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Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason
You might have missed it with all the whataboutery you've been flinging about, but police haven't been doing much tear-gassing, baton-charging or shooting rubber bulleting of looters.
don’t think there is much credibility left to lose
That depends on your point of view. Are you a white, middle class person who can phone the police and report a black person acting suspiciously and get them stopped, searched and removed from the area?
Or are you a young black delivery driver who sees the curtains twitching and wonders how trigger/taser/chokehold-happy the police officers that have just been sent to investigate you will be?
Sorry bails, credibility of the police and their handlers. I don’t see how they can backtrack out of this. Complaints of violence met with violence that propagates more violence etc. My point of view is neither of the above. It’s that unchecked violence and racism from people that are supposed to protect and serve needs to end. I don’t think it will though. The US seems to be entrenched in this pseudo military mindset. America, **** Yeah!
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason. It’s potentially much more consequential to life and property than the death of one person. The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake
If it was the reaction to the death of one person, you might have a point, but it isn't. It's about the systematic in built racsim that has yet to be properly challenged in the US Here's Martin Luther King Jr making the point much more eloquently than I can from 50 years ago...
The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake. All successful societies have treated rioting and mass unrest in the same way.
Whereas I would propose that a society with rioting and mass unrest is not a successful society.
It’s about the systematic in built racsim
That is such a general and arguably slippery concept that it's very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.
I've heard many people speaking about systemic racism recently but I feel hardly any of them could speak eloquently about what it is.
What I don’t get is why protests here need to escalate. Not looking for a fight, @dazh sounds like one for you.
Not sure why this is directed at me but always happy to provide an opinion. The issues in the US are present here. The main difference is that here in the UK we're much better at cloaking our racism in a veil of british politeness and ignorance. It won't be police brutality here which sparks things off, it will be government incompetence and indifference to a black and working class population who are disproportionately suffering both physically and economically from covid.
it’s very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.
Stop and search and prison population figures would disagree with you.
That is such a general and arguably slippery concept that it’s very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.
Systematic racism had been examined before - knock yourself out
That is one particular instance of institutional racism which took a great deal of time and effort to unpack. In contrast, the protestors want some general and systemic racism dismantling but can't say what that actually looks like.
Stop and search and prison population figures would disagree with you.
So what laws and policies do you want?
Fair and just ones applied fairly. To much to ask? Laws and ploicies that make the police accountable for their actions would be a good start, and laws to limit what action they are allowed to take to arrest supects. The disproportionate use of force for whatever reason is at the core of this and then it's discrimately directed at some sections of the community due to a culture of racism that is present in every place I've ever been on earth to some degree.
Without knowing the colour of the "looters" and much more about the incident there's not much to be learned from that story. Was he killed because he was black (racist attack)? Was he armed and threatening the looters? Was he being paid to defend the shop? Was he wearing any kind of uniform?
Fair and just ones applied fairly. To much to ask? Laws and ploicies that make the police accountable for their actions would be a good start, and laws to limit what action they are allowed to take to arrest supects.
You still aren't answering the question. Tell me what specific laws and policies you want.
This lack of clarity is emblematic of the whole protest especially in the UK where a tiny number per year die in police custody or otherwise at hands of police.
I'm white/middle class/middle-aged. Only interactions with the Police have been, unsurprisingly, stress-free. Even as a youth getting moved on for skateboarding, I wasn't scared and they never threatened me. I've been to countries where I've been a visible ethnic minority, and also not really felt threatened.
So, I know I've got privileges that other people don't have. I'm not going to pretend that I understand the race issues in the US personally, but I reckon I've got enough empathy to see how bad it is for people over there. I don't have answers, I don't know what to do other than try and do the right thing where I can. Other people think different things, to an extent that's cool but full-on racism obviously isn't.
What I don't understand is points of view such as those of @rydster. I'm trying to understand it but it seems like you're saying the BLM movement should just stop, because there's nothing wrong? Do you genuinely think that they're making a fuss over nothing? The killing and brutality they're facing isn't happening? I'm sorry, not winding you up, just trying to understand your POV. I don't get the point you're trying to make?
Tell me what specific laws and policies you want.
Or what, if people can't you won the internet argument? I would imagine that there are reams of treaties, statute, laws, judgements. tribunals and so on and on that deal with racism. Heck, even I've had to sack some-one because of it (and I'm willing to bet that person still to this day doesn't really think they are/were a racist)
Most of the people protesting probably couldn't tell you what they want beyond asking the cops not to murder them...Institutional racism isn't defeated by law or policies, it's defeated by education and acceptance.
Institutional racism isn’t defeated by law or policies, it’s defeated by education and acceptance.
Is it? The Stephen Lawrence inquiry made recommendations of which 67 led to specific changes in the practice of the law.
Certainly, the US has obvious problems with policing but I'm speaking about the UK specifically. Like I said, many say they want systemic racism dismantled but they can't really say what that is or what it being dismantled looks like. How will we know what it's been achieved?
1. Not having all of the answers refutes the problem.
2. Not fully articulating the problem refutes the problem.
So what is the demand?
You still going with that one? Impressive staying power.
Jeez. One prominent poster in this thread can go belay underneath a climber that's taken a massive dose of Picolax.
#@*% racism/racists and those that excuse it/them.
So what is the demand?
Equality.
This is obvious, surely?
Hi @rydster, sorry if you missed this. I’m trying to understand your point - it seems like you’re saying the BLM movement should just stop, because there’s nothing wrong? Do you genuinely think that they’re making a fuss over nothing? The killing and brutality they’re facing isn’t happening? I’m sorry, not winding you up, just trying to understand your POV. I don’t get the point you’re trying to make?
Equality.
This is obvious, surely?
And what is that?
I'm just trying to interrogate what they want is all I'm doing.
And what is that?
This is dull and tedious now, you know exactly what it means...Look here you are describing it on page 1 of this thread.
not just the unnecessary (and probably sadistic) use of force but its symbolic value of a black man virtually under the boot of a white cop.
That you choose to troll a thread about racism isn't a good look TBH.
surely, rydster is simply a racist? or at least a racist apologist?
Reading between the lines, I'd say what we have here is a classic case of white man insecurity and jealousy. White people matter too you know! Why do the blacks get all the attention? It's political correctness gone mad etc..
Funny, having a forum name that rhymes with rydster is making me feel all dirty.
Makes me want to sign out and come back as the artist formerly known as inkster, anything to create as much distance as I can from people like him.
^^ +1 dazh
It's not a problem of policing, they're doing what they've been trained and equipped for. From the bits of footage I've seen they all seem to be acting pretty much in the same way. This pushing people over, in the US and the UK, seems nasty and new. All you need to do with the bar cuffs is sit the person against the wheel of a vehicle, they can be completely immobilised with a hand on the shoulder. What would motivate you to you kneel on someone's neck?
@rydster
If you haven't seen this on the other thread, have a read and you might get an idea what people are after.
The violence and police brutality are just the tip of the ice burg. Equality is people not making judgments based on the colour of someone.
Laws and policies do not solve this - it is the attitude of the general population that needs to change.
it is the attitude of the general population that needs to change.
So why protest to the government then?
I've agreed several times that the US police too easily resorts to violence and that black men disproportionately suffer. It seems there is scope for SMART demands here and changes for the better. OTOH when it comes to the UK, and especially the talk of ending some sort of generalised racism called 'systemic racism' the ground beneath the feet isn't so solid. I'm just very suspicious of people asking for some generalised and nebulous change which they can barely articulate. Piecemeal and measurable/achievable demands I commend.
So why protest to the government then?
Because the government can lead education of the general population.
I think thete's quite a bit of this about;
https://twitter.com/asgrdicns/status/1267899014441246727?s=19
I’m just very suspicious of people asking for some generalised and nebulous change
People are asking (or demanding) equality, this has been obvious since the emancipation of the slaves, that's an interesting turn of phrase you've used, what d'you mean; suspicious?
People are asking (or demanding) equality, this has been obvious since the emancipation of the slaves, that’s an interesting turn of phrase you’ve used, what d’you mean; suspicious?
That just begs another question; what does the equality you demand actually look like?
Equality like justice doesn't self-define.
A qualified or specified equality like equal voting rights, for example, is different. That can be formalised.
Seriously?
what does the equality you demand actually look like?
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
I don't know why you don't just ignore him, he's clearly trolling to elicit a response.
Has anyone seen if the medical examiner who covered up the murder has been charged? I have seen the the police officers that stood around watching have been charged, but nothing about the examiner who submitted the false report.
That must be a problem for the justice system now, to be so willing to lie like that, even after it has become national news, to give the police the answers they wanted rather than the truth, must call into dispute any evidence he has ever submitted. There could be thousands of unsafe convictions now, even when he was telling the truth, who is now to know.
And the other ones that were hit and aren’t lying?
Oh right, clearly justified to fabricate the story,because of 'other people'.
Take a look at his non injuries before reporting that he was hit by one. Then compare the girl in an induced coma and you will see one is a horrific injury, the other a slight bruise about 1" long under one eye.
The Reporter is fabricating the injury, implying it is something it isnt, in order to elevate his standing as a member of the public recording on a mobile into an on the spot reporter, no doubt with twitter and facebook.
I want the truth, not fabricated lies.
I honestly cannot fathom why you are trying to protect such behaviour.
Just seen this on LinkedIn, for me this sums up the reality of the situation more than anything.
People are not just discriminated against by intentional actions,but also by structural bias.
The only way to resolve this is to ensure everyone has value and also the support to achieve without bias.
How we do this I don't know, but surely the start is to understand and at least acknowledge it.
rydster
Member
You do realise you are showing yourself up on this thread, aye?