[Closed] The Orient - Racist?

Panama is in central america.

And George bush referred to nelson mandelaa
s african american

I've always believed "Asian" (Indian / ****stani) and "Oriental" (Chinese /Japanese) to be safe terms. You wouldn't blink at someone suggesting that a vase had obvious "oriental influences" in its design. But now this is offensive? We're running out of adjectives

On the contrary, we have plenty of adjectives, we should use them rather then reductively using only two. Even if it were tru that the average Brit could not distinguish between Thai and Chinese this is a culpapble ignorance. If you cannot tell the difference between Indian and ****stani, then take the time to find out what distinguishes these people from others and unites them or is at least more specific.if the specificity is not important, then you might need to inspect why you are using a racial adjective at all. South Asian,, east Asian, south east Asian are all better.

But seeing as your average Brit is a nationalistic narrow minded buffoon with an interest in the outside world that is almost comparable to Americans then I'm perhaps inclined to agree that you are right.

So you are saying this about British people, would you say the same about any other nation ? Norwegians perhaps ? you do realise by saying your average Brit, that this must now include all people of all origins, colours and sexual orientation or are you just referring to your own prejudiced view of what you consider the average Brit to be.

Some people may consider this to be racist

Words themselves are not racist. It's the intent and context behind them.

if you were to group a Canadian, an Englishman, a Welshman, a German, would you tell the difference?

Of course you could, the Welshman would be spectacularly handsome, witty, generous and with a panting supermodel on each arm 😉

Words themselves are not racist. It's the intent and context behind them.

Of course words are not racist, though they can be loaded with racist overtones, or carry some linguistic baggage. In this case racist seems to be the wrong term, it is perhaps being used as a short cut for racially insensitive or ignorant. There is no malice behind waht is being said, however there are clearly some cases where little ffort is made to find out about our compatriots.

Try this, if you cannot tell the difference between Indian or ****stani, then say 'either Indian or ****stani' though i struggle to thiink of a phrase where such a description is useful.

@pigface, those aren't supermodels, they are policemen, you're just too drunk to see properly

As above, the term is context sensitive, it may be heard as racist to Septics, but isn't here.

But to pick an argument:

If you can't recognize the difference between a Chinese person and a Thai you've got something seriously wrong with your brains facial recognition circuits

that's absolute tosh. A northern Thai from Chiang Rai will be much closer physically to a Chinese from Yunnan (say), than the Yunnanese from someone from Beijing. Have a look at the map. China is the size of old W Europe, with all the internal diversity that involves. Oriental covers it fine.

What you're saying there, Moses is that the statement "If you can't recognize the difference between a Chinese person and a Thai you've got something seriously wrong with your brains facial recognition circuits" is itself racist, as it's assuming a uniformity which doesn't exist? 😆

my local Chinese (run by Chinese people born in China) is called the Oriental Palace.

You wouldn't blink at someone suggesting that a vase had obvious "oriental influences" in its design

Apparently this is okay as (according to some commentators) "oriental" can be used to describe an object but not a person.
(See also: "Scotch")

Personally I had no idea anyone considered "oriental" to be offensive.

The trouble is that the "offence" is often derived from local social baggage and loaded meanings.

If someone from a country which understands that context uses the word then they are probably being a bit racist, but if someone from a country outside of that context uses it innocently then there is honestly no real harm done.

Such is the difficulty of worldwide non-verbal communication.

I went to South African a couple of years ago and was working alongside a local of Sri Lankan origin. He used the word "coloured" to describe fellow countrymen without any seeming racist overtone or intent. If I as a white person used that term in parts of London I'd have to put my sprinting shoes on first! Language use and localised inferences are a funny thing.

I wonder if "oriental" has colonial overtones to some, hence the racist connotations?

And are the indigenous peoples really so different on either side ?

I think your question should have been 'Were the indigenous peoples really so different on either side when the terms were coined?'

To which my answer would be I've no idea. Have you?

Can I just point out that trying to determine someones nationality by looking at them is pretty pointless. Children get their nationality from their parents, irrespective of where they are born. But those children can have their nationality changed before themselves having children. So, a 100% (e.g.) Chinese looking person might actually be Japanese.

You can probably determine their race, but then you'd better not say it for fear of being branded a racists. Unless they are Caucasian, that one's fine still.

Yes Tucker you are right - as someone else pointed out ethnic lines blur as well - eg yunnan and Northern Thailand.....

.....what I was trying to get at is the idea that all Asians look the same.....they don't. I've grown tired of the "they all look the same" jokes. You can make educated guesses for fun even if you don't announce them to the world...

I wonder if "oriental" has colonial overtones to some, hence the racist connotations?

Yes that's pretty much it. Some Chinese I've met don't like the word because they associate it with the opium wars. Generally I just try to to behave and use language that is acceptable in the company of whoever I'm speaking to, it doesn't take much groundwork to know what does bother different ethnic groups....for example don't call Japanese people Japs to their faces. The best thing to do though is just to avoid all racial language as much as possible when speaking to people from different backgrounds.

Just basic courtesy that's all.

orientalism? said? I could so go off on one. but here's this instead...

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/vietnam/china-restaurant-02252013204624.html

You'll also meet people who use pejorative language for white people or foreigners...gaijin being a great one but I like to think the ignorance of others is no excuse to behave the same way yourself.

Secondly my comments about Brits are bourne out of utter frustration from hearing things like "chinky" being used to describe my missus on nights out. It's bad enough your being racist, it's a double insult to mix Chinese and Filipino up.

Unless they are Caucasian, that one's fine still.

That's a typical caucer thing to say.

TuckerUK - Member

Not really. The land mass Eurasia is split into two distinct continents separated by a mountain range (the Urals), because the indigenous peoples were so different on either side.

The Urals don't split europe and asia, though, they only go part of the way. And in any case the divide between the two has wandered around over the years, sometimes along real lines and sometimes along imagined ones. What you describe isn't a continental divide but a cultural divide- which is no less a real thing.

Having lived in Asia (not the Orient 😀 ) for most of my adult life, it always raises a wry smile when I see a lot of handwringing angst from westerners about racist language.

Why, because in my experience the Asians themselves don't see treating people differently purely based on race as being that strange. In fact, I'd have to say that the Chinese in particular are the most racist people I've ever met. Let me qualify that - its not in a loutish ignorant abusive way like a football fan calling a black player names, but in a more pervasive and institutionalised way. Which is actually more worrying. For example, my identity card contained a numerical code of my racial origins, and my citizenship rights were different accordingly, and would never change no matter how long I lived there - I was different to them, and always would be! This is something that would never be tolerated in the west, where we don't even have to answer questions on race in an official census if we don't want to.

But perhaps even more sinister, there is a deep seated cultural belief amongst the Chinese that they are simply superior to the rest of us, and they believe it is only a matter of time that this is universally recognised. Now, ignorant name calling I can brush off, but a latent superiority complex is scary, especially considering that China is entirely likely to be the next world superpower.

By the way, they're not above ignorant name calling either - in Hong Kong westerners are casually referred to as Gweilo, which roughly translates as foreign devil ghost, and my Chinese secretary used to cheerily greet me each morning at work by calling me a round eyed pig, which is the Chinese equivalent of us calling them slitty eyed - Prince Philip would have been in his element!

At least most of this was done in good humour though, whilst they reserved their worst verbal insults and outright prejudiced behaviour for south Asians and Africans - and that's what has got a lot of them worried about the rise of Chinese economic power and nationalism.

Anyway, before I get too carried away on my soapbox, the purpose of all this is not to justify racism, but just that I wouldn't get too upset whether you call someone Asian or Oriental, because they'll be sure to be calling you something much worse under their breath 😕

If you are Chinese then you are Chinese regardless of where you are. You consider yourself Chinese first then the nationality second.

Categories of Chinese:
1. Chinese Chinese (From father or mother land China),
2. Oversea Chinese (anyone born or live outside of China or the descendant of Chinese outside of China)
3. Chinese enemy vice versa (China/PRC vs Taiwan/ROC)

Chinese may not like other Chinese but they tend to look down on other races because they lack Confucius teaching i.e. respect and know your place in an orderly society.

Yes, you can label the Chinese however you want but bear in mind it can be a national pastime for them to label you too. Worst still they are natural at doing so. 🙂

If you cannot tell the difference between Indian and ****stani, then take the time to find out what distinguishes these people from others

But perhaps even more sinister, there is a deep seated cultural belief amongst the Chinese that they are simply superior to the rest of us, and they believe it is only a matter of time that this is universally recognised. Now, ignorant name calling I can brush off, but a latent superiority complex is scary, especially considering that China is entirely likely to be the next world superpower.

The first part is pretty much common to every country I've lived in - US Americans think they're the best, so do the British*, the Spanish, Egyptians... Scary bit is the future superpower aspect.

* in the case of the English they are, of course, right.

If you are Chinese then you are Chinese regardless of where you are. You consider yourself Chinese first then the nationality second.

Categories of Chinese:
1. Chinese Chinese (From father or mother land China),
2. Oversea Chinese (anyone born or live outside of China or the descendant of Chinese outside of China)
3. Chinese enemy vice versa (China/PRC vs Taiwan/ROC)

Chinese may not like other Chinese but they tend to look down on other races because they lack Confucius teaching i.e. respect and know your place in an orderly society.

chewkw, I'd be interested to hear your views on something I witnessed many times in Asia. Chinese in your category 1. above ie native born, seemed to feel a strong resentment towards those in category 2 ie overseas born Chinese.

This was particularly obvious when a naive western company would transfer an arrogant young Chinese-American MBA graduate to their mainland Chinese office in the belief that as he looked Chinese he'd know how to get on with 'them'. The mainland Chinese would without fail turn on this poor guy and make his life hell, much more so than the western staff, who they grudgingly accepted.

I've always put this down to jealousy, or feelings that a 'banana' as they called them (yellow on the outside but white on the inside) is somehow a traitor to their race. But I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

There is also a strong belief within china tied into their national identity, that they are infact descended from homo erectus and therefore a different type of human!, most paleontologists dispute this

The first part is pretty much common to every country I've lived in - US Americans think they're the best, so do the British*, the Spanish, Egyptians...

😆 Yes, of course Mogrim, they do...

However, with what I now know about Chinese culture and history (which I have to admit is still barely scratching the surface) I'd have to grudgingly admit that the Chinese are probably the ones who are right 😯

US Americans think they're the best, so do the British*,

Agree on Americans, not on British or English. The people I know all look up to Oriental cultures, generally rate them with higher average IQs too. I think of them as the latest Mk of homo sapiens.

Yes, of course Mogrim, they do...

Yup. And I'd say the majority of people from a given country will also believe their food and weather are the best, too.

Agree on Americans, not on British or English

You might not, but when the best selling papers in the UK are the Mail and the Sun, I'm willing to bet that the majority think differently. Sure, most people are willing to admit that a certain detail is better elsewhere, but overall?

The people I know all look up to Oriental cultures, generally rate them with higher average IQs too. I think of them as the latest Mk of homo sapiens.

Really? 😯

Yes, of course Mogrim, they do...

Yup. And I'd say the majority of people from a given country will also believe their food and weather are the best, too.

Sorry mogrim, I was actually genuinely agreeing with you, not being sarcastic, though I see how it may have looked otherwise...

Really?

Oh yes, the IQ part is a widely held belief amongst the scientific community too.

perthmtb - Member

chewkw, I'd be interested to hear your views on something I witnessed many times in Asia. Chinese in your category 1. above ie native born, seemed to feel a strong resentment towards those in category 2 ie overseas born Chinese.

This was particularly obvious when a naive western company would transfer an arrogant young Chinese-American MBA graduate to their mainland Chinese office in the belief that as he looked Chinese he'd know how to get on with 'them'. The mainland Chinese would without fail turn on this poor guy and make his life hell, much more so than the western staff, who they grudgingly accepted.

I've always put this down to jealousy, or feelings that a 'banana' as they called them (yellow on the outside but white on the inside) is somehow a traitor to their race. But I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

A delicate balance I see ...

LOL! That would be a disaster when a young MBA try to rule the Confucius minded masses with his Harvard business knowledge.

Better just send a Gweilo to do the job as at least they might just forgive you for being a barbaric foreigner and bow to your barbaric force. Mind you they will still sabotage you or work to rule and definitely call you names behind your back - a must.

Yes, they don't like the young banana MBA for various reasons:

1. They want to treat him as equal but treating him as equal means young MBA needs to know his place. i.e. no young MBA banana must rule over older/experienced bureaucrats unless back up by fair barbaric force.

2. They want him to be on their sides i.e. he is Chinese, looks Chinese, may or may not speak proper Chinese ... not that important but until they know where he stands they see him as a traitor. In this case it very obvious that he is a traitor representing foreign company and still think that he is there to spy on them.

3. Confucius teaching. Respect the elders and never send a young man to rule over the "bureaucrats". It's a bit like the old dynasty where a young chap needs climb his way up accordingly with support from various dodgy players in the hierarchical order.

4. Jealousy ... Young MBA lives high life and they want that too. Hang on ... they are slaves so resent young MBA.

The solutions (choose one or combination) ... again a very delicate balance as you are dealing with far superior civilisation ...

1. Mongol style - [b]fair[/b] but barbaric. Not the JapLand style because they were unfair and barbaric (they loved sex and thought they were superior). Victorian style - no good because they were treated as slaves.

2. Modern western style - you need to adjust your management style to incorporate Chinese Confucius/bureaucrat thinking. If you show too much respect (too lenient) for them your are doomed. If you are too hard on them when they do not understand the rationale behind it then you're doomed.

3. Young MBA might need a Chinese bureaucrat mentor but then that comes with another can of worm ... puppet etc.

For me I prefer the Mongol style ... fair but barbaric.

Oh yes, the IQ part is a widely held belief amongst the scientific community too.

Average IQ differences between countries have nothing to do with genetics or the fact that certain oriental ethnic backgrounds are Humans 2.0.

It has everything to do with diet and environmental conditions. Infectious disease rates are actually the best predictor of intelligence.

Chewkw...you quite simply have some of the most weird thought patterns and idea's I've ever come across. Your incoherent ramblings about things like "JapLand" and "maggots" make you sound as though you have a massive dose of ignorance/racism backed up with an unhealthy dose of formal thought disorder.

Bwaarp, having lived in China for twenty years, everything chewkw says makes sense. It is a very different culture, and if you don't understand it, don't make the arrogant 19th century westerners mistake of just bad mouthing it!

Thanks for your response chewkw, that goes a long way to explaining why I was never a successful barbarian overlord in my time in China - even the most mundane office politics is more complex than the Machiavellian conniving of an episode of Yes Minister! I wish I'd taken your wise counsel twenty years ago.

Instead, I took the Samurai way out... (and yes, I know the Chinese consider the Japanese a bunch of jumped up fishermen and rice farmers 😀 )

bwaarp - Member

Your incoherent ramblings about things like "JapLand" and "maggots" make you sound as though you have a massive dose of ignorance/racism backed up with an unhealthy dose of formal thought disorder.

In that case I should tell my Japanese friend to stop referring to himself "We the Japs ..." I learned the term from him and not the Brit (he used that term too).

Maggot is a fair term for mankind as that is what we are, maggot. The term is also acceptable because we are all in it. No bias, no prejudice, no discrimination, no sexual bias etc.

Why do you think you can come up with a better term?

I think you use the term "maggots" as a way to dehumanize others and place yourself on a pedestal.

Generally when I'm taking the piss out of human kind it's because I'm suffering from a massive sense of disappointment with the intellectual ability of my peers, with you I sense something different entirely.

Chewkw...you quite simply have some of the most weird thought patterns and idea's I've ever come across. Your incoherent ramblings about things like "JapLand" and "maggots" make you sound as though you have a massive dose of ignorance/racism backed up with an unhealthy dose of formal thought disorder.

😐 I like Chewkw's ramblings.

bwaarp - Member

I think you use the term "maggots" as a way to dehumanize others and place yourself on a pedestal.

I don't want to sound arrogant but yes it is exactly as it is you finally get it.

Think about it. I am fair and I treat everyone equally as maggot so what wrong with me being the Dearest of the Dear?

Generally when I'm taking the piss out of human kind it's because I'm suffering from a massive sense of disappointment with the intellectual ability of my peers, with you I sense something different entirely.

You being a human/maggot mechanic (studying to be a doctor) does not lend you or your friends the ability to think above the realm of maggot put it this way, hence your disappointment when your peers because they are all mechanic. My friend is a car mechanic - he sometime repairs cars but he does not know understand why some people prefer to cycle instead.

I think you use the term "maggots" as a way to dehumanize others and place yourself on a pedestal.

Generally when I'm taking the piss out of human kind it's because I'm suffering from a massive sense of disappointment with the intellectual ability of my peers, with you I sense something different entirely.

Bwaarp, you may not agree with the way chewkw sees the world, but from my time in China I can tell you that its typical of the perspective of most there.

So, you may as well learn to live with it, because when China is the new superpower, the UK may well become a small colony of it, and chewkw or someone like him could well be the Beijing appointed Governor. And then he'll be putting up signs in Hyde Park saying "No Brits or Dogs allowed", just like the British Governor put up in Hong Kong saying "No Chinese or Dogs Allowed" a hundred years ago.

Finally, for a Brit to say to someone Chinese that they

dehumanize others and place yourself on a pedestal

Perth, wrong topic Chewkw refers to everyone as maggots on quite a regular basis.

I don't buy that we'll all be under the thumb of the Chinese either

1) The worlds warming up, northern rim countries will be the predominant global powers in 50 to 100 years time. Russia, Scandinavia and Canada etc.

2) The west has a culture of anti-establishment thinking which tends to lend itself to creative thinking.

3) I see China becoming internally unstable as the middle classes gain more power.

You being a human/maggot mechanic (studying to be a doctor) does not lend you or your friends the ability to think above the realm of maggot put it this way, hence your disappointment when your peers because they are all mechanic. My friend is a car mechanic - he sometime repairs cars but he does not know understand why some people prefer to cycle instead.

Now your just being willfully ignorant, you don't or want to attempt to understand the world around you so you profess that those who are much better educated than you don't know what they are talking about or understand the world around them.

What's wrong with putting yourself on a pedestal above the rest of humanity? It makes you crassly arrogant.

Perth, wrong topic Chewkw refers to everyone as maggots on quite a regular basis.

I wondered where that had come from - thought Chewkw had done a ninja edit (racist pun intended 😉 ). Anyway, can't comment on anything he's said on other threads, but his comments on this thread still ring true with my experience...

I don't buy that we'll all be under the thumb of the Chinese either

Now there I actually agree with you, but not for the reasons you gave. My doomsday scenario earlier was just a bit of baiting. Personally, I think the main reason China won't subjugate the rest of the world even when it has the power to do, is the flip side of its supreme arrogance - it doesn't think we're worthy of it!

Look back in history, even when it [i]was[/i] the superpower for centuries, it didn't have any aggressive expansionist ambitions, unlike western dynasties like the Greeks, Romans, Portuguese, Brits, Germans, French, Americans etc. etc. As long as no-one challenges it, China has always shown itself willing to live and let live. Its difficult for us westerners to understand that, as we've been taught that aggression and taking whats not yours are natural (even desireable) human traits, but that's not what Chinese culture teaches.

With which, I'll have to bow out - its gone midnight here and time for me to sleep as I've got to throw my leg over tomorrow (the bike, you sickos 🙄 )

Also I'd like to point out that average IQ doesn't tell the whole story (not to mention the criticisms of IQ testing)....does China/Japan have a higher amount of people at the genius end of the normal distribution curve? It could be that they just have more people clustered around their higher average. What makes me say this is that Britain for example has supposedly the highest amount of recognized living geniuses per captia - although I'm not sure about the veracity of this claim.

This thread is like a transcript of discussion in the smoking room of Raffles in about 1932.