your times @roo-n-5th. My 10k pb is 47.5 mins and 5k just over 22 mins.
Curious to see hear how your training matches up. I've built up to 60k a week z2 runs and up until 2 weeks ago no speed work. Only other speed work was the occasional 5k attempt a bit I did following the garmin HM plan for the GNR last year but that was on much lower mileage.
I've just started a proper training plan now, from the faster road running book, I'm on week 2. Hopefully my times will start to improve.
How far are you weekly totals and do you do speed work etc?
Top work on the Jubilee Greenway Turboferret - how was the route?
I've upped my mileage a fair bit this month, 160km - 100km further than previous biggest month! Enjoying it more and more and with no date for gyms reopening I am going to continue. Can't decide whether to run a marathon or try to smash a 5km PB which was my original goal.
I like the idea of some fun challenges like this 10km with a twist.
@j4mesj4mes - Sounds like you're doing well.
After lockdown, the club stopped its sessions so I floundered a bit, then went out every other day for an unstructured Tempo/threshold run of about 5 miles. Started feeling tired and not much fitter, so took a step back. Somebody on here mentioned the 80/20 plan so, with the Sutton Runners 10K three and a half weeks away, I condensed a 12 weeks 10K training plan from the book into 3 weeks to see what would happen. Nothing to lose.
The zone 2 runs felt incredibly slow, but as I did more, my speed increased a bit - easier to heart rate down for a given speed. Hard interval sessions once or twice a week depending on the program with rest day after, or very slow recovery run. I probably averaged about 40-50K per week - more in the middle peak week - 57Km - and hopefully going out for an easy half marathon (even there thought of that a month a go would have me questioning my sanity) on Tuesday evening to get my monthly total to 200K - far more tan I've ever done.
The book states that the key is to avoid the "useless" zone 3 work as it tires you out, has no more benefit than slower runs and you can't run as far.
To put the zone 2 stuff in context, most of my 5 mile runs were about 4:40-4:50 min/km, the zone 2 stuff is 6min/km or there abouts. Waaaaay slower. Thing is, I will run for an hour or more, feel relatively fresh but the legs feel like they have had a good workout.
Speed work is important though (although it depends what you are training for I suppose), but, again as mentioned on here by Turboferret, it should be really hard - zone 4 and 5, and no longer that 25 minutes. Love the Garmin workouts for this.
I was sceptical, very sceptical, as I just seemed to be running slower and longer. Having done no tempo work or speed intervals longer than 2 minutes (but faster tan 10K pace) for nearly a month, when I set off yesterday for the 10k it really was a step into the unknown.
I fully expected to blow up completely after the first 2K, but despite a quick start from Turboferret and triple-taking the first Km at 4:14, the second and 4:20, the third at 4:18, and so on, which is a decent 5K pace for me, I started to believe I could do it as I was holding it together. I controlled the breathing pretty well and the legs didn't really start to burn until after 8Km. The pacing helped massively of course, but I'm sticking with this 80/20 business to see where is takes me as I improved from a "cheaty" 44:46 10K a month ago that was 2K downhill to start and the rest flat. This was a much tougher course.
I think I'd include some tempo runs on a longer program. Might train for the sub-20 5K next...
Interesting point about HR "easier to heart rate down for a given speed. "
I am no expert but my understanding and experience of HR (I dont think it is a particularly useful measure BTW) is that:
1: With a lot of training your resting rate falls. Mine is still very low in spite of doing no real hard running for years (I am 55 and ran competitively (that doesnt mean quickly) for about 40yrs)
2: The fitter you are the quicker your HR drops after very intensive exercise. Super fit athletes see HR rates plummet after only a few seconds.
3: Your maximum is "fixed" and there is little you can do to alter this. Interested in others thoughts but this is what I have experienced
4: Estimates of maximums are a waste of time. You need to do an intensive test to determine your max
This means you have a HR training "window" and hard training means for a given effort/speed you move down that window so are able to run faster with an apparent lower HR rate.
IMO its useful and important information but even if you are using a structured training plan its not necessary to monitor your HR and it can be impacted by many extraneous things which have little bearing on running. Running on "feel" is more appropriate although it does take some experience before you are able to interpret this and guage your effort. A HR monitor will be useful in this stage but I wouldnt bother once this is know.
@mark88 the Jubilee Greenway was quite a nice route. Bit of parks to start off with, little bit of road to get up to Paddington, then canal all the way to Stratford. Nice wide path all the way to Beckton, then park down to the Thames. Then it's river all the way, although some bits around the Greenwich Peninsula are far from picturesque. I had amazing weather for my run which helped.
However, as expected, Paul Martelletti (check out those PBs and weep), took my FKT yesterday. I fully expected this, and the only way he wasn't going to do so was by getting horribly lost, which he didn't! 2 surprises; firstly he only took 6 1/2 minutes off my time, partly down to detour I had to make for a locked gate about 16 miles in, secondly he consumed 1750ml of water to my 400ml 😮 Obviously starting at 4am helped from a fluid requirement perspective!
My next target is the 78 mile Capital Ring. I think knocking 2 hours off sounds like a reasonable goal 🙂 I'm hoping that this recent delivery will help keep me fuelled!
@surfer. I meant "easier to keep heart rate down", but I suspect you got that. I think it tallies with what you are saying that the windows come down. Zone 1 was a walk for me a month ago, now it's a slow run. Agreed heart rate isn't ideal - the chest strap helps a lot - but I'm still learning to run by feel. Getting there slowly. It's good discipline having the watch bleep at me when I go too high - just back off, bring it down and all is well. Just don't confuse the watch beeps for something they are not 😉
@turboferret - gutted about Greenway. Only 6.5 mins though...
And those Injinjijijiji socks keep cropping up. I looked into getting some but there is a huge choice. Are those your recommended variety? I prefer short socks though.
Just had a look at Garmin training plans, the 5k plan in particular, as it's been on my agenda for ages to get below 20 mins, it only goes down to 22 minutes? wtf?
Aside from colour, how do those pairs of socks differ? I'm particularly interested in the ultra ones and if they're good for longer offroad stuff. Can you compare them to twinskins by likes of Hilly for reducing blisters etc? Thanks
Duplicate post...
The missus wears those injinji socks and rates them as they keep your toes apart so much less chance of unexpected blisters around the toes. They are pretty well regarded in ultra circles as I understand it.
They don't seem to last long though.
I've never worn them though so can't really comment on any of the above.
@TF - Isn't Paul Martelletti a NZ international athlete? 6.5 minutes behind over that distance is outstanding, scope to take it off him?
After an extensive testing period my preferred Injinji are Trail Crew. Trails are reasonably padded, and the crew length stops you getting trail debris in your socks which can happen with the shorter ones. First wear of the ultras this morning, felt fairly similar, potentially a little thinner. Lots of different thicknesses and lengths available, so should be something to suit everyone who is toesock curious. I have knee length compression ones for some racing too. Cant offer any comparison to any more normal socks as I've worn these exclusively for years. Not mega hardwearing unfortunately...
I find HR a good indicator if I'm overexerting on longer stuff, but also a useful indicator of fitness. I remember running home from work sometime last year not long before a marathon. It was a brisk 19km run at about 1:20 HM pace, and I noticed that my average HR was about 125 BPM which showed I was in good form.
Marders as he calls himself is indeed a Kiwi but races for GB these days, plenty of international experience such as the IAU 100k World Champs. He's not infallible though - I beat him at the York Marathon last autumn (he was the returning champ), but clearly he was having an off day 🙂
With the right conditions I'm sure I could get close to or improve on his time, although I'm not sure I can be bothered 😀
With the right conditions I’m sure I could get close to or improve on his time, although I’m not sure I can be bothered 😀
Ha ha - fair play, still it's excellent for a one time effort, muchos kudos.
Any tips on where to start on trail running shoes? Something with reasonable ankle support around £70ish
Do I go a bit higher and get Salamon Speedcross which seem to be well regarded (popular)?
I didn't feel that speedcross offered much support, was quite happy when the wee lace retainer broke after 1 run, took em back and swapped for old faithful Asics Fujitrabuco.
Weren't as bad as mudclaws, they have you perched up like Elton John circa 1975 😂 first run in them was the Carnethy 5, not a sensible idea for new trainers to be honest.
I love my Fujis, have standard ones for trail running and ultras, GTX model for hillwalking.
I like Nike Pegasus Trail @mark88. It’s not an aggressive shoe, works well on a range of surfaces, though not great in mud.
Any tips on where to start on trail running shoes? Something with reasonable ankle support around £70ish
Trail running shoes don't really have ankle support - they're for running, not hiking! FWIW I don't get on with Salomon, but lots of people do. IME they're quite narrow with a higher arch, which is a very "opinionated" way to keep your foot in place. I like a bit more space.
At the moment I'm using Saucony Xodus Iso 3's, which are massive and very comfortable but quite weighty. Previously I've had (and liked) Innov8s, New Balance, Altra, La Sportiva, and probably a few more. I tend to go to a shop and see what's on offer and what feels good.
Not a great deal of help when it comes to answering your question, but TBH I think people tend to overthink this, when pretty much all the shoes will be fine for 95% of the time, and if you're running in that final 5% you'll probably have a pretty good idea of what you need.
Trail running shoes don’t really have ankle support – they’re for running, not hiking!
I guess I mean something supportive, rather than light weight. I have a habit of rolling my ankle when I'm hiking or running on uneven ground.
Not a great deal of help when it comes to answering your question, but TBH I think people tend to overthink this
Of course, but nice to have some direction. I'm always conscious of going into a shop and receiving a sales pitch rather than unbiased advice so like to have a good idea of what I'm looking for first.
Do I go a bit higher and get Salamon Speedcross which seem to be well regarded (popular)?
Speedcross are OK, bit high at the back, bit floppy at the front, bit skitey on wet rock but generally OK all round. I've had several pairs for training/daily running and you can often pick them up very cheap. Salomon are better suited to narrow feet.
If you want something a bit firmer/lower drop I really like my Salomon Sense Pro 3 - not sure if these are still available but there seems to be a mark 4.
Not a great deal of help when it comes to answering your question, but TBH I think people tend to overthink this, when pretty much all the shoes will be fine for 95% of the time, and if you’re running in that final 5% you’ll probably have a pretty good idea of what you need.
Agreed, I'm pretty happy with comfy as a priority, plenty space in the toe box and a decent grip.
I've been quite happy with my cheap New Balance MT590 V4's. They're wearing well - 122km on them, plus they're my 'normal' trainers for everyday wear.
New 10km PB for me last night, pleased with 51m47sec given it was part off road with styles/gates and part road. Given me some impetus to see if I can get to sub 50m at somepoint.
Hip is giving me problems post runs and whilst sleeping at the moment though.
I guess I mean something supportive, rather than light weight. I have a habit of rolling my ankle when I’m hiking or running on uneven ground.
I've not seen any running shoes that really support your ankle - it's not really compatible with running. Even the Sauconys I've got at the moment (and they're a complete panzer tank of a shoe) have limited ankle support:
IME to save your ankles you're better off using a bosu or similar once or twice a week to build up strength.
As to a potential sales pitch, I'd just be wary of anyone insisting you need a particular type of shoe, most models are fine. Equally you don't need to get trail shoes from a trail shoe brand, the mainstream brands like New Balance and Adidas have good stuff too. And you don't need goretex 🙂
600km on my brooks cascadia 14’s and showing very little wear, thinking about buying a second pair to rotate them and mean I don’t have to run in wet shoes.
Building up the distances over the last 3months of being furloughed and up to 20k plus now, which considering I could only hobble 100yds down the road in January, I’m pretty happy with.
By support, I'd suggest something with a wide footprint, I felt like I was gonna roll my ankle at any minute on the mudclaws, far too narrow.
Decided I'm running too many runs at the same pace, and probably doing too many tempo runs and intervals too, ran a really slow 5 miler early doors this morning, trying to keep my HR around 130bpm, which equates to 9 minute miles.
I'm not fast by any means, but I find it hard to stick to that pace, keep finding myself drifting to a quicker pace.
...but I find it hard to stick to that pace, keep finding myself drifting to a quicker pace.
Having only started running in Dec/Jan I find I only have one pace. I'm getting quicker but I don't find it easy to slow down. My mins/mile are all fairly consistent so it's not like I'm starting quick and then petering out....I just can't seem to run slower. Only reason I'd like to slow slightly is that all my runs seem to have me averaging 170bpm with a peak of 180bpm (measured on wrist with FR45)
dooos, try moving your 45 up your wrist, above wrist bone, I find it reads a bit more steady here than it does on the actual wrist joint. 170 seems awful high, not saying it's wrong mind, we're all different.
There's definitely gains to be had by running slower on occasion, worth trying. I find it easier if I go for a social run with someone who's slower, takes your mind off it a bit chatting away.
45 is already a good cm above wrist bone. I think my problem is I'm 6'7" and I can't maintain a decent stride and run slow, just feels like shuffling.
Aye, I feel a bit like that too, and I'm 5" shorter than you!
I'm 6ft 3in and at 6:00-6:30 /km pace I can hold 165 cadence fairly easily. Trail running, even on mellow stuff helps as you have to take shorter steps over roots/rocks etc.
On a long slow run I try and keep my HR below 150, a recent 6.2k at 6:08 /km pace was 149bpm average, if I can get that down to the low 140's on a 6:20 /km longer run I'll be happy.
One thing about heart rate is it's very personal, so make sure you aren't comparing yourself to others, as even 2 people the same fitness, age, weight etc running the same pace can have wildly different heart rates.
My heart rate will drop to 30 overnight, averaged 111 for a 21km easy run this morning at 4:49/km but was about 167 as I was balls-out for a 2x2 mile session yesterday. I hit 181 towards the end on a 5 mile TT a few weeks ago where I was really flying, but very rarely see above 170 even on hard efforts.
200k run in June. Left myself with 21km to do last night so did a half marathon. Found some good hills Carshalton way, easy zone 2 for 18k, then saw I might nip under 2 hours so upped the pace for end. Really enjoyed the fast running!
1:57 for half, longest run of 22km, didn’t stop, toes hurt - my curse.
toes hurt – my curse
Check how you lace your shoes - I use the second lacing pattern on the following link to lock down the heel, stops my foot sliding forwards particularly on downhills:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/comments/38xryo/lpt_how_to_lace_your_running_shoes/
@mogrim Thanks. Yep, I use that system. The shoes are big with lots of space at the front and I lock in pretty tight, to the point where it hurts the top of my foot then back off a bit. These new shoes are MUCH better and I can live with it, even though I have to wear toe protectors. It’s the third toe that seems to get it. I have very squared off feet that aren’t foot shaped. I’ll keep experimenting.
Another 10k today, that's 2 in a row...
Slow one today, wanted to keep my HR in the low 140's.
6:41 /km pace, 140 average HR. Result! 1:06 time vs my 59 min 10k the other day, but 13 bpm less average.
Ben Nevis race now cancelled so the only thing I've got left is the OMM at the end of October! Hoping it can go ahead as you can distance from everyone bar your partner in that!
Right then, talk spikes to me.
The local track is back open and there is also an outside chance we'll get a Cross Country season too so it's another excuse to buy a pair of shoes.
I've not bought a pair for 20 years and I'm looking for a pair for XC first and foremost that'll also do the job for the occasional track session.
2 questions:
1, Anything I should look for or avoid?
2, What length spikes are people running? I think I used to run 9mm on the track, does that sound about right? Longer for XC I guess?