If sometimes you use a title or pronoun, then try to use the right one.
Well, quite. Someone at work is 6'2", strongly built and has a five o'clock shadow. They prefer gender neutral pronouns. I don't understand why but it's their choice and all it requires of me is a little bit of thought.
Those people may have a perfectly valid but totally irrelevant argument – if sometimes you use a title or pronoun, then try to use the right one. If someone asks you to use something different learn from it rather than joining a culture war.
I generally agree with you, but I draw the line at titles that are designed to put others in an inferior position or are just spooky. I always call my GP "doctor" because they earned it, but I'm not calling anyone "your highness" or "Father". Admittedly this has never, ever arisen in real life for me...
They prefer gender neutral pronouns. I don’t understand why but it’s their choice and all it requires of me is a little bit of thought.
Totally agree, you should respect his choice of pronoun or title. However why not tell him you in turn wish to be known as "the almighty one".
Silly yes, attention seeking yes, but he started it. It should cut both ways.
I work in an office with a large % of millennials and younger. I have encountered none of the things your on about.
Ive spent the last 15 years working in a research institute thats been part of large universities
We have quite a few students in the lab too
I also have encountered none of this (we had one non-binary person in my las lab, they were pretty chill about the pronoun thing)
Totally agree, you should respect his choice of pronoun or title. However why not tell him you in turn wish to be known as “the almighty one”.
It's "they", not "him".
but if people muck it up there is no good reason to vilify them either.
I agree
but if people don’t want to, there is no good reason to vilify them either.
I disagree
Maybe not vilify, but the lack of decency in respecting someone's choices makes me sad.
However why not tell him you in turn wish to be known as “the almighty one”.
If you really want to, but to me comes in the same category as people who insist that 'all lives matter'. They know why someone's pronouns are important to them really and they're just IMHO being a bit of a dick about it by insisting they identify as a unicorn or want to be known as Almighty One.
Totally agree, you should respect his choice of pronoun or title. However why not tell him you in turn wish to be known as “the almighty one”.
It’s “they”, not “him”.
It's "them" not "they".
With the pronoun thing, if the English language could accomadate a phrase that fitted in more easily, both grammatically and phoneticaly then I’m not so sure it would be so contentious.
We already have perfectly serviceable words. The only reason it's "contentious" is because some people want to use language as an excuse to punch down on a minority.
I’m all for your interpretation molgrips, However the problem is if you want to take science out ofd it,
No, the problem is that you only want to listen to the "science" which aligns with your opinion.
Maybe neither of these usages is designed to impress you?
I’m neither impressed or unimpressed. I just think there should be a better word for it tbh. I do love when impotent angry folk extend it though. Wokerati being a favourite.
No, the problem is that you only want to listen to the “science” which aligns with your opinion.
So the science matters to you, but not to molgrips, which is it?
This is just a constant moving of the goalposts to align with your opinion. This is projection on your part,
There is no scientific proof that you can change bio sex, or that you are born in the wrong body. None.
As I said I have no objection to the way people dress, present themselves, have sex whatever.
But you cannot force me to accept a concept I know to false.
What has "Ladies & Gentlemen, Boys and Girls - thank you for coming and welcome to the annual school prize giving ceremony" been replaced with?
"Hello"?
But you cannot force me to accept a concept I know to false.
We cannot force you to accept a concept you believe to be false.
... also,
For all your crying about science, no scientist worth their salt would ever be bold enough to proclaim that they know anything absolutely. There is a reason that science uses the word "theory." Even if you weren't flat out wrong, something might come along tomorrow which presents new evidence.
As Dara O'Briain once said, "Science doesn't know everything. But science knows that it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop."
been replaced with?
“Welcome everybody, and thanks for coming…”
For all your crying about science, no scientist worth their salt would ever be bold enough to proclaim that they know anything absolutely. There is a reason that science uses the word “theory.” Even if you weren’t flat out wrong, something might come along tomorrow which presents new evidence.
The fact that you would dare to say this means you have not bothered to comprehend a single thing I have written, it show either ridiculous bias for your concept or intellectual dishonesty.
EG
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”.
and
There is no evidence of a biological sex change, you would have to re-write their DNA. every single cell. (I’m not saying it might not be possible in the future)
You are letting your bias and rhetoric get in the way of your argument and discussion.
It’s interesting that some people can be willing to hide behind DNA in a way others would hide behind religious doctrine to justify their own personal mistrust and lack of acceptance towards people they can’t empathise with. Just be kind and try.
1. I work with teenagers including a small minority of students who prefer different pronouns to those that they had originally. You know what, this 50 year old manages it just fine. Yes - I had to rewire some of my ingrained unthinking assumptions and speech patterns and yes I made the odd mistake along the way. But it's all good.
2. Kids in the broader community - they handle it just fine. It's totally a non issue.
3. I attended an interesting talk last year - discussing the fact that this might be an interim phase. Basically when we are born and get to an age when we understand ourselves a bit we enter a world full of stereotypes. Our physical and chemical makeup comes with some very significant conscious and unconscious expectations about our future lives - how we might want to behave, who it might be considered conventional to be attracted to, basically where will be placed in the world. The narrative was that as these conventions, expectations and blunt stereotypes are eroded (and the unspoken subtext here was eroded probably equalled the old ****ers in the room shuffled off this mortal coil) the concept of gender beyond the biological will melt away and with that many of the triggers for gender dysphoria. I think that's a world I could happily live in.
But you cannot force me to accept a concept I know to false.
Can you provide the evidence it’s false, I mean you must have scientific proof.
@convert - Points 1 and 2, bang on, and 3, I have seen a ted talk like video on that same topic. Was very informative.
@drac Can you provide the evidence it’s false, I mean you must have scientific proof.
You cannot prove a negative. Do I need to quote Russell?
(I know you know this, I think you are just pissing about?)
Now I can’t decide if you deliberately being obtuse, thick or trolling.
Ah! Now you’ve used Wikipedia as your source.
The fact that you would dare to say this means you have not bothered to comprehend a single thing I have written, it show either ridiculous bias for your concept or intellectual dishonesty.
Oh, I understand alright.
Let me put this to you then: What would it take to change your mind?
Oh, I understand alright.
So this doesn't sound like you have made your mind up in advance at all.
Ah! Now you’ve used Wikipedia as your source.
Not source, as a reference, it is easier than finding out your address and sending a google maps link to your local library. If think you can oppose the last 500 years of thought by proving a negative, go ahead. I'm not going to bother entering into a discussion about it. You are going up against Sagan, Russell, and everything before.
Oh dear me.
Go on then, prove a negative.
If you’re using Russell at least use him in full context. His theory actually goes against your beliefs that it’s not possible. His theory is if we’d been historically told something then we don’t change our minds.
Unicorns don’t exist. No one has ever seen one, there is no physical evidence of them existing. There you go.
Unicorns don’t exist. No one has ever seen one, there is no physical evidence of them existing. There you go.
TBF that doesn't actually prove anything. But neither does it need to, "Unicorns don't exist" is the null hypothesis and the onus is to prove that unicorns do exist. That's my understanding anyway...
TBF that doesn’t actually prove anything. But neither does it need to, “Unicorns don’t exist” is the null hypothesis and the onus is to prove that unicorns do exist. That’s my understanding anyway…
Exactly.
Not at all. They don’t exist and there is no evidence they ever have. Even if there’s many stories telling us they do and did, they simply don’t.
Not at all. They don’t exist and there is no evidence they ever have. Even if there’s many stories telling us they do and did, they simply don’t.
Exactly, to prove a negative, people will ask you to prove unicorns do not exist, there is no evidence that they do not exist (because there is no evidence full stop, you cant show evidence of the non-unicorn).
You have not proven a negative, you have just shown that there is no evidence for the positive (yet).
The same as there is no evidence that you can be born in the wrong body (yet).
You asked
Can you provide the evidence it’s false, I mean you must have scientific proof.
The answer is no, because there is no evidence that it is true. Same as unicorns.
The answer is no, because there is no evidence that it is true. Same as unicorns.
Based on old beliefs of if you have vag you’re a girl and if you have a willy you’re a boy. Then there’s the outdated X and Y gene theory too. Like Russell says you’re basing it on what you’ve always been told and believed. You have evidence that you’re right.
No, that is your assumption about what I think is the state of knowledge.
Also you are unclear about if you refer to bio sex or "born in the wrong body", you had answered to my statement about born in the wrong body but now it seems you are rereferring to bio sex.
there is no evidence that you can be born in the wrong body.
define evidence?
Is my son's absolute, deeprooted unhappiness with his AFAB identity, and his slow but daily improvement as the treatments he is now on to masculinise his body start to have an effect - not evidence of some sort? If not then what are we seeing, how do you characterise what is happening?
Yeah definitely trolling.
Is my son’s absolute, deeprooted unhappiness with his AFAB identity, and his slow but daily improvement as the treatments he is now on to masculinise his body start to have an effect – not evidence of some sort? If not then what are we seeing, how do you characterise what is happening?
You seem to think that your sons existence and experience are being denied.
I don't deny it at all.
Where's the OP gone? I want to hear more stories about folk changing into their little barista outfits and playing rock/paper/scissors.
Is disappoint.
Getting away from the delightful pedantry of a language discussion for a minute:
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”.
Have you addressed Guevedoces? Surely that must come under the definition of being born in the wrong body?
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981
Of course, arguably, most were born in the right body as the majority live out their lives as men but some choose to 'become' women.
This is just one example of just how complicated biology can be and how little we still understand of it.
I know you are going to come up with an explanation of how this doesn't meet your criteria for 'evidence' but I am interested in hearing just how you are going to justify disregarding it.
The problem with this issue is that we can't discuss it without people making accusations of hate or prejudice etc. when in fact many, me included are very interested in the phenomena of gender dysphoria and want to understand it as much as anyone.
Answer this then, what does born in the wrong body mean? Can you define it?
So this doesn’t sound like you have made your mind up in advance at all.
Well done in picking up on the trivial bit of that post and completely ignoring the actual point. Here it is again:
Let me put this to you then: What would it take to change your mind?
men but some choose to ‘become’ women.
Can they be both or neither? Or some other definition? Do we need to define them at all?
Answer this then, what does born in the wrong body mean? Can you define it?
It's a medical condition whereby the body doesn't produce the hormones the brain requires in order to function normally leading to life-threatening symptoms such as depression, dissociation, etc. This can cause severe social problems and sometimes ends with suicide.
I can't describe what it must feel like because I have absolutely no idea. However, just because I have no idea what someone else feels doesn't mean I disregard those feelings.
Are unicorns the new black swans?
