Forum menu
What the big deal?
I think it is simply a case of the exclusions being another story reflecting the ongoing challenges the wider world is experiencing during the covid crisis.
Southgate is playing 2 holding midfielders again in a 4-2-3-1
Pickford
Walker, Stones, Maguire. Shaw
Phillips. Rice
Saka, Grealish, Sterling
Kane
Well that was interesting. Still not at all convinced Southgate knows his best team yet. Saka looked a live wire, but not a winger. Walker and Shaw offered desperately needed width but only when they could get forward. There were a lot of times in the second half when the Czech were pressing the defenders in possession. They were looking for an out ball but the central third was completely clogged. No one up front was pulling wide. It's not a new problem for England but I don't get how they have gone this many years without solving it. The forward and mids were literally bumping into each other.
Kane looked a bit more awake but definitely still off the pace.
Unfortunate for Scotland that Modric suddenly found a vein of form.
When I saw the team before the match, I wondered how the hell Southgate had selected Saka ahead of Sancho and Rashford, but he was man of the match for me.
Shaw, Rice Philips and Walker are dwelling on the ball far too much not, seeing the runs and movement of the forward line quick enough allowing the opposition to get into a good defensive shape so that when the ball does move up the pitch it needs something special to break the lines, or more frequently ends up with the forward players trying to run into gaps that don't exist. Henderson did better in that respect for the first 5-10 mins, then just settled into the same pattern of play. I think those patterns of play are down to the training and instructions from the manager.
Maguire's prat fall was just embarrassing, he should have been fighting to get the ball in the net, and instead decided to do a flop Norman Wisdom would have been proud of, lucky not to get booked for that.
Ach well, we'd have got pumped in the knockout stages anyway.
. I think those patterns of play are down to the training and instructions from the manager.
Rice is much more attacking for West Ham than he is for England, so I can only assume he is playing to instructions.
Rice and Phillips play for mid table clubs (ok West Ham over-achieved last season) and have never played in the Champions League. You need more quality and experience in the middle of the park than that, ie, Croatia last night.
My doubts about Saka were never about his ability, but his position. He is very versatile but the one thing he isn't - so far - is a winger. So he was another guy cutting inside. Sterling ended up inside, Grealish had to go wide to find space but that's not where he is going to do damage from.
The Henderson sub was weird. He is fine as a player but he has an eye for the quick ball forward. Which is fine when it works but it often turns over possession. Not what you want if you are trying to kill a game off. That improved when Phillips dropped into the pivot role. He showed maturity and guile, took the pace out. After that point England held onto the ball and slowed the game down.
I think they are back to the Lampard -Gerrard-Scholes-Beckham-Rooney problem. Too many talented 'must start' players who just can't play together. When Sterling was running behind Kane from wide they looked threatening. Otherwise you could throw a blanket over the 3 forwards and 2 mids and still hit the centre circle.
It was pretty dull overall. I can't see the teams in The Group of Death getting too worried about England
Tonight's games should be much more interesting
Kane doesn't look fit to me, so slow and off the pace.
I can’t see the teams in The Group of Death getting too worried about England
I don't know - England are more than capable of turning up when they have to and it would take a foolish manager to write them off.
You need more quality and experience in the middle of the park than that, ie, Croatia last night.
They played the Czech Republic last night. I would also argue that Rice and Phillips face tougher opponents in the PL than they've faced in any of the group stage games.
I've barely watched a game of football in years, but WTF has happened to the England team? They look bloody terrified of actually playing the game. The forwards are standing still with their backs to goal, the midfielders don't seem to understand the concept of passing it forwards, and the defenders have perfected the art of passing it sideways to each other or back to the keeper. It's like watching a team in reverse gear. I can only conclude that Southgate's strategy is to progress via 1 nil wins or penalty shootouts because he doesn't think any of them are good enough to play an attacking game. I can see now why I stopped watching a few years back 🙂
They had their moments in the first half but generally England are pretty terrible to watch.
They have however coasted through the group as winners so I don't think people can really complain (except of course people can complain about anything).
I expect it will be put down to "tournament football" but it's not been very good to watch. First half of the match last night was a lot better and we looked a bit more attack minded. There was definitely more of a spark to them. The second half was a weird mixture of frustrating and terrifying. Slow, slow, defensive, slow just gets dull to watch. And then our defence seem to conspire to remove any shred of confidence in them by allowing themselves to be played backwards and resorting to Pickford having to lump it forward - what I would have thought was the very thing they are trying to avoid by playing it from the back. I can imagine most other countries looking at our defence and licking their lips. And although he scored I did think Sterling had another rank game. Watching him play for England is mystifying. He has a reputation at club level of being a great player. ON the basis of what I see in an England shirt, I would struggle to put him in our local pub team. Let's hope we step up a few gears in the next round or we will be out.
Is Sterling the new scapegoat?
He's scored both of England's goals, is a constant nuisance to the opposition. If it's running at defenders or making runs away - his movement & anticipation for the goal was superb. He scored with a header & is one of the shortest players on the pitch.
It looks like Southgate's ploy is to bore the opposition to death. But if we won it with a series of 1-0's would that make it any less of win?
(Greece I'm looking at you)
EDIT:
I think Southgate has set us up to play on the break, great against better teams, not so good against teams we are supposed to dominate. This feels like one of the most creative group of players we have ever had & we're ignoring that side of the game.
Southgate is on a loser tbh, same as most international managers.
I watched Rangers playing some fantastic football last year, particularly in Europe, passing and moving like I've never seen us doing before, I remember watching us getting humped 4-0 from Juventus many years ago and wishing we could play like that, and last season at times we did.
Anyway, when lockdown started last spring, they had 3 months together, Gerrard (but more importantly Michael Beale, the coach) had them in daily, working on possession, phases, overloads, all that stuff that modern footballers require, and I'm pretty sure the seasons success was based on that.
Gareth Southgate will never get time to work like that, all he can do is try to get the best he can out of a group of individuals, a lot of which are not as good as they think they are.
I knew Saka would shine if he got a chance, he's young but he's not afraid to take responsibility. If Walker had passed to him the 3 or 4 times Saka made a run down the byeline we might be better placed to make a judgement on his abilities as a winger. Walker could have also overlapped with Saka and got down the wing and put a cross or two in himself.
Gareth Southgate will never get time to work like that, all he can do is try to get the best he can out of a group of individuals,
True. That is modern National team football. You can either be Spain or Germany, have players who have gone through a uniform development process and who play together at club level, or you take the pragmatic approach. Solid, well drilled defence, because that can be done in a relatively short period and a player or two up front who can create and score off not much, Ronaldo, Messi, etc etc. Even if they don't the potential creates mistakes in the opposition
Is Sterling the new scapegoat?
Not for me, he is exactly as I expected. A superb player in a Man City side, where he has good players around him and is given a narrow role to do, which he does very well. It makes the best of him in a way that a broader role in the England side doesn't.
we might be better placed to make a judgement on his abilities as a winger.
Maybe. Seen him play at wingback, where he liked pretty good. Looks pretty comfortable in the centre of midfield. I don't think he'll ever be a pure wide attacker. I don't think that's how he sees the game. He might develop it but there is only so much you can play against type. Ask Thierry Henri.
I remember watching us getting humped 4-0 from Juventus many years ago
As one of the few Italian kids (at least, distantly Italian, in my case) in a predominantly Rangers supporting Oban school, that was indeed a glorious day 😁.
I would probably have been beaten up for wearing my Juve top into class the next day but most of the tough kids cared more about shinty anyway, and the rest were probably trying to figure out if Juventus had the 'correct' religious affiliation or not 🙄
@inkster, same can be said of Foden, the last two games he was getting into good positions and not getting a pass, then he would get passed to when he was boxed in with nowhere to go.
And to be honest all the front players, with all the holding midfielders and full backs failing to find the right balls to feed them, I think walker is a little unfortunate to get singled out, Shaw, Rice and Philips were doing the same things. Then you get Maquire and Stones pushing out from the back too often because the players that should be moving upfield aren't
In the commentary when Pickford made a long pass that nearly had had Sterling in on goal, he got praised for his ballplaying ability, but far more often he dawdled on the ball, and made a long pass that gave the Czech's possession. His kicking was actually pretty poor, and IMO he was the one slowing the game down a lot when used as a sweeper keeper. He maybe ok to pass back to when they have to, but his kicking ability isn't good enough to use him as an extra player to break the press like Ederson does for city.
A superb player in a Man City side, where he has good players around him and is given a narrow role to do, which he does very well. It makes the best of him in a way that a broader role in the England side doesn’t.
A narrow role at city? Which teams give their forward players more wide ranging roles than city under Pep? They rotate in attack, press from the front, then are expected (demanded) to get back and help defend.
Not sure any of the England squad think they are better than they really are, they certainly seem a lot less full of themselves than players from the previous couple of generations. They seem less cliquey and wear the shirt with a little more ease, probably because Southgate has had an influence across all age groups in the England set up so players feel more involved from an early age so are less daunted when the big call up comes.
He may not be the best manager in the world but he's got the England set up running better than before. One thing we can all agree on though is that he's good at managing expectations. England may have been poor against the Scots but neither Southgate nor the players got caught up in the moment the way the fans and the media did. It was always going to be Scotland's biggest moment and they came to play and gave it their all. A damp squib of a nil, nil draw suited England's preparation better than a physically and emotionally draining banstormer of a 3-2 game.
The Czecks had settled for a 1-0 loss during the second half in last nights game and England beat the world cup finalists in the first game. Can't see what the problem is myself?
Dubravka 🤦♂️
A narrow role at city? Which teams give their forward players more wide ranging roles than city under Pep? They rotate in attack, press from the front, then are expected (demanded) to get back and help defend.
Look at where he scores. Think it's a coincidence they all look the same? Pep manages by remote control. The players do exactly what he tells them to do. He follows the script he is given. That's what I mean by narrow role. Give him a job to do he's fine, tell him to busk it - he's just not that kind of player.
Yeah if only he hadn't stayed in his position last night, maybe when Grealish took the ball to the left, if he had cut inside and drifted over to the right post beyond the opposite winger he could have got a goal.
He does that kind of movement far more with city, the trouble is a don't think Southgate wants them to do that as much. His role with England is far more constrained than at club level.
Yeah if only he hadn’t stayed in his position last night, maybe when Grealish took the ball to the left, if he had cut inside and drifted over to the right post beyond the opposite winger he could have got a goal.
So tell me, oh great sarcasmo, what's about the biggest thing you drill into attackers so they don't have to busk it? When the front guy goes back post to front, go back post, there will probably be space. Any 10 year old who has had a decent coach knows that one. Exactly the opposite of busking it.
These two matches have turned into goalfests
This Spain game is the most one-sided in the tournament so far. Could have been a lot more than 5-0
Spain finally found their movement, width and finishing. They aren't the Spain of old and I don't think they can be but they look a much better side.
Is this the birth of a new school of defending? Forget about getting the ball, just block the attackers swing, make sure he kicks you, win free kick. Something tells me it won't catch on.
but his kicking ability isn’t good enough to use him as an extra player to break the press like Ederson does for city.
Any chance you're a City fan? Pickford - 20% more passes per game than Ederson, 300% more accurate long passes. The one thing Pickford has been almost universally praised for is his kicking/passing ability.
Have you ever watched Ederson? He's so much better than Pickford at distribution. You're relying on stats but in this case it's quantitative not qualitative e.g. Mertersacker had the most passes in the league in one of his latter seasons. So what ... 90+% of them were 10m left or right
What's your prediction for tonight's games?
Great diving header for Hungary - 1-0 against Germany!
What's with all the bitching on here BTW? I mean, I know, it's STW but IT'S ONLY A GAME LADS
C'mon Germany !
How the hell can you give a penalty as the keeper has punched the forward in the head but yet give a yellow not a red?!
Because he didn't punch him in the head? Caught him with a follow through.
I'm just glad to see a pen/yellow given against a goalie they usually get away with almost anything.
BTW Portugal, France, Germany are all looking decidedly average, Spain looked awful until they won 5-0 today. Do they have the same gnashing and wailing in all those countries as we do?
Well var has been praised at this tournament, but that is insane, no way var shouldn't have overturned that, or at least the ref should have been asked to look at it on the monitor.
Letting that stand is just encouraging people to go over in the box with the slightest contact. What was the defender actually supposed to do in that situation? He didn't appear to deviate his run to block Mbappe at all.
What was the defender actually supposed to do in that situation?
Go for the ball not the player, just running into the opposition to get them off the ball is how to give away penalties. Lloris was definitely going for the ball but still deserved his yellow card. Two good judgements.
Portugual looking good, France middling.
Huh! The second decision certainly was not a penalty.
Mbappe initiated the collision, not the Portuguese defender who was just holding his line.
You have a ref's decision confirmed by the video people, what more do you want?
You reckon Benzema was offside too?
You have a ref’s decision confirmed by the video people, what more do you want?
I want the correct decision, unfortunately this time var have looked for an excuse to confirm the refs mistake, rather than correct it.
Good thing now is that England get Hungary in the next round if it stays like this.
What more do I want? A game played with a fair decision, holding someone off in the penalty area is part of the physical aspect of the game.
Your slow-mo obviously wasn't the same as on TV here.
Another good call from the ref and it's two all.