[Closed] The Orient - Racist?

We had this discussion in a hot tub of all places in Cuba many many years ago, with Chinese, Canadian, German, British and no US present.

The Canadians considered it offensive, everyone else were too drunk to comment 😉

Can't wait to see Leyton Orient rebranded.

I just find it totally bizarre and wondered if there was in fact a genuinely understandable reason.

'Oriental' is considered racist because both terms are western.

How can it be western when the word oriental means eastern?

Oriental means eastern, so I suppose that's a bit eurocentric, no? Haven't heard anyone use the word in that sense for years though, last time i heard it used was by my grandad.

Where does the conclusion that you can't call other asians, asians come from? Turkey is transcontinental so calling all turks asians would be weird. Cyprus is meditteranean rather than asian surely?

BigJohn - Member

How can it be western when the word oriental means eastern?

Seriously? It's latin- and obviously if you're calling something eastern, it's because you're to the west!

Call the Canadians Occidents

That'll learn em

Call the Canadians Occidents

That'll learn em

call them Americans..it's even funnier 😀

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oriental

Haven't heard anyone use the word in that sense for years though, last time i heard it used was by my grandad.

It was considered very polite, as in oriental [i]gentleman[/i].

Interestingly, I guess it would be appropriate for the Chinese or Japanese to refer to the Yanks as "Orientals". Perhaps they should.

🙄

😮

Can't wait to see Leyton Orient rebranded

It ain't happening, haven't we got enough agro with all the Olympic Stadum business.

We have already changed from Clapton Orient, leave the O's alone

Cyprus is meditteranean rather than asian surely?

There is no continent call Meditterane. 😉

And don't called me Shirley.

TuckerUK - Member

There is no continent call Meditterane.

There's also no continent called Asia.

I thought it was only offensive when used as the acronym for westernised oriental gentleman

Which is a fake backronym anyway.

Oriental isn't racist in itself, it's just obsolete and (apparently) unwelcome. Quick test: would the Major in Fawlty Towers use it? If so, avoid!

Edward Said wrote a very influential book called Orientalism (short version: westerners always project all sorts of romantic or condescending bollocks onto people from "the East") which also hastened the demise of the term.

Eur[b]asia[/b] maybe?

I think it may be offensive or racist as it is a simplification and somewhat reductive.
Oriental means little more than Eastern, so should include all kinds of people.yet is only really applied to a subset of them. We have a similar issue where folks use the term Asian when they only mean a subset of people from Asia. It feels racist because it reduces Asian to meaning brown skinned but i don't know where from and Oriental means slanty-eyed but i don't know where from.

Encountered this a couple of years ago meeting a friend of an American friend. I described her as oriental...which went down like a jobby sandwich. Not quite as bad as the N word apparently, but not far off

what would Mr Wu from deadwood say about it?

Oh for heaven's sake. Could someone just compile a list of words we are allowed to use and then we can get on with communicating clearly with each other?

To Western Europeans, it's not immediately obvious how to identify racial differences between mid- and far-Eastern peoples. This is compounded not by racism but genetics (cf. "they all look the same to me"); humans are intrinsically bad at differentiating facial features outside their of own creed.

But anyway. If you put, say, a Japanese gentleman in a room together with similar representatives from China, Vietnam, Thailand, N/S Korea, etc, and asked your average Brit to identify the nationalities, they wouldn't be able to do it. Similarly, shibboleths aside, if you were to group a Canadian, an Englishman, a Welshman, a German, would you tell the difference?

So how do we politically correctly describe someone who is of indeterminate nationality but obvious race? "Yeah, there were three lads there officer, a white guy, er, a brown one and a yellow one."

I've always believed "Asian" (Indian / ****stani) and "Oriental" (Chinese / Japanese) to be safe terms. You wouldn't blink at someone suggesting that a vase had obvious "oriental influences" in its design. But now this is offensive? We're running out of adjectives.

I knew the US used 'Asian' to mean what we'd call 'Oriental', I've fallen foul of that before, though I can't remember offhand how they'd refer to someone of from the Indian subcontinent. I'd guess they get grouped in as 'black' with all the hand luggage that comes with that? "Indian" is a whole other minefield in the US of course.

Incidentally, next time you're laid up at an airport, have a game of "guess the nationality." It's fascinating.

Edward Said wrote a book about the way the orient is depicted in western culture. Well worth a look at these videos if you've got the time.

Oh for heaven's sake. Could someone just compile a list of words we are allowed to use and then we can get on with communicating clearly with each other?

I understand your dilemma. I felt exactly the same when I was banned for calling someone a tit.

Our dear friends across the water really do get themselves in a pickle with language at times. I guess there may be an argument that oriental is western-centric, but racist? Really?

It's refreshing to spend time in South/Southern Africa these days where simple language can be used simply - black is black, white is white and coloured is coloured without, or at least with less of, the prejudice that went with those terms in the past. Why does everyone else find it so difficult to use basic adjectives?

And then in Asia, there is no shame to noting racial differences. I will always be a gaijin in Japan. If anyone would like to take offence on my behalf, feel free. I certainly will not.

I understand your dilemma. I felt exactly the same when I was banned for calling someone a tit.

<Speaking as a user here, not a mod, just to be clear; I don't know anything about this ban>

It's refreshing to spend time in South/Southern Africa these days where simple language can be used simply - black is black, white is white and coloured is coloured

But what do they call someone with slantish eyes and skin with a slightly yellowish tinge ?

If you can crack that one it would help.

There's also no continent called Asia.

According to my Chambers's Encyclopaedia there are seven continents: Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Europe, Australia, and Antarctica.

Still, what do they know eh? Shall you tell them or me?

I know some countries worldwide teach only six continents, whilst others teach only five.

Given what's going on in Africa these days, Ernie, I would imagine, "Chinese."

Even if SE Asians find the term Oriental offensive, shouldn't someone tell them? I'm mean, not only is the term used extensively by SE Asian businesses, my local Chinese (run by Chinese people born in China) is called the Oriental Palace. I wonder if they know how damn offensive they are being too themselves. Bloody racists immigrants! 🙄

But what do they call someone with slantish eyes and skin with a slightly yellowish tinge ?

If you can crack that one it would help.

Well, seeing as white people aren't white (well, I've never seen one that is), and black people aren't black (ditto, though close), you call them yellow. On the scale of racism/offence all equal.

And never forget, both racism and offence really need intent.

I would imagine, "Chinese."

Well that's a bit insulting to people who aren't Chinese teamhurtmore.

I would have expected the South Africans to be a tad more sensitive to racism.

Has anybody mentioned political correctness gone mad yet? 😉

Eurasia maybe?

No, that's a landmass.

The Americas are also a landmass, comprising the continents of North America and South America.

But what do they call someone with slantish eyes

Does that depend on whether it's something inherent to their race or something they've acquired by staying too long?

Not really. Chinese are the major Oriental players in Africa, so probably a sensible guess for a S African to make. Of course, they are sensitive to racism but, sensibly IMO, they have no problem calling black people "black" and white people "white". Just leaves us foreigners fannying around for more convoluted vocab when they have no issue with it.

.....they have no problem calling black people "black" and white people "white"

I don't either. Do you know many people who have a problem with that ? I don't think I know any.

TuckerUK - Member

According to my Chambers's Encyclopaedia there are seven continents: Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Europe, Australia, and Antarctica.

Still, what do they know eh? Shall you tell them or me?

Cobblers though isn't it- the origin of the 7-continent model is just low quality ancient geography, geographically and geologically Eurasia is a single continent.

This is the trouble I don't think many words are racist in themselves ,But racism is the intent behind the word.

Cobblers though isn't it- the origin of the 7-continent model is just low quality ancient geography, geographically and geologically Eurasia is a single continent.

Not really. The land mass Eurasia is split into two distinct continents separated by a mountain range (the Urals), because the indigenous peoples were so different on either side. Ditto North and South America.

Ditto North and South America.

What mountain range separates North and South America ?

And are the indigenous peoples really so different on either side ?

China, Vietnam, Thailand, N/S Korea,

If you can't recognize the difference between a Chinese person and a Thai you've got something seriously wrong with your brains facial recognition circuits. 😛

They are completely different looks....Thai's and Filipino's have a much more pacific islander look going on....I could forgive mixing up Han Chinese and Japanese but Thai and Chinese is easy peazie

That cherry-picked sentence in full,

But anyway. If you put, say, a Japanese gentleman in a room together with similar representatives from China, Vietnam, Thailand, N/S Korea, etc, and asked your average Brit to identify the nationalities, they wouldn't be able to do it. Similarly, shibboleths aside, if you were to group a Canadian, an Englishman, a Welshman, a German, would you tell the difference?

Are you saying I'm wrong? That your [i]average [/i]Brit can recognise the identity of a Thai bloke just by looking at his face?

I'm saying if you put them next to each other and asked them which one was Chinese and which one was Thai, anyone who was remotely educated in regards to GCSE Geography or who has met someone who is Thai and/or Chinese then yes I would expect them to guess correctly at a statistically significant level.

But seeing as your average Brit is a nationalistic narrow minded buffoon with an interest in the outside world that is almost comparable to Americans then I'm perhaps inclined to agree that you are right.

The Welsh, the English and the Canadians have mingled to much to tell them apart...islands have a pretty good way of cutting populations off so that they produce quite distinctive facial features. Thais are predominantly of Austronesian descent and look a hell of a lot different to Koreans, Chinese and the Japanese.

I get told I look German by my girlfriends parents...and I've been mistaken for being Dutch by Germans...until I spoke...so it would seem Asians can also take an educated guess as to where you may be from. Thy can certainly tell the difference between Southern and Northern Europeans which is akin to the Thai/Filipino/Indonesia vs China/Korea/Japan divide.

Ditto North and South America.

What mountain range separates North and South America ?

No mountains, but the 'Mericans dug a little ditch called the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal ]Panama Canal[/url] a few years ago...