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I think the media(and just everyone) connecting this event and football in general to 'Englishness' is a terrible mistake that has backfired very seriously, a win might have obscured it but building it up the way everyone did to then lose was bad enough, to end in violence just makes England look internationally thuggish, better PR decisions needed.
What the team actually achieved was to miss one penalty in the best result in 55 years, and the fans let the whole country down, only way to fix this is stop framing English identity around something that is rotten to the core.
it is a (sadly increasing
ly confident) minority rather than any sort of societal norm.
FTFY
Why should they be absolved of responsibility?
All the bad things that happened last night, it's has bugger all to do with this Tory government. These things have been happening for years...society has been filled with assholes since as long as I can remember. Long before brexit, Boris etc etc. Yet predictably certain posters pop up on nearly all yhreads on here to blame the Tories. We get it, you don't like them. Neither do i. But it's just boring now..
Oh, well we're all frightfully sorry to bore you.
Lets not bother looking into the issue of racism then, because of your boredom threshold
The fact of the matter is that they've been stoking a culture war which led to them, shortly before the tournament kicked off, giving a tacit endorsement that its fine to be racist
So to then pop up and condemn something that you actively encouraged is rank hypocrisy
When it comes to addressing the toxic racism in this country, this present government is very much part of the problem
Sorry if that bores you
Just because it's been going on for years doesn't mean their actions are not influencing what we are seeing now.
We live amongst scum
They just need to be heard, man. It is just frustration at being ignored that turns you into a head-kicking, racist graffiti spraying thug. Given a chance, they are salt of the earth, honest guv.
🙄
I do find it a terrible shame that this decent bunch of footballers and a thoughtful manager are so disliked up here ( and all over europe) because of the antics of English politicians, media and their so called “fans” and the xenophobic jingoism that those politicians, media and “fans” follow
I'm here in Germany. Over the last two weeks I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked by people what the deal is with English fans booing the national anthems. Not once have I had an answer for it other than those doing it are on a hunt somewhere in Berkshire.
I guess England's defeat had at least allowed the general population a closer insight to the minds of your England "fans".
So, and I’m prepared to be educated to the contrary - I was quite a bit younger - actually, exactly half the age I am today 😂 but I don’t remember it being this bad in 1996? Seemed everyone was just having a great time that summer. Am I just imagining that?
Was that because people were generally E’d up and smoking nice mellow cannabis resin rather than skunk & cocaine? 🤔
Seriously though, was there way less of this shite then or was it just not as noticeable? (Genuine question by the way, not specifically trying to make a point.)
The mood was totally different at Euro 96. I remember it felt like a great big celebration and everyone was invited. I'm sure a lot was down to the industrial quantities of weapons grade MDMA we were all skulling, but not all of it.
There definitely wasn't this air of aggressive nationalism around like there is today. The whole St Georges cross ID felt like it had been wrestled away from the far right in 96. Today it feels very much like they've got full ownership of it back
I could be mistaken. Maybe we could ask the opinion of someone who wasn't absolutely ripped to the tits on Doves for the entire period? 😀
BTW: happy birthday Bravissimo 🙂
It seemed like there wasn’t this air of aggressive nationalism around like there is today
To be fair, DD's countrymen expressed a fairly aggressive form of nationalism in the centre of Manchester in the middle of Euro96
Great video about ball geometry. This years offering didn't curl and didn't dip unless hit in a knuckleball fashion. Better than the Jabliani or whatever they called it in 2010 but it's a balloon still.
I am today 😂 but I don’t remember it being this bad in 1996? Seemed everyone was just having a great time that summer. Am I just imagining that?
My hometown of dustable got trashed after we got knocked (not that the town wasn't tagged beforehand)
I was working at parcelforce in Luton on a night shift they let us watch it in the 1fst floor cafeteria, after we lost one of my soon to be ex colleagues the his chair through the window onto tbe road below in a rage
There were riots up & down the country
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Trafalgar_Square_riots
I thought that was the trail end of English football violence as a thing, sadly its still lurking a decade ade of austerity followed by the last 5 years of stoking division for political gain has made things worse
The mood in the nation was entirely different in 96, a New Labour government was around the corner, Tories in their death throes (though in Major they were at least led by someone with common decency).
Something else that was around the corner was devolition, which in part explains the appearance of the flag of St George. Previoisly it was the Union Jack that operated as a symbol for the Nationalists. So in a sense in 1996 the 'new' flag started with a clean slate, it took time for the symbolic toxicity to transfer itself from one flag to the other.
after we lost one of my soon to be ex colleagues the his chair through the window onto tbe road below in a rage
There were riots up & down the country
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Trafalgar_Square_riots
/blockquote>Yeah, there was plenty of it about.
The mid 90's was when they starting banning ****s from premier league stadiums, which changed the shape of football violence - it moved down the leagues. The ****s of (say) Nottingham simply moved across to Notts County and carried on as before. I had a Saturday job at a lower league club and violence got a lot worse around this time. Our local firm bloody loved it - loads more fighting to be done.
The reason for this is the racism he experienced on Wednesday night while leaving Wembley
I get your point, and it shouldn't have happened. Apologies to your lad but I doubt it was racist. Given he's blonde and white. Nationalist, or teamist maybe
You simply haven’t had this kind of nonsense at club level for decades. It’s something to do with the ‘fans’ that the national team attracts. It
That is completely untrue. It never went away. You want to try hanging around and watch the police clearing out the hardcore long after the game has finished. Thats them.
Not that he’s not hard, but that he was deliberately trying to get someone else in trouble. But I didn’t say that.
Posted 5 hours ago
I think he was too preoccupied with the pain to worry about anyone else. It was going in studs first, over the ball and into Grealish that was going to get Jorginho in trouble.
Now, Jorginho was faking injury in the hopes of getting out of serious trouble and it worked. Then he had the temerity to complain that he had to go off until after the restart but Grealish didn't.
What's the difference between the 'knuckle draggers' directing abuse at people that are from an indentifiable group , who are rightly castigated, and people who refer to car drivers and other identifiable groups as 'gammon'. Isn't that exactly the same behaviour? If you want them banned from football, do you also want them banned from STW, or is that 'different'.?
Asking for a friend.
Can we make this about the football please? Although I am hurting, I am still incredibly proud of what this team achieved. Well done England. Onwards to the World Cup - at least we don't have a long wait this time around (although longer than it should be with the silly winter scheduling).
The one positive we can take from the aftermath of the euro's is that the UK will never host a major football tournament for the foreseeable future
The reason for this is the racism he experienced on Wednesday night while leaving Wembley. He is half Danish and went to watch the game with his Mum. When they were leaving he was subjected to a load of racist abuse towards him and his mum.
Can't tell you how sad this makes me feel. Follow rugby instead. We went to Stade de France, cafe with the French fans, sat next to them in the stadium (all mixed), congratulated each other on good play, then when France just hung on for the win, they complemented England and said how lucky France was to win. Then off for a drink together. Just a lovely day out.
It's Sport. That's all. I enjoyed the tournament, enjoyed England's playing. But they lost by one penalty. Move on...
I am still incredibly proud of what this team achieved. Well done England
That seems to be the overwhelming message pretty much everywhere else but here. The youngsters did really well on and off the pitch. The world cup is now something to really look forward too.
Seriously though, was there way less of this shite then or was it just not as noticeable?
There was no twitter or internet forums.
tbh, the idea that the 90s were less violent or less racist than now is mental. 😆
That is completely untrue. It never went away.
Maybe not completely, but There is absolutely no way you can compare the levels of hooliganism at modern football with decades gone past. It simply doesn't exist at any kind of comparable level.
... with the one depressingly predictable exception...
England internationals
There is absolutely no way you can compare the levels of hooliganism at modern football with decades gone past. It simply doesn’t exist at any kind of comparable level.
… with the one depressingly predictable exception…
England internationals
Or Poland, Hungary, Central America, South America, Italy, France.
When Montreal won a playoff series there spwqs rioting. When they lost the Stanley cup, there was rioting. When Vancouver lost, there was rioting, fires, overturned police cars.
The only thing more reliable that England hooligans is the self flagellation that we are a white nation that can't deal with this sort of problem. We aren't.
I get your point, and it shouldn’t have happened. Apologies to your lad but I doubt it was racist. Given he’s blonde and white. Nationalist, or teamist maybe
I may have got the terminology wrong but being yelled at by a middle aged bloke shouting at a 12 year old to "f*ck off back to your own country" and "F*cken Immigrants" to me I would deem that racist behaviours.
But I get your point as I would view abuse on some one for being Muslim as racist while I would view the same abuse aimed towards someone because they are Catholic as sectarianism.
Can’t tell you how sad this makes me feel. Follow rugby instead.
He dose, but he has a love of all sport.
Can we make this about the football please?
It's a novel idea, but lets try it anyway.
I am not sure where the England team go after this, with Southgate in charge. He has done a fantastic job of unifying the team, talking to the media and representing the team in a very different light to the past. But tactically he just doesn't have it to take them further, this is one of the most talented squads in world football, but they are playing extremely restrictive football, against type for the football most of them play week in and week out with their clubs. It also shouldn't be forgotten that we had very kind draws in both this tournament and the last world cup.
Footballing wise (I'm no expert, I'm a Tractor Boy) I think Southgate has got great squad of talented players and knows how to plan how to play a good match against whatever opposition comes up.
He seems to struggle a bit against "better quality" opposition that gets clever and changes something mid match. Last night he didn't seem to know what/who to change to take control of the game back from the Italians.
Whether he can improve that we shall see. He needs to show he has learnt from this at the next World Cup.
MSP
Full Member
Can we make this about the football please?It’s a novel idea, but lets try it anyway.
I am not sure where the England team go after this, with Southgate in charge
World cup, I'd have thought that obvious. 😆 Youse have a good young team, who just got your best result at a tourney in 55 years.
Seems a bit of a no-brainer to stick with it.
tbh, the idea that the 90s were less violent or less racist than now is mental.
It’s not really the question I asked, but thanks for your input.
😆
Let's not forget England didn't lose a game in the tournament. They lost the tournament through penalties which is fair enough, but in terms of what Southgate achieved over 90 (&120) minutes, they were unbeaten. If we'd actaully won on penalties that wouldn't have made the England team any better than they were.
deadlydarcy
Free MemberIt’s not really the question I asked, but thanks for your input.
Did answer your question in the bit you didn't quote(ie it's more noticeable due to modern communication, and also racism in particular was more ingrained and less noticeable cause less people even knew they were doing it, to give it the long answer, well opinion really )
The quoted bit was just a supplementary comment. 😉
"Youse have a good young team, who just got your best result at a tourney in 55 years.
Seems a bit of a no-brainer to stick with it."
This really, as long as Southgate wants to stay. England didn't lose because they were too defensive, they lost because we couldn't hold on to the ball as well as Italy. Watching the second half, I didn't feel the solution was to be found on our magic bench, you just saw a young and improved team that wasn't quite there yet.
Italy were the most attacking side in the tournament, had Southgate made the formation change earlier we may have got the second goal but equally, Italy could have opened us up more easily, this Italian team were going for the jugular in the second half. It's the simple difference between you letting the other team have the ball for long periods and them not letting you have it at all.
Southgate's plan nearly worked....Very nearly..
I am not sure where the England team go after this, with Southgate in charge. He has done a fantastic job of unifying the team, talking to the media and representing the team in a very different light to the past. But tactically he just doesn’t have it to take them further, this is one of the most talented squads in world football, but they are playing extremely restrictive football,
We've had squads with world class players and experienced managers before and not done anything like this well. I'm happy for more of the same and the chance of a little bit more.
As above they were very close to winning. Yes, Italy were better on the day, but it wouldn't have be inconceivable for England to have won. They had chances and Italy got some luck
Thing is, the last two major tournwments have been the best chance England have had, no real stand out teams in either one, and a lot of the usual suspects, Germany, Holland, Portugal, France in the euros, Brasil, Argentina et al in the WC, none as strong as they've been.
Will they get a better chance? Who knows.
But I do think it would be madness not to stick with Southgate.
Thing is, the last two major tournwments have been the best chance England have had, no real stand out teams in either one
😀
There’s damning with faint praise for you. You scotch can’t help yourselves.
a middle aged bloke shouting at a 12 year old to “f*ck off back to your own country” and “F*cken Immigrants” to me I would deem that racist behaviours.
Stupid, ignorant, wrong. Xenophobic. Nationalist.
Also stupid and ignorant and wrong. You have to feel pity for someone whose life is so bad behaviour like that makes it seem better.
World Cup next year! Woohoo! England will probably in the final again but they may need to play Argentina. Can there be happy ending? More heartbreak? I ain't watching the extra time that I am sure.
Stick with Southgate as he has the track record to prove it. As for the players perhaps one or two new faces but not much changes needed apart from perhaps more determination and creativity.
a middle aged bloke shouting at a 12 year old to “f*ck off back to your own country” and “F*cken Immigrants” to me I would deem that racist behaviours.
Sad but that's the reality. Learn and move on. Life is too short.
But tactically he just doesn’t have it to take them further, this is one of the most talented squads in world football, but they are playing extremely restrictive football, against type for the football most of them play week in and week out with their clubs.
I do think Southgate needs to evolve his thinking but like his team he is a work in progress. But he has something where 'better' tactical managers have failed, he has a team that has no real egos, no prima donnas and consequently a team that will play for him and in the way that he needs them to.
I genuinely think they and he will be better for the experience. Maybe a day off today but we have WC qualifiers in 6 week's time, and I think he and his coaching team (and credit to all of them) will start tomorrow on how to respond to playing against a side like Italy.
I'm torn on Southgate. He has certainly fixed a lot of the problems with England. Although a lot if the credit has to go elsewhere - money has been put into development. The development system has worked to address perceived weaknesses. Foreign players and managers and players going abroad has broadened our view of the game. All of that has given Southgate some great resources. He had a large role in changing the players attitude. They don't look scared, they seem not to have the thing older players mentioned of not enjoying putting on the english shirt because of the pressure and crap that comes with it.
But, and it's a big one. Southgate lacks experience. That showed when he was at Boro, although he had a tough hand to play there. It has showed at times at the Euros and qualifying. Mancini out foxed him in the 2nd half of the final and he couldn't adjust on the fly. He has set out his teams in one of two ways, kept it simple, kept the players in their comfort zones. He has forged a very, very good unit to stop goals. Defence wins tournaments. He has a real problem figuring out his midfield and forwards when one of his two options doesn't work. I think there is much more to be had from this team, maybe different players, certainly Bellingham is a tantalizing option for the WC and would paper over some of Southgates cracks.
I wouldn't get rid of him but I think the FA has to be as blunt with him as he is reputed to be with players. Maybe get some advice from some grizzled old vets.
he has a team that has no real egos, no prima donnas and consequently a team that will play for him and in the way that he needs them to.
Mancini has done that with Italy. None of the problems in the background with players not getting on the field etc. The two teams that seem to have that sorted made the final. Surprise!
😀
There’s damning with faint praise for you. You scotch can’t help yourselves.
We're shite, and we know we are!.
Southgate lacks experience.
Southgate is the best there is now for England as the WC is too close.
no real stand out teams in either one
Didn't Scotland manage not to lose to one of the finalists? How can you say that's not a stand out team? In many ways they were the real winners of this tournament.
Southgate is the best there is now for England as the WC is too close.
Absolutely. I just hope he is open to critiques and able to learn and evolve some if his thinking between now and then.