As someone who gets called a TERF on a regular basis I have a bit of ambivalence towards all of this.
I do not see it as that hard to try to call people whatever they want.
However I also do not think people should get in trouble for , getting it wrong, or even wanting to stick to their norms.
I think people (on both sides) are a too soft and get offended to easily. One persons offence is not a good enough reason to fire someone (if it happens, well it has happened, but not often).
I do not see it as that hard to try to call people whatever they want.
It can be difficult for some, just show willing and try.
wanting to stick to their norms
What does that mean?
However I also do not think people should get in trouble for , getting it wrong, or even wanting to stick to their norms.
And what if their "norm" is to use racist terms?
It can be difficult for some, just show willing and try.
That is the same point I made, it isn't hard to try, it might be hard to achieve it though....
Sticking to norms means that some people want to use gendered language. I don't mind if they do.
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be "born in the wrong body". Otherwise I'd like to claim I should have been born in Elon Musks body. I don't see any evidence that hormones and surgery can change your bio sex (but I'll defend your right to have that surgery and hormones if you want, it should be a free world). That's my norm, I'll call you whatever pronoun you want. You wear what you want, have sex with who you want. I treat men and women the same so I'm not going to treat anyone any different based on gender or sex. I can pretend that men are women and women are men. I'm happy to do that at work or in places where it is important (most public spaces).
But if my friends ask me to tell my truth, that's what it is. That's my norm.
I still don't have an issue with pronouns, the are all constructed anyway, who cares.
And what if their “norm” is to use racist terms?
Persuade them it is racist and persuade them why racism is wrong/harmful etc.
I wonder how this pronoun and woke business is going to filter into industries like construction.
I was sitting in a Travelodge eating breakfast this morning (crappy work thing) in Manchester. A quick glance around and there is about 40-50 rough looking men (stubble, in worn work trousers, hoodies and work boots). Obviously all working away doing construction work (I used to be one of them). I can't imagine that most of them even know - or care about - what a pronoun is never mind what one they would like to addressed by.
It’s great to include everyone and I’m all for people doing whatever the hell they want as long as it’s not hurting anyone. If referring to someone in a certain way helps make their life easier or better then I’ll do my best to comply with that request. I may unintentionally forget from time to time. I forget names and birthdays already.
I’m just so glad that I personally don’t give a shit what anyone refers to me as. Seems like it’s just adding an extra layer of stress to life.
It would be a lot easier if they/them was used for everyone all the time then no second guessing, no getting anything wrong etc,. and it is what I try to do.
It was perfectly normal for Shakespeare to do that.
I’ve always, in the past, addressed a bunch of people I worked with as ‘morning, guys’, but but now it’s just ‘’mornin’ folks’, and that works for everyone.
As for myself, you can call me anything you want, just don’t call me late for lunch..
Michael FFS
Sorry jondough
Don't Google Finnish dead baby jokes! I did and wish I hadn't, I thought they'd be dark but my god....
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”.
Well, no. You're called a TERF (or are self-identifying as one) because you've had this explained to you multiple times over and you refuse to challenge your own entrenched opinion.
And now you're in danger of derailing the thread. Such as it is.
I wonder how this pronoun and woke business is going to filter into industries like construction.
I was sitting in a Travelodge eating breakfast this morning (crappy work thing) in Manchester. A quick glance around and there is about 40-50 rough looking men (stubble, in worn work trousers, hoodies and work boots). Obviously all working away doing construction work (I used to be one of them). I can’t imagine that most of them even know – or care about – what a pronoun is never mind what one they would like to addressed by.
Go work with them for a day, refer to them all as "she" and "her." Report back here and let us know how much they didn't care once you get out of hospital.
Don’t Google Finnish dead baby jokes! I did and wish I hadn’t,
But you've started so you'll Finnish?
nicko74
Full Member
I really CBA with this woke nonsense, but THISsupernova
Full Member
I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE! It’s “couldn’t care less”, you absolute unmentionable. Begone foul fiend!
Well that’s embarrassing. Doh!
David Bowie was woke before anyone even knew what the term meant!
:focal(2183x1455:2184x1456)/ <a class=)
Persuade them it is racist and persuade them why racism is wrong/harmful etc.
But if they don't want to change, they shouldn't get into trouble?
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”
40-50 rough looking men (stubble, in worn work trousers, hoodies and work boots). Obviously all working away doing construction work (I used to be one of them). I can’t imagine that most of them even know – or care about – what a pronoun is
On one hand, I agree that a lot of this discussion is student politics bullshit that doesn't really matter in The Real World. But on the other hand, it's not like all trans (or LGBTQ+, or whatever) people are all upper class, or that all construction workers are inconsiderate cavemen. (I'm not suggesting you are saying this - just that I don't see why the "debate" would be any more or less relevant for construction than paper supplies or motor insurance).
Just ignore the far-Left language police, they're all mad
The simplest of searches, even on singletrack, would have shown that this is a pronoun thread, not the pronoun thread
Maybe the OP was hoping it would endure and become the definite article....
Well, no. You’re called a TERF (or are self-identifying as one) because you’ve had this explained to you multiple times over and you refuse to challenge your own entrenched opinion.
And now you’re in danger of derailing the thread. Such as it is.
Well, luckily only a few people think like you do and the world is waking up to some basic facts.
I hope that pronouns and the whole woke thing will lead to a revolution in how people dress, and present themselves as I agree with the freedom for people to present themselves how they like. I don't think you really understand it Cougar hence the resorting to insult sarcasm and even some implied violence above. You've run out of argument.
It isn't derailing the thread, the topic of pronouns and gender critical types are intrinsically the same.
TINAS - nothing about that article suggest that they were "born in the wrong body" they are born in the body they are born in end of story. They do show a difference from the norm. Is a downs syndrome person born in the wrong body? And nothing in that article shows that hormones and surgery can change those peoples sex.
They don't fit the classic gender binary, but it would be barbaric to treat them with surgery and hormones to "correct" them. As it won't work. They are what they are, lets accept them. The other quoted there seems to accept her own child.
The child’s mother said she could see the transformation starting from the age of five, adding: “I love her however she is. Girl or boy, it makes no difference."
“On the other hand, in the Dominican Republic, the birth of a pseudohermaphrodite is fully accepted and during puberty, the child’s physical transformation into a male is marked by joyous celebration.”
I'm not trans exclusionary, I just have not seen evidence that anyone can be born in the wrong bod or can change bio sex. I'm perfectly happy for adults to have surgery, hormones and challenge our speech and understanding of appearance. its all good. But facts are facts. It doesn't change the rights of people to do what they like.
But if they don’t want to change, they shouldn’t get into trouble?
Depends. using race to refuse service, job etc should be legally enforced, but you cannot legally force someone to change the way they think. That is pretty barbaric. I have never seen any evidence that race (whatever that means, skin colour, origin, I don't think race actually exists right?) correlates with ability in the mental field - ie academic, work etc. Thus there is no logical reason to be racist expect for some form of prejudice/hate. In civilised society it has no place. But in civilised society we have to be tolerant. Otherwise you become a fascist. Some on the left are approaching the fascism we typically see on the right.
Just ignore the far-Left language police, they’re all mad
Come on love, we're only joking.
So using race to refuse service, job etc should be legally enforced, but you cannot legally force someone to change the way they think. That is pretty barbaric.
We were talking about what somebody might say, stop shifting the goalposts.
Well, luckily only a few people think like you do and the world is waking up to some basic facts.
They're... becoming woke?
I’m not trans exclusionary, I just have not seen evidence that anyone can be born in the wrong bod or can change bio sex.
Do you dismiss everything that you don't have first-hand evidence of?
Do you dismiss everything that you don’t have first-hand evidence of?
You are not gonna make an argument for faith are you? This is the basics of the scientific method. Ordered observations of the evidence.
There is no evidence of a biological sex change, you would have to re-write their DNA. every single cell. (I'm not saying it might not be possible in the future)
Not being able to change bio sex should not take anything away from people who want to take hormones and surgery to change their appearance, let them do it. But you cannot force people to believe that a real change in fundamental bio sex has been made. That's some 1984 stuff right there.
The point I am trying to make is that there is no good reason not to respect peoples pro-noun requirements, it is basically easy, but if people muck it up or don't want to, there is no good reason to vilify them either.
Since this thread has a a language vibe how can one become woke? It’s a past tense. Surely people are waking up or awake. This shit annoys me and I have no idea why! I’m guessing it originated in America because language massacring ****s.
You are not gonna make an argument for faith are you?
I was thinking more something like quantum physics, round Earth or the existence of kangaroos. I didn't list an example because I couldn't really think of a good one that wouldn't immediately become a target to be pulled apart. If you thought I was going to argue in favour of faith then you haven't read many of my posts over the years.
This is the basics of the scientific method. Ordered observations of the evidence.
That's not how the scientific method works, you don't get biologists calling out astronomers, or plasterers calling out microbiologists.
It is simply not possible to understand everything on this planet or beyond. And that's OK. So the things we don't understand, we defer to experts in their fields rather than decrying everything they're telling us because we haven't seen it.
Since this thread has a a language vibe how can one become woke? It’s a past tense.
Is it not possible to become awakened?
TINAS – nothing about that article suggest that they were “born in the wrong body” they are born in the body they are born in end of story. They do show a difference from the norm. Is a downs syndrome person born in the wrong body?
Do you apply that logic by going upto everyone with a disability and claiming they're faking it because you can't perceive it first hand?
Is it not possible to become awakened?
No, that’s a past participle. You can be awakened but you can’t become awakened, that would be awake. I was awakened by the sound of pronouns everywhere! I am now awake. So right now nobody is woke they are awake. Bastard stupid word. Up there with fake news, just sounds like a ****ing idiot saying it. Like one of those ****ers who says myself instead of me.
You can’t be woke right now, it’s happened in the past. You were woke but not anymore!
Now you’re awake after having an awakening.
See! Look what it’s doing to me 😂
Times change
Some people struggle to adapt to it, but language, culture & it seems pronouns are dynamic
Otherwise we'd all be addressing each other as
thisisnotaspoon Esquire. (OK technically that's a postnoun)
Or Goodwife Cougar....
Pronouns aren't just about trans people, plenty of people consider themselves non-binary, I think as much as anything this is a push back against gender norms young'uns are bombarded with:
The majority of us will never look like the contestants on Love Island, I can't imagine what it's like to be a teen growing up in the Instagram world bombarded by impossibly sculpted influencers & porn stars they see 24/7 on their phones & computers
No wonder the 'youth' don't want to conform to those impossible idealised gender stereotypes.
The anti-trans debate is something else, but the 2 things are conflated in the 'pronoun wars'
And so much of the anti-trans movement has echoes of 70s homophobia- it took many people a long time to accept that people could be gay, some people have never accepted it.
Since this thread has a a language vibe how can one become woke? It’s a past tense.
Because has at least three different meanings in different variants of English:
- African American Vernacular English, where it means awakened to the real state of things in the polity
- "standard" American English, where it has come to mean a predeliction to self-evidently ludicrous, fashionable political beliefs
- many other varients of English where it simply is a past participle of wake
"stay woke"...or maybe "stay fishy"
You can be awakened but you can’t become awakened
Is it not possible to become awakened to something?
isn’t woke in that meaning an adjective or a noun rather than a verb? a new word with a meaning separate from the past tense of wake.
what annoys me about it is that it implies that the woke were ignorant of the plight of others before their awakening.
what i love about it is that it how much the concept it defines upsets people.
I woke up 30 mins ago and will do the same in the morning.
I know that in some Polynesian societies they have a third gender, callad fafana or something similar, (theres a great film about a trans footballer from American Samoa calld "Last Goal Wins")
With the pronoun thing, if the English language could accomadate a phrase that fitted in more easily, both grammatically and phoneticaly then I'm not so sure it would be so contentious.
It's hard to impose language on people, language develops of its' own accord, people tend to adopt words because they fit or flow easily, we'll either get used to the 'they' thing or we'll come up with something else that sounds better.
We'll get there in the end....
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”.
Hmm. People all around you are trying to explain how they feel about themselves, and you are denying their feelings and experiences. You might want to have a think about how important your sense of scientific rectitude actually is in this context. As users of human languages, we try to assemble words that describe how we feel. This is pretty difficult, generally, and to be really good at it requires uncommon mastery. So we tend to use simple phrases to express concepts that are complex and personal. So I don't think it's worth trying to reduce the phrase 'born in the wrong body' to its most basic interpretation.
Now, I'm sure you know this. Clearly we employ figurative speech and metaphor every day. I think that you just don't like this idea. Ok, fine; but it's not about you. It's about the people who suffer from this issue. They feel that there is a problem with the way society views them.
I'm a sciency person, but there is really no value in trying to reduce people's ideas about themselves, their personality and their view of themselves to cellular biology. I absolutely believe that these things come from the brain ultimately, but that's something we still know **** all about, really.
This is the basics of the scientific method. Ordered observations of the evidence.
Yes, and the fact there are millions of people all over the world talking about this issue is pretty good evidence of a phenomenon of some kind. I don't see anything anti-scientific going on here - except by the people who are trying to deny the the concept of being trans.
I was thinking more something like quantum physics, round Earth or the existence of kangaroos. I didn’t list an example because I couldn’t really think of a good one that wouldn’t immediately become a target to be pulled apart.
What you're thinking of is commonly referred to as the black swan phenomenon.
Yes, and the fact there are millions of people all over the world talking about this issue is pretty good evidence of a phenomenon of some kind. I don’t see anything anti-scientific going on here – except by the people who are trying to deny the the concept of being trans.
Billions of people talk about god. Is that evidence of the existence of god?
I'm all for your interpretation molgrips, However the problem is if you want to take science out ofd it, then why is science being used to attempt to convert these people from one sex to another? And others will try and use science to say you can change someone's sex.
Gender is a sociological construct, normally based on bio sex.
People feel they don't fit in to that socio norm, I agree with them if that's what they feel, and I don't care what they do and how they behave, Why do we need to be thought policed about the bio sex part? You are saying that the science doesn't matter, so fine, don't try and convince me that it does.
plenty of people consider themselves non-binary
I do and so does my wife. Nearing our 60s we don't feel particularly like either gender or see the point of gender so we would say we are non-binary in that sense.
isn’t woke in that meaning an adjective or a noun rather than a verb? a new word with a meaning separate from the past tense of wake.
what annoys me about it is that it implies that the woke were ignorant of the plight of others before their awakening.
what i love about it is that it how much the concept it defines upsets people.
I think this is where I’m coming from. It’s a fantastic thing. I think it just needs a better word for it. For some reason it just sounds a bit dumb to me. Funny when right wing nutters whinge about it yet doesn’t do the issues at the heart of it justice. Just my opinion of course. Like incorrect use of myself it just makes people using it come across as a bit dense to me.
I can’t help wondering OP, given all the comments here, why you have started a thread in the bike forum with the words “Hi Guys” …
Deliberate trolling or just thoughtless?
I think it just needs a better word for it. For some reason it just sounds a bit dumb to me...it just makes people using it come across as a bit dense to me.
There are lots of Englishes in the world. AAVE is not (I assume) your English, and the use of woke is grammatically regular there.
Woke in Standard American English (i.e. as it has been co-opted by the right) is used precisely because it is non-grammatical and jarring - it's supposed to suggest the thinking behind it is dissonant and perverse (and African-American).
Maybe neither of these usages is designed to impress you?
Edit: mildly amusing video of anti-woke warrior failing to define what "woke" means halfway down this article: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/16/woke-definition-conservatives-us
https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy
The point I am trying to make is that there is no good reason not to respect peoples pro-noun requirements, it is basically easy, but if people muck it up or don’t want to, there is no good reason to vilify them either.
It’s a little bit like being in a room full of professors. If you call them all prof nobody will give you a prize. If you call them all Dr, someone may correct you but nobody will really care, but if you call the men Prof and the women Dr or Mrs you can expect to piss people off. If someone corrects you and you continue to do it then you are the problem. If that’s accidental, recognise you have an inherent bias, appologise and try harder. If you do it intentionally, either to make a point or cause hurt, then vilify away. Inevitably someone will try to turn that argument around to why anyone should be called prof, and some sort of class or status war. Those people may have a perfectly valid but totally irrelevant argument - if sometimes you use a title or pronoun, then try to use the right one. If someone asks you to use something different learn from it rather than joining a culture war. If someone gets your name or title wrong, if you think they did it intentionally making a drama out of it is probably what they wanted.
