How did I ignore someone’s openness. Someone comments about people hiding behind science. I explain as a biological scientist why it is. Maybe you are confused by what I wrote.
They explained the mental turmoil they go through and your response was one of those they have issues with and causes them such turmoil. You didn’t explain anything, you simply said man woman like some sort of caveman.
Even our “Fisherman” is called “Nelayan” (gender neutral) and not something like “fisherthem” whatever
There's plenty of examples of that inn English as well though.
Alex is a receptionist.
Nicky is a builder.
Sam is a sales director.
None of those give any indication of gender.
Unless you're the OP and feel the need to say "Sam is a woman sales director" for some reason.
It’s not about you. Or me. Other people have much more difficult life journeys, let’s have some empathy and try and be kind.
Never a truer word spoken.
@boriselbrus @theotherjonv you both have my utmost admiration and respect
I went to an all boys school in the 1990’s. My parents were openly transphobic.
That sounds tough. I suspect that your experience would have been far more tolerable had your parents been different and had it happened 30 years later.
A grandson of a very close friend of mine is currently transitioning. He is 17 years old and is doing it at his own pace. I spend quite a bit of time in his company and chatting to him as they all live in the same house (he is still fine about being called he and him) I wouldn't call him gender fluid as I never really see him without makeup etc.
Most importantly is that he is totally supported and loved by his family, and he can be whatever he wants to be. He has a huge circle of friends and receives 100% support from the college that he attends.
It is hard to imagine a less depressed looking teenager - he always appears happy and laughing and joking. He dresses exactly how he wants. Although I do believe that he has suffered some peer bullying, which is why the support he receives from his college is so important.
And he does receive regular counseling to help him with what is obviously a difficult journey, he is still unsure about exactly how he wants to proceed, he is still very young - only just 17. He changed his name about 6 months ago but has no problem at all if I sometimes refer to him by his birth name - I have known him since he was a very small child. I guess eventually he will want to be referred to as female but he will tell us when that time comes.
Thirty years later and with also a totally different attitude from your parents I am sure your experiences might have been quite different boriselbrus.
Well said, sir.
your response was one of those they have issues with and causes them such turmoil
If someone has issue over science then all I can do is explain it (which I did). People can accept what science is or they can get offended by it but science doesn't care if you get offended. If someone says to me they have changed sex I'm going to say you haven't.
The male / female definitions are clear. Males are individuals who do or did or will or would, but for developmental or genetic anomalies, produce small mobile gametes, sperm. Females are individuals who do or did or will or would, but for developmental or genetic anomalies, produce large immobile gametes, eggs.
That some people believe they are in a body of the wrong sex and are distressed by this is regrettable, but humans can’t change sex. Claiming that men (adult males) can become women (adult females) denies the reality of sex based differences, both physical and social. Accepting a subset of men as women invalidates the concept of women’s rights and denies women opportunities and spaces of their own.
And what about those with developmental or genetic anomalies? I refer you to my earlier question (which unsurprisingly went unanswered):
What if when they were born the baby’s genitals were undeveloped so it was ambiguous?
What if, because it was unclear they were surgically assigned a sex (IIRC this is usually female because “it’s easier to make a hole than a pole”)?
And for a Brucie Bonus: what if the doctor got it wrong?
How would you propose we classify those "who do or did or will or would... produce small mobile gametes, sperm" but were surgically assigned as female at birth by a well-meaning doctor?
It's not as clear as you think it is (or want to be). And that's the problem. You're seeking simple answers to complicated issues.
Why can't people just be allowed to be who they want to be and love who they want to love in life?
Why is so bloody difficult to let people just "be"?
Why can’t people just be allowed to be who they want to be and love who they want to love in life?
Why is so bloody difficult to let people just “be”?
Because a hairy builder from Bradford might put on a frock and hang around in women's toilets. Obvs.
That some people believe they are in a body of the wrong sex and are distressed by this is regrettable, but humans can’t change sex.
I'll accept (grudgingly) that in the majority of TG cases people cannot change sex, if the definition is chromosome based. Although they can take hormones and undergo surgery that to all intents and purposes drive the same changes - at this point chromosomes don't change. Who knows what medical science can do genetically in the future.
But do you accept that people can change gender, which is the social construct rather than a scientific 'fact'? Because if you do then why can a man not become a woman and v/v? You are conflating sex (m/f) with gender (man/woman) and I reject your definitions of a woman as an adult female on that basis.
The argument of denying women spaces has been rehearsed many times. I don't deny there may be predatory men pretending to be women to take advantage of that - deal with that when it happens. But it does not define the massively vast majority of TG people and to deny or restrict them their freedom to be who they want to be because of the presence of a tiny number of bad actors is I'm afraid wrong way round. IMHO, and of course I have a particular chip so can't claim to be unbiased.
I’ll accept (grudgingly) that in the majority of TG cases people cannot change sex, if the definition is chromosome based.
And there are more chromosome combinations than the two common ones.
But that's not the argument generally presented, is it. The argument is "yes but penis."
I don’t deny there may be predatory men pretending to be women to take advantage of that – deal with that when it happens.
I dare say. But there's nothing to stop predatory men pretending to be women (for whatever that might gain them🤷♂️) regardless of anything to do with trans rights, self-identification or pronoun usage. I almost walked into the women's toilets by accident at the hospital earlier on today, no-one rugby-tackled me to the ground to protect women's spaces.
IMHO, and of course I have a particular chip so can’t claim to be unbiased.
Honestly Jon, I think you're reliably the voice of reason on this topic. You do a stand-up job of trying to understand and discuss both sides. I don't know how you do it, the stubbornness just makes me vexed and I don't have any skin in this game.
And there are more chromosome combinations than the two common ones.
yep, but that's why I say i'n the majority of cases'. The uncommon combinations I have no idea how to sort.
Honestly Jon, I think you’re reliably the voice of reason on this topic. You do a stand-up job of trying to understand and discuss both sides. I don’t know how you do it, the stubbornness just makes me vexed and I don’t have any skin in this game.
Thanks. Inside at times I'm seething, but I suspect that's what some posters are aiming for. I won't give that satisfaction in public at least.
I cannot express how angry you make me. You always come on to these threads with your bullshit "science" as though that trumps everything. Have you ever read anything I've ever written? Have you no empathy at all? I've opened up on this forum and shared things that I've never even been able to share with those closest to me. I've shared how desperate I feel and how every day is a struggle and you keep repeating the same old crap about definitions and chromosomes like some stupid robot. I do this to try and make people understand in the hope that they will be kinder to people who struggle every day just to make it through the day. Clearly I've failed.
I am a hunan being with human emotions and feelings and you make me feel so crap and so ashamed of what I am. You are the reason I don't come here much these days.
Well you know what, you win. I can't cope with reading your hateful bile anymore. I hope you are proud of yourself. I feel sorry for the children you teach, God forbid any of them have gender dysphoria and come to you for support.
I do this to try and make people understand in the hope that they will be kinder to people who struggle every day just to make it through the day.
Your efforts at sharing are appreciated by some of us. I’m sure that in the past they have helped me act better towards others… and as it turned out helped prepare me for things in my own life. Thank you.
Your efforts at sharing are appreciated by some of us.
+1. I've been reading this thread throughout but have nothing useful to say. However, don't feel obliged to share anything. Treasure your time - and don't cast pearls before swine. 🐷🐷
I cannot express how angry you make me.
To be fair you could choose not to be angry. I disagree fundamentally with poah's attempt to offer this as a straightforward physical issue and claim that he is merely recognising the "science" behind it.
It is also a scientific fact that you can "feel" more like woman than a man, whatever body you might have, and vice versa. In the same way as it is a scientific fact that someone can be depressed, or happy. As a person you are more than just your physical body.
So if someone wants to base their gender on how they feel emotionally, or whatever, rather than the body they happen to have, then that's good enough for me. And it cannot be dismissed because it allegedly doesn't comply with scientific requirements, a person's mind is also part of the science imo.
Therefore I clearly reject poah's focus on purely the physical aspect of issue. As you obviously do too, but poah isn't 'making' become angry, you could decide not to be. I assume that poah is just a random stranger to you so I can't see how his opinion about anything should make you feel crap and ashamed of what you are.
Take control of your own emotions instead of leaving it to random people to decide how you should feel, would be my advice.
I am a hunan being with human emotions and feelings and you make me feel so crap and so ashamed of what I am. You are the reason I don’t come here much these days.
Well you know what, you win. I can’t cope with reading your hateful bile anymore.
Don’t stop coming here because of him. You’ve no reason to feel ashamed at all. Don’t let him win, you’re stronger than that. You must carry on informing people of the reality of your existence. These idiots need to learn what it’s like for you and others. Please keep posting.
If someone has issue over science then all I can do is explain it (which I did). People can accept what science is or they can get offended by it but science doesn’t care if you get offended. If someone says to me they have changed sex I’m going to say you haven’t.
No you didn’t you just said because science. Science once told us homosexuality was an illness and yet science tells us that was a ridiculous thing to claim. It’s not the ‘science’ people are offended by, it’s your lack of empathy that some people are different to what you want to believe. I say offended as that’s the word you use.
Boriselbrus don't let him get you down, you can't win them all.
Might be crossing threads a bit having read the 'my builder's a racist' thread (paraphrase) but these are the people to be angry about
and who I worry for my son about on a daily basis, among all the other things. That one day just for living his life someone is going to take exception and punch him in the face or stick a bottle in him, because he's different. Or me even - am I one one of their paedo freaks that they want to destroy? I know it's Australia but it is happening here too, the activist whose speech they were supporting (again, whether you asked for them or not, when these are your security do you not question whether you're on the right side?)
Why post this and raise the anxiety of people like me and Boriselbrus and others who may be working through this privately as well?
Because there are a few on here that are indirectly facilitating this type of thing. If you stand by while this happens, you are tacitly accepting it. Some of them I suspect don't even really care and are probably trolling, OP is distinctly absent since starting 8 pages of discussion, and there are a few that conspicuously go missing when real debate starts. I probably shouldn't rise to it, but trolling or serious, every time you 'accidentally' misgender, or deadname, or ........ these are the kind of people you are starting to align to.
and there are a few that conspicuously go missing when real debate starts
tbf, not everyone works in an office and has all day to spend on STW. So they ‘could’ just be working etc.
these are the kind of people you are starting to align to.
I've said this before on the political threads. You can argue all you like for your 'opinions' and 'beliefs' but if you need an impartial moral steer then just look at who you're aligning with.
Takes a long time to read these threads let alone formulate a coherent meaningful response. Half the time I don't even know what I think. Often feel the urge to react but wouldn't be adding anything that's not better said by others. I'll use the like button.
To be fair you could choose not to be angry.
And you could choose not to spew meaningless platitudes that deny the most basic human emotions and place unfair blame on people; but here we are.
that deny the most basic human emotions
What on earth are you talking about? There is no denial of 'the most basic human emotions'. Just the suggestion that perhaps not let the opinions of random stranger cause someone to 'feel so crap and so ashamed of what they are'.
I don't believe that boriselbrus being ashamed of what they are is an appropriate reaction to poah's comment, you are of course free to disagree and free to encourage boriselbrus to feel ashamed.
Poah's comments wasn't even a personal attack on boriselbrus, just some bollocks about "science".
I would reiterate that boriselbrus should not let poah's comments make them feel crap, ashamed, or angry.
And yes, I believe there is an element of choice, even if you think there is no choice.
But poahs comments aren't an isolated incident, boriselbrus is talking about a lifetime of hearing this ahit from people, of course it's going to take it's toll, it wears people down.
My comment was purely with regards to this:
boriselbrus Full Member
I cannot express how angry you make me.
Apologies for encouraging boriselbrus not to get angry over some nonsense posted by poah.
I should have realised that a comment like that would be totally unacceptable on STW.
It's a weaselly argument with a side order of victim blaming.
We could say, for instance, that 'offence' is something that one takes rather than gives. You choose to be offended. And as far as it goes, I agree with this. (See the comedy stylings of Steve Hughes.) But crucially, that doesn't absolve the offender of any accountability.
If I said, I don't know, "all gays should be drowned at birth" or something, is it then the fault of someone who is gay for getting upset about that? They're choosing to be offended and that's on them? Well, if so then it's a free-for-all on offensive language. A faggot is just a bundle of sticks, p*** is merely a contraction of ****stani, gyppo is slang for a traveller, a trans woman is really a man etc etc and if they don't like it then it's their problem. Right?
Except, it's not, is it. Because the speaker knows full well that they're being insulting and chooses to do it anyway. Which isn't a nice thing to do. And that, my friends, is 100% on them.
I wish I'd been in this thread from the start to digist the discussion (realistically I'm unlikely to read it all through now)
Anyway, fwiw, I've been listening to contrapoints lately as she has brilliant and very balanced opinions on this stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gDKbT_l2us
She's also ****ing hilarious (give it time).
One example I found enlightening: her analysis of the bathroom anxiety thing. I've always thought that, as a cisgender guy, I'm not really in a posistion to disregard the feelings of ciswomen who are worried about the safety of bathrooms if gender reassignment is made much easier. But if I support that argument, I'm being transphobic, so I've just tried to avoid having an opinion.
Contrapoints' response is that the former completly misunderstands how bathrooms actually work. No one asks for your ID when you use a public bathroom (obviously, and no one seems to be proposing this.) How you are treated in a bathroom is instead entirely based upon how you present.
So there are, on the one hand, butch women that have, for many years, complained about being hasseled when using women's bathrooms -- despite having vaginas and having been born as women... On the other hand, there are transwomen that present as entirely feminime who have used women's bathroom for years with zero problems.
That's a pretty good defense of the trans rights side of the bathroom debate, to my mind.
Sports may be more complicated, but I found this really interesting:
But crucially, that doesn’t absolve the offender of any accountability.
You mean poah? Yeah I went into detail concerning why I thought poah's comments were nonsense.
But listen, if you feel that boriselbrus is justified in feeling crap, ashamed, and angry, and consequently not going to post anymore, that's fine. I just don't agree, leave it at that.
What on earth are you talking about? There is no denial of ‘the most basic human emotions’. Just the suggestion that perhaps not let the opinions of random stranger cause someone to ‘feel so crap and so ashamed of what they are’.
The suggestion that anger is a choice is absurd. The logical follow-on from that idea is that it's my own fault for being angry, when it's the other person being an arsehole. The logical follow-on from that is that it's ok to be as shitty as you want, because if the other person gets angry then that's on them. Which is a complete inversion of the social contract we have evolved over the millennia or, to put it another way, breaks rule 1.
If you're a dick towards me, I will get angry. That's a basic human emotion.
There are such things as tact, sensitivity, compassion, and sympathy. All positive concepts, generally. You need to deploy these to avoid upsetting others. If you simply can't be bothered, then that's shit.
I find it odd/off that people seem to be able to argue about the definition of male/female and where that line is drawn (or that there even is a line, and its true there are some limited outliers and exceptions), but if you were to pull that with race, it wouldnt wash for a moment.
where race clearly IS a gradient. you can be partly one thing and partly another, you can be a muddy grey in the middle, you can have traces of all sort of a heritage.
But apparently someone somewhere decides that someone can be "not black enough"
It is perfectly possible to be part Asian or half Scottish or whatever, but when it comes to blackness in the USA it's got a slightly different context because of the different laws they had in the past. In that case, "one iota" of 'black' blood meant you were legally black, because they needed a definition for legal purposes. That divided society, obviously, and the black half had a long history of oppression for reasons the white half didn't experience. Then black and white culture were also segregated - so claiming to be black has some significant problems in the way that claiming to be for example Irish doesn't.
You mean poah? Yeah I went into detail concerning why I thought poah’s comments were nonsense.
I was talking generally rather than directing that at any specific individual.
But listen, if you feel that boriselbrus is justified in feeling crap, ashamed, and angry, and consequently not going to post anymore, that’s fine. I just don’t agree, leave it at that.
I think they're perfectly justified and that's where we'll have to agree to differ.
I'd rather they didn't have to feel that way just as you do, "ignore the dickhead" is sage advice. But it's not always that easy and it's not our place to tell them their feelings are invalid or wrong.
Feeling "crap, ashamed, and angry" is all the more reason to post, otherwise the bullies win. I can only hope that BB is strong enough to carry on posting, their contributions are invaluable.
.
Ok so now I've scrolled back far enough:
If someone says to me they have changed sex I’m going to say you haven’t.
Why? Why do you have to say anything? Why can't you just let it go?
so claiming to be black has some significant problems in the way that claiming to be for example Irish doesn’t.
TBF there's at least one place I can think of where calling yourself Irish or not could provoke a lively debate...
I once said to a Chicagoan friend, "every American I've ever met claims to be one quarter Scottish." She replied "hey, I'm a quarter Scottish!" QED, hon. 😁
I was generally talking about the USA, where it seems rather less consequential than choosing a football team.
So despite my best intentions I came back to look at the thread.
Firstly, my heartfelt thanks for the support. It really is appreciated.
Regarding the anger thing, yes, theoretically I could choose to not get angry but that requires a level of resilience which I just don't have at the moment. I've fought this every hour of every day for 50 years now and I am so, so tired. I'm tired mentally, emotionally and physically and there comes a point when you are too tired to fight anymore.
I was thinking back to a thread of a year or ago so looked back and found it:
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/non-binary/
In that thread was a massive debate about whether Non-Binary even exists. Many people including our favourite scientist came out with the usual stuff about chromosomes and genitals and it just makes me think "what is the point". Hungary, Poland and now Italy are pushing back against very hard won LGBT etc rights. Trump pretty much closed off the USA, Bolsonaro did the same in Brazil. There are countries in the Middle East and Africa where I would be imprisoned and possibly executed just for being me. The rights of women are being eroded in Afghanistan.
But here's the problem. Whilst it's abhorrent that the rights of women and gays are being eroded, at least the cavemen agree they actually exist. What chance do I have when scientists and teachers are telling the world that my identity doesn't exist? Non binary people are not even recognised in UK law https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9515/ Although for employment law it's technically covered as a protected characteristic.
Unfortunately the bullies always win in the end. it's like batting vs bowling. The batter can have a good innings and even get on top for while, but they have to "win" every single ball. If they drop their guard or lose concentration for a split second then they'll smack one straight up in the air or glove it through to the keeper. The bowler stays on the field to attack the next victim, and the batter slinks off to the dressing room.
This batter is out. I can't do this anymore.
“They’ve hired a person”
(some time later)
Hi there, I heard from colleagues that in a meeting a while ago before I started that you referred to me as a person”.
This caused me deep offence because my chosen protected characteristics are that of a hamster and I therefore should have been addressed by you as “they’ve hired a cricetinae”.
As this caused me emotional stress I have reported your hate-speech to HR for further investigation.
HR have agreed that if you resign now and write a company-wide email copying in your family and friends accepting that you are bigot I’ve agreed to withdraw my complaint.
I've been out out of this since page one, but what the f__k are you talking about?
