Boarding bob
No this is actually my real name. . . not an alias at all?
PS trolling? really? Is the Scottish definition of trolling "not drinking the coolaid"?
If so then maybe.
Is the pot of money given to Scotland the same as England, per habitant ?
Less than London, more than the west country.
Its also much less than the tax raised in Scotland
cchris2lou
No, more. For good reasons and to the benefit of everyone living in Scotland google Barnett formula.
tjagain,
"less than the tax raised in scotland"
Wow ...
Did you miss the SNP growth report acceptance of GERS and confirmation that an independent Scotland would have a 13Bn (ish) deficit wrt spending vs tax raised?
It was authored by the SNP (despite their best efforts not to release it) and hopefully will be enough to change your mind.
We can wait here while you have a read.
No this is actually my real name. . .
That must have been fun at school.
Eat the Pudding you're a bit out with your claims on the new welfare system. Yes DWP will be administering some benefits until 2020. The new powers according to your own link came into Scottish government hands in 2017 . That would be 3 years , meantime some benefits will be administered under the new system later this year.
gordimhor,
3 not 4 .. OK 🙂
My main pojnt is that they claim to want powers devolved for the benefit of Scotlands people because the current system is cruel.
Then they decide they can't handle them and defer the chance to make any changes for at least 3 years (which is what "DWP administration" means).
There may be good practical reasons for that deferral, but they all look a bit weak in the face of previous claims from the same people that they could build the infrastructure for a whole country in 2 years for £400M.
Whatever way you look at it its not an ideal case to encourage further devolution of powers.
The point about the Growth Commission is that it was trying to show how an Independent Scotland would work economically. It is all very well saying that once Independence has been gained we Scots can vote in any government we like... but how will they change things? How would a Scottish government actually be able to achieve what people want it to achieve.
Politics is the art of the possible & too much of the Yes vote seems to think that ‘anything’ is possible post Independence. Political reality doesn’t just disappear because you’ve got Independence.
5000 new snp members in <24hrs
Maybe other parties should consider walking out of the HOC
It is all very well saying that once Independence has been gained we Scots can vote in any government we like… but how will they change things? How would a Scottish government actually be able to achieve what people want it to achieve.
Politics is the art of the possible & too much of the Yes vote seems to think that ‘anything’ is possible post Independence. Political reality doesn’t just disappear because you’ve got Independence.
For me, not being a Koolaid drinker, the economic argument is just that, a spurious battle of (half)wits that is pretty irrelevant either way.
I'm under no illusion that the glens are paved with gold, we would no doubt have a period of transition that may be financially difficult at first, but in the long term I believe we are intelligent enough to make our own decisions. I am not particularly anti-westminster, but every year that passes it feels further and further away, folks in the north of England feel detached too, it's not just us up here.
I'm in no way blind to the SNP either, indeed, I look forward to the post Yes vote political battle, a re-energised Labour, broken free from their rudderless National counterparts?, What will become of Darling Ruth and her Scots Tories? Lib Dems to become relevant gain? Greens continue their good work and grow?....
What you're asking for is for the next thousand steps to make Scotland become a successful independent country be laid out. The best anyone can do in any country in any process is lay out the next three steps and then go from there. The important thing is that the majority of people agree on the direction.
The difference is that, as part of the UK, those three steps are going to take Scotland in a direction it doesn't want to go (ie keep the foreigners out and damn everything else).
As an independent Scotland can pick it's own direction which, in my opinion, should be moving closer to the Scandinavian model. Not towards whatever the UK is turning into.
tjagain
Nope it is not. Scotland is given a fixed pot of money to spend ( ignoring the piddly amounts it is allowed to raise on its own behalf) NHS is something like half the budget. The scottish government simply cannot put significantly more money into the NHS – it has no way of raising it without huge cuts elsewhere.
It is given proportionately the same as England spends on the NHS as part of that.
It has chosen to give the NHS a smaller % increase.
I know you don't like it,
But its true.
This might help http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
PS and if it was independent it would have 13Bn less to spend (approximately the cost of the NHS). You never did say which bits of society you would cut off to cover the deficit if it becomes a reality?
13Bn is an even bigger chunk of the total spend than I recalled!
(edit for wrong graph)
Maybe other parties should consider walking out of the HOC
Perhaps they should all walk out - of Westminster, Holyrood, councils. Go on a nice holiday somewhere like Pluto.
Then the rest of us could get on with our lives for a while without politicians arsing everything up. I'm pretty sure that, just now, the good that they do in fixing broken things is far outweighed by them breaking things that work fine.
eat the pudding - because of cuts something has to go. Fortunately the SNP have reduced wastage in the Scots NHS by removing all the private / false market nonsense so the scots NHS does more with less. Scots NHS admin costs are 40% of the English NHS. Note the increase in social services spending - that takes pressure of the NHS.
When yo have a fixed and reducing pot of money something has to give.
eat_the_pudding, the economic arguments you are putting up are irrelevant. It's basically how many angels can dance on a pinhead stuff.
Not because the arguments you put forward are incorrect, but simply because you do not know the future, so it is speculation not fact. A future in which circumstances can change overnight.
These are circumstances, some good, some adverse, that have been dealt with by every country that has become independent, yet none want to come back.
Are you implying the Scots out of the hundred plus countries that have become independent of the UK are uniquely incapable of managing their own economy after independence?
Edit: 5,000 plus new members for the SNP in less than 24 hours. Sounds like Scotland is really pissed off now.
Personal experience. Edinburgh has an issue with bed blocking. A number of units have been set up to deal with this - sort of "halfway houses". These units are funded partly or wholly from social services funding despite being inpatient beds run by ( partly or wholly) NHS staff. this spending is coming out of the increased social service budget not the NHS budget. Hence the disparity in the figures Money has been transferred from NHS to social services - as can be seen from your graphs
Isn’t the GERS deficit estimate based on the current situation and not what it could look like under independence, where for example we wouldn’t be wasting billions on the likes of Trident...
We also have the ONS study.
the English deficit looks a wee bit worse than Scotland’s...
Indeed it is Bob - the GERS figures have a lot of criticism attached to them but for political reasons the SNP this time have decide to take them as fact to remove one of the attack lines used agaisnt them last time.
IMO the scots population are mainly in 3 groups each about a third of the population
Idealogical independence supporters who want independence no matter the cost.
Ideological unionists who want the union no matter the cost
Pragmatists who want what would give them and their fellow countryfolk the best lives - this is the group I am in. MY judgement is that an independent Scotland in the EU would provide the best lives for me and my fellow countryfolk. My position was somewhat soft last time round. Its now hardened a lot as a result of the foul xenophobia from Westminster. I want to be no part of Brexit Briton. Its a place I abhor
Added to the mix are those who want out of the UK union and out of the ~EU - a fair amount of the independence side and then there are the unionists who see the EU as more important than the UK - these two groups had a lot of movement in their voting intentions on independence - anecdotally I know of people who last time campaigned for no but who now would vote yes - because they see the descent in xenophobia from England and Brexit as more important than the UK union so despite last time actually campaigning for the union they now would vote YES because of the change in circumstances.
Its a place I abhor
The whole thing? I live here, you know.
However BoardinBob, if Scotland leaves - that deficit will only get worse. Whilst London taxpayers will be able to better prop up the North of England.
But, will they?
This is one of my personal reasons for wanting Scotland to remain in the union… without them the North/South divide is likely to increase. We need your political weight to add to our own (outside the SE of E) to stand any chance of getting a United Kingdom that works for all regions. If Scotland becomes independent, especially if it gets early EEA sign up, the outer regions of England, and Wales, will suffer more than those North of a new border. I haven't mention NI, because if Scotland goes… I see no chance of them staying with us.
Kelvin - one of the reasons I voted yes with a heavy heart last time. I felt like I was abandoning my friends in the north of England
Whilst totally ignoring those in Wales.
I'm glad I'm English living in Cambridgeshire and not oppressed like all you Northern types. Must be horrible. 🙁
Point that I'm trying to make is that TJ is painting it as 'us vs them' geographically. There are lefties all over the country. England isn't all Tory scum, even down South, and Wales certainly isn't.
“I’m glad I’m English living in Cambridgeshire and not oppressed like all you Northern types. Must be horrible“
Youve enough bad shit to deal with in Cambridgshire, such as the total lack of hills, rubbish beer and irritating upper class students the oppressors feel sorry for you and leave you alone.
“Then there are those who can most kindly be referred to as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome”
That reminds me, I forgot to pay you for those paddles!
I felt like I was abandoning my friends in the north of England
I thought we friends in the north of England too. Then their attitudes in the Brexit debate and result changed my perception of them quite substantially.
However BoardinBob, if Scotland leaves – that deficit will only get worse
We currently have the pleasure of a collective £43billion deficit as part of the UK!
MOlgrips - sorry dude - and Wales. I am doing to Wales what scots nationalists accuse the english for doing to scotland - lumping it all in together. Consider me admonished!
You've enough bad shit to deal with in Cambridgeshire, such as the total lack of hills, rubbish beer and irritating upper class students the oppressors feel sorry for you and leave you alone.
Woah there, I will not have you slagging off our beer.
Bexar County and Three Blind Mice are but two exceedingly good breweries (I only mention those two as I know them personally).
Besides, even if we produced no beer our dray is generally delivered by van or lorry. If you ever make it beyond the horse and cart you too could embrace the technology that our county is so famous for. 😛
Glad to see that people have pretty much given up arguing that we'd be financially better off in an independent Scotland. But the idea that there are lots of figures and you "just don't know" is pish.
Next time someone says the economy is going badly in brexit UK, and you mentally make a note because it reinforces your biases, how do you think they come by those figures? Do you disregarded them because they are from the past? Do you tell yourself that they are just bad because brexit hasn't happened fully yet? (Would you laugh at someone who made those arguments?)
The UK has a deficit, but %wise its better than the Scottish one. The deficit isn't real though. Its theoretical because we benefit from pooling and sharing and without 13 Bn to replace that and no economic argument Scottish independence is toast.
edited for crap spelling
The goal of Brexit is to exclude foreigners no matter what it does to the country. You can argue economic details about how bad it is for the economy but it is always going to be a bad thing and something Scotland should get as far away as possible from.
Incidentally, the 13 bn is from August last year when the oil price was around $50. It's now around $75 so can we accept that the deficit is no longer 13 bn? Last year the oil industry brought in £208 million whereas in 2012 (oil price around $100) it brought in £8 billion.
So if the next report comes out and the deficit is below the UK's as a whole you'll then be in favour of independence?
By the way, I agree that the deficit is theoretical. It refers to a Scotland within a union which has little to do with an independent Scotland.
Actually eat the pudding that is the true position - we really don't know and for every economist we ask we get a differnt answer. My belief is that for decades financial policy for England has held Scotland back and without that brake after a period of readjustment Scotland would outperform England. Note the point about oil prices as well.
Scotlands economy has been rubbish under westminster rule - so your argument cuts both ways. Why continue with something that evidently is not working. remind me how well the UK economy is doing?
Whilst London taxpayers will be able to better prop up the North of England.
London taxpayers aren't propping up anyone. The rest of the UK is propping up London. That's the way the system is designed, all resources are drained from everywhere else and pumped into London. This is why 9 out of the top 10 most deprived places in Western Europe are in the UK.
The goal of Brexit is to exclude foreigners no matter what it does to the country.
No, it's to leave the European Union.
No, it’s to leave the European Union.
Yes, in order to end freedom of movement.
This is why 9 out of the top 10 most deprived places in Western Europe are in the UK
Source? And how would you rectify Londons dominance, do you think it has been done on purpose or because of Londons geographical position as being not only the capital but close in terms of trade links to mainland Europe? How do you suggest the North attracts more global investment and make it an attractive place for ambitious professionals to move to, over say.... London, Melbourne, New York, Geneva, Silicon Valley.....when have you ever heard of a vibrant tech company that says.....you know what.... let's move to ****ing Doncaster. They'd haemorrhage staff and investors, where buisnesses base themselves is often every bit about image and lifestyle as it is the economics.
Germany has thrown a **** tonne of cash at Eastern Germany for seemingly no or very little gain.
Anway, the North likes to complain about London, but without it, we'd be Greece.
And how would you rectify Londons dominance, do you think it has been done on purpose or because of Londons geographical position as being not only the capital but close in terms of trade links to mainland Europe?
Of course it's been done on purpose! Jesus Christ, have you just landed here from another planet?
Don't feed the troll
Of course it’s been done on purpose! Jesus Christ, have you just landed here from another planet?
The deindustrialisation of the North was well on it's way during and after WW1, the Great depression and WW2. Maggie et al just prodded it over a cliff. Unfortunately, the North hasn't had any industrialists with the foresight to help it keep up with the changing global economy. Besides that, my experience with having family up there and of the brexit vote - is that they have no intention of wanting or trying to anyway.
Ahem.......
