Anyway, what will Scotland base it's economy on? Tax dodging, whisky and dwindling oil? Sounds great. I bet all the fellow lefties in Scotland will feel....reaallly included by that economy.
midge exports
Can the areas that did not vote for Brexit club together to form a new country with a new name, no flag or national anthem, and petition to rejoin the EU?
Yes, in order to end freedom of movement.
No, that's not axiomatic.
athgray be a bit of a funny country but why not? Remain bits of the rUK can join Scotland if you want. we could call it the "Republic of Scotland and the Sensible Parts."
If nothing else this map shows how divergent scotland is from the rest of the UK
<div class="bbp-reply-author">raybanwomble
<div class="bbp-author-role">
<div class="">Member</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="bbp-reply-content">Anyway, what will Scotland base it’s economy on? Tax dodging, whisky and dwindling oil? Sounds great. I bet all the fellow lefties in Scotland will feel….reaallly included by that economy.
</div>
Yeah, that’s all we’ve got up here. Oh, I forgot about deep fried food. That’s our number 1 industry.
its a shame England can’t find a way to monetise sanctimonious ****s. They could make a fortune down there
It certainly would be a funny looking country tjagain, and obviously not possible, however remember if the map was scaled for population density there is a lot of yellow in the South. Newcastle could stay by the skin of its teeth which pleases me.
scaled by population - an even funnier looking country
"economists opinions differ"
"independence would be different"
blah blah
You sound like climate change deniers with their "some scientists say" broken record.
Be in favour of independence by all means, but lying about the, let's say, "challenges" of the Scottish economy will do you no favours.
You might be prepared to face 10 or 20 years of austerity max (Westminster austerity was, for comparison, about 1or 2 billion in cuts for a few years followed by rises. See graph above) but at least be honest about with yourself about what 13 Bn (ish) of austerity will do to the the poor and vulnerable in Scotland.
Westminster austerity was far greater than that. YOu know if you aske half a dozen economists a question you get half a dozen different answers.
Yes the budget would be tight for a few years while the damage of tory rule is undone. We know that. What we also know is continued tory rule will destroy the fabric of the country irrevocably and we also know tory policy prevents scotland growing
Its utter nonsense to say that scotland is incapable of being a rich independent country. It has advantages that many rich independent countries do not have.
athgray be a bit of a funny country but why not? Remain bits of the rUK can join Scotland if you want. we could call it the “Republic of Scotland and the Sensible Parts.”
If nothing else this map shows how divergent scotland is from the rest of the UK
To be honest, I'd be alright with Scotland and London floating off into the sea together - preferably somewhere warm.
"few years"
Still haven't read Nicola's report eh?
All the stuff you've been denying is in there; massive austerity for 10 years (that's the good scenario powered by dreams) and out of Europe until economy / deficit improves.
I'm retiring until you read the report and I don't have to make Sturgeons arguments for her.
Brexit is bad. Independence is brexit squared.
The merits of independence can (and will) be argued until the cows come home, but you can't argue at how badly the Scotland (and Wales and NI) have been treated in the brexit discussions so far, and Scotland in general since the indy ref.
Germany has thrown a **** tonne of cash at Eastern Germany for seemingly no or very little gain.
Er…Eastern Germany has been transformed economically. Of course, what they really need now, is a large influx of immigrants for the workforce, for any further progress. There's a population hole due to people moving from East to West before the investment had a chance to kick in. There are some extra parallels with Scotland there.
Everyone has been treated badly by this brexit luvin government. But Independence is not the cure.
the 13 billion is not in the SNPs document - thats using the badly flawed GERS figures that as you should know underestimate Scotlands tax base enormously. there has been plenty of analysis of why GERS paints a bleaker than true figure but that does not fit your ideology
https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/eastern-germany-experience-economic-miracle
Still a bit of a mixed bag Kelvin. How do you think East Germany would have fared with a more hands off aporoach? Considerably worse or mildly?
Considerably worse. The flight of young workers would never have abated.
A link to add to yours… says much the same thing as yours, but with far more breadth.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2015/10/02/germanys-reunification-25-years-on
Jebus Cribst. You do know (because I've told you several times) that GERS is produced by the Scottish Government, by Nicola's own statisticians. You've never explained why she supports this Westminster trickery. Or why the moves to improve these stats a few years ago (overseen by SG and the aforementioned statisticians) were apparently less insightful about the Scottish economy than.... you.
Just you.
There was even an FOI to the SG statistics dept. asking what information was being withheld by Westminster. Guess the answer?
Spoiler..... none.
Believe what you like. Your bias is showing in calling Sturgeon "Nicola" - patronising
GERs is produced using standard methods that pre-date the creation of holyrood by decades. It underestimates scottish tax income and overestimates spending excluding tax revenues that would accrue to an independent Scotland and including cost that would not be accrued by an independent scotland.
I could show you much academic and rigorous analysis independent of the SNP that shows this but I understand its pointless as it does not fit your narrative. Its useful as a comparison year on year. It is useless as a predictor of Scotlands finances if Scotland were independent
I am no ideological independence supporter. But I am capable of reading wide ranging analysis and deciding where the truth lies. the truth is Scotand would have a deficit but its far less than 13 billion per year. ONe set of accounting shows Scotland raises 9.9% of the UKs tax base. I don't believe that either.
MOst of the data for GERS comes from westminster
Most of it is estimates - you should look into the methodology
Your bias is showing in calling Sturgeon “Nicola” – patronising
Errr.. Jezza, Boris etc?
TJ
Still no explanation of how Nicola (RU for real?) has fallen for this obvious chicanery then?
Still nothing on how her best and brightest failed to spot the things that are so obvious to you and so many other true believers?
I put forward two possible explanations:
1) Theresa (!) has compromat of her spilling irn bru on a hotel mattress.
2) You genuinely know more than Nicola does about the Scottish economy.
As for all this stuff about things fitting "my own narrative" I think that's called projection.
TJ you can have your own opinions but not your own facts. Read the (SNP) report.
Its facts don't fit your narrative (tho' it's put forward in a very positive way), but then maybe we can have a reasonable discussion over whether squaring the effects of brexit might be too much for Scotlands poor.
TTFN
PS the misread 'insult' of using Nicola's name reads like a warning that you don't like what I say so you're veering towards attacking me instead. Nice.
“Anyway, what will Scotland base it’s economy on? Tax dodging, whisky and dwindling oil? Sounds great. I bet all the fellow lefties in Scotland will feel….reaallly included by that economy.”
Well, to start with we’re a small county of what 5.5 million, for context the London Metro area has around 14 million people.
So straight from the off we don’t need a big world beating economy. Just one that in the long term provides a decent living to those that live here.
As to what that economy consists of, of the top of my head, a mix of land based industries, tech, financial, manufacturing (yes including Whisky), tourism, with a splash of declining oil production.
Again, none of those need to be particularly large on a global or even regional scale. Because we’re not a large country.
eat_the_pudding
...Still nothing on how her best and brightest failed to spot the things that are so obvious to you and so many other true believers?...
And there we have it, the demeaning insult. The sneer from the superior Unionist.
Apparently it is cultish to want your country to be run by the people living in it, and not by those next door.
Apparently, unlike all the other countries that have gained independence, we will be unable to manage our own economy.
Apparently, we will stick rigidly to a proposal put forward by one political party regardless of what government we vote for after independence.
The arguments against independence all add up to "You're too wee, too stupid, too poor" but couched in more polysyllabic words.
And there we have it, the demeaning insult. The sneer from the superior Unionist.
If you don't like it, reflect on your own behaviour in this thread.
Apparently it is cultish to want your country to be run by the people living in it, and not by those next door.
It isn't.
Hi epicyclo (waves)
I thought TJ was the only one reading my posts looking for something to take personally (Like calling a woman called Nicola Nicola with malice aforethought!) so that he could disregard any further points I made.
But it looks like you got in too.. Yay for you!
For what its worth I don't think "true believer" is an insult when applied in this context.
What else would you call those who continue to deny uncomfortable economic facts which have now been (quietly) accepted even by the SNP?
People who insist that economics is mince and GERS is an estimate (the horror), but spent 2014 arguing that we could be one of the top (?) richest countries in the world based on what Salmond called the gold plated GERS statistics?
People who get all het up and emotional about the poor and disadvantaged people of Scotland, but think that the costs of independence and the austerity involved would be a price worth [them] paying for a generation (or 5 depending on the length of a Scottish Standard Generation these days).
Brexit is idiotic and destructive, but Independence is worse, for the very same reasons (squared).
If you see one but not the other .. it may be because you are a true believer©.
But as Brexit has shown, it is not all about the economy.
Well, I don't think we're the only ones ignoring things on this thread.
You still haven't responded to my point that the deficit is almost certainly no longer 13 BN (receipts from oil revenue 208 million last year vs 8 billion in 2012, oil price at $50 last year vs $75 now vs $100 in 2012).
Presumably as soon as the oil price goes back up you'll be in favour of independence. Or are you a unionist because you're a 'true believer' and there is no conceivable situation that would make you support independence?
You keep saying that independence would be 'idiotic squared' despite providing no explanations about how this would be so. You completely ignored the fact that EEA membership would allow us to maintain close relations with both the UK and the EU.
So tell us, is there any situation you could see yourself supporting independence or are you a 'true believer'?
PS. I've been trying to practice sneering for the last minute or two.
I honestly don't think I can carry it off without giggling, but I can raise a single eyebrow if that would help?
As I explained - I am not a true believer. I am pragmatic not ideologically bound.
YOu say that even the SNP has accepted the economic facts - as have I. times would be tough for a few years But 13 bullion deficit is nonsense
Unlike you tho I have my eyes open, I listen to various sources including the SNP - the 13 billion deficit is nonsense for a whole variety of reasons - try reading the stuff from the SNP #Try reading reposrts from internationally known economists. try rading stuff from a variety of sources It underestimates scotlands tax base and includes a lot of spending that would not come to an independent scotland.
But unlike you I am able to do two things - read widely and sceptically. I have seen for example one analysis that shows Scotlands tax receipts to be 9.9% of the UK which of course would have us in massive surplus from day one. I don't believe that either.
It would be nice if you could stop being so patronising and had an open mind and were capable of listening
There may well be less money in the pot after independence. This could be for 5 years or for 500 years. It doesn't really matter to me or to many others, there will be enough. What does matter is how and where that money is spent. Under independence 100% of it will be controlled by the Scottish government. If one particular government ****s that up, it will be easier to replace them with another than it is currently where we do not have control over 100%.
It's not a difficult concept and a very easy choice for me.
eat_the_pudding
...What else would you call those who continue to deny uncomfortable economic facts which have now been (quietly) accepted even by the SNP?...
That's the too poor argument. As used against Malta, etc, etc, etc
Problems can be overcome, unless of course, you're too stupid.
Scots are well aware of the likely costs. It's less than the price we will have too pay if we stay in the Union. We won't need nukes, we won't be waging foreign wars, we will be maintaining our NHS.
As for being a believer, please explain to me what is undesirable about not wanting your country ruled by another.
It doesn’t really matter to me or to many others, there will be enough
So for you, it's worth turning yourselves into a poor country to be free from tyranny?
I wonder, have you ever lived in a poor country?
Apparently it is cultish to want your country to be run by the people living in it, and not by those next door.
That's just populist and nationalist crap. Scotland is represented in Westminster. The English and Welsh have had Scottish PMs and there are loads of Scots in all branches of government. You're just a nationalist. And nationalism isn't a good look, and it gets even more ridiculous when you look at history.
Can someone tell me what exactly is so special about that line on the map?
I'm not sure if the folk on this thread who are in favour of independence are the ones who are 'True Believers'. Some have switched from No to Yes. Some describe themselves as reluctant Yes voters. Almost all can envisage a situation that would make them switch from Yes to No.
So if you're a No voter and you don't consider yourself a True Believer, can you describe a situation that would persuade you to vote Yes?
We won't be poor. There will be enough money if it is spent properly.
To me, nationalist has come to mean getting rid of foreigners. Independence is about getting away from a country that has adopted that mindset and is rapidly forcing that reality on us.
If it was really that expensive to subsidise Scotland then the conservatives would have been trying to make it happen for years to get some nice juicy tax cuts.
Maybe it's just because we're fed up of this sort of stuff...
[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1751/42762326172_4c78f7b612_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1751/42762326172_4c78f7b612_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
molgrips
So for you, it’s worth turning yourselves into a poor country to be free from tyranny?
I wonder, have you ever lived in a poor country?...
Yes, desperately poor.
Strangely enough it was ruled by Westminster.
It got its independence in the 1960s, it's still not a rich country, but none of the people there want Westminster rule again.
BTW Scotland is not a poor country. That is the big Unionist lie.
As for Scotland being represented in Westminster, representation is meaningless if you are ignored, and that is what the walk out was about.
Like I said, have a word with Nicola.
If these sources you describe were relevant or positive would they not have been asked to write a chapter in the SNP report?
So I'm sorry to bang on about it, but the SNPs acceptance of the size and extent of the economic reality speaks louder than your refusal.
As does the SG statistics department.
I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just providing a counterpoint to you talking up independence using a false prospectus of a "few years" of austerity
With that level of discourse, you might as well write it on the side of a bus.
Side question; Will this be the kind of austerity that kills disabled people and causes food banks or some sort of unicorn powered rainbow austerity?
PS A quick look up sees me described as; demeaning, superior, sneering, closed minded, patronising, unread, unsceptical, unlistening, a sock puppet and a troll.
Does that beat "true believer" on the personal poke front? Asking for a friend, answers on a postcard.
epicycloMaybe it’s just because we’re fed up of this sort of stuff…
Yeah, that account looks really legit doesn't it.
I don't know what skeletons he may have in his closet, if he does I am sure someone will tell me, however watching QT last night I was impressed with Dominic Grieve. Spoke very sensibly on Brexit, and displayed sympathy with the conditions that drove the SNP to walk out if not the walk out itself as a protest method. Leanne Wood pointed out that had the SNP not done it then we would not be talking about it now. So I would agree with Rene on page 1 that it had its desired effect.
Another fanciful wish from me would have been if the SNP drop its independence stance and stand UK wide. There is no appetite for it sadly, however could have been interesting in the face of a whithering Labour party.
People are switching from no to undecided, and from undecided to yes on Scottish indy, and I am fairly certain there are few if any going the other way. I am far more likely to be pragmatic this time around. I am far more likely to take heed of the views of people like Henry McLeish or reluctant voters as the people that may add a degree of common sense to the indy side.
Regarding common sense, having been someone else who lost a close friend recently in the cull described by the OP, I am another that finds his 'Us and Them'' mentality and depth of grievance, extremely unhelpful and off putting, and no more than Brexit under a different flag.
UK politicians have themselves to blame for the shit storm in which we currently reside. This need not have been the case.
eat_the_pudding, you still haven't said, are you a True Believer or not?
If not, under what conditions would you consider voting for independence?
As for being a believer, please explain to me what is undesirable about not wanting your country ruled by another.
It isn't.
