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Fine, but if you are going to break it then own and take responsibility for what comes after.
Fine, but if you are going to break it then own and take responsibility for what comes after.
What comes after is a massive "Law and Order" crackdown ordered by elites and and carried out against the population by either a massively tooled up militarised police, or the actual military...
I wonder if this is a new phenomenon?
Why US cops are just so trigger happy
He's not the cause. The fact that he exists and gets work talking to police is a symptom of a fundamental issue in America that's deeper than police.
Claims that tear gas wasn’t used against protesters is yet another lie, or at least twisting the truth:
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/2/21278559/tear-gas-white-house-protest-park-police
Imagine you live in a society where at any point you go outside, you might be targeted for murdered by the Police in broad daylight, with total impunity and with the consent of their colleagues merely because of the colour of your skin
There are certainly problems but that is sheer demagoguery and I would suggest the kind of ‘narrative’ which helps nobody. You make it sound like the police are death squads. The stats show that the police sometimes kill members of all races.
Heavy emphasis on SOMETIMES.
And I would also suggest that you should actually read links provided and do some research into how the police work in America, particularly the limited liability law passed in 1982, which gives the police pretty much carte blanche to do what the hell they want with virtually no reprisals, and it’s a fact that black and Latino communities suffer far more from excessive heavy-handed police actions including shootings by the police for no reason, like the woman shot six times in her bed after the police mistakenly entered her apartment, and many other killings; not for nothing is the expression ’shot for breathing or walking while black’ commonly used in America.
I use Flipboard, a news aggregator that shows news reports from all over the world, particularly America, and I see so many reports of black and Latino communities being brutalised by the police. Of course white and Asian people, and First Nations people as well suffer from heavy-handed police actions, but it’s also no coincidence that those communities are among the poorest. Look into how the police in America get their funding, for a clue into their treatment of poorer people.
He’s not the cause.
I think broadly one has to accept that fundamentally the reason so many cops in the US react the way they do is largely down to training given by Lt Col Grossman, as he's the sole "Expert" in the field of Killology.
He's not responsible for the overt racism or gun culture though I agree.
Worth a bit of a look at the sort of escort Angry Tinkerbell had when he was poncing around in front of the church as well...
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33818/about-that-huge-rifle-the-secret-service-sniper-was-carrying-during-trumps-photo-op-walk
Watching the 82nd being moved to Andrews reminds me of the Paras going to Derry.
Neither unit is/was trained for civil unrest. If saner heads don’t prevail this could end very, very, very badly indeed..
Serious question,
how much money is spent equipping a single ‘police officer’ to appear like a full military equipped soldier?
I guess alot more than is spent on a nurses PPE.
Evidence shows that when it comes to lethal force all races get it equally, or at least there is no conclusive evidence of bias. When it comes to non-lethal does there seems to be a bias towards minorities.
It’s a ny times article based on actual research:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.amp.html
I think we should thank rydster for introducing every racist trope in the book into the conversation. Every bit of whataboutary that he can muster. He's highlighting the problem by being part of the problem and his presence on here provides a pivot for the conversation, reminding us just how ignorant most of the population are, both in the US and Europe.
As for wether there's even a fraction of the 25 Republicans needed with enough integrity or courage to do that? Here in the UK we've lived with a Tory party that has shown little integrity for decades, yet they've dumped 2 Prime Minister's at the drop of a hat in my lifetime.
It's not about Republicans showing courage or integrity, it's about opportunity and individual political ambition. I bet most elected republicans would love get rid of Trump, install Pence and then fight the next election on a Pence / Hailey ticket.
Claims that tear gas wasn’t used against protesters is yet another lie, or at least twisting the truth:
Its being pedantic to try and avoid accountability. It wont be tear gas but something like pepper spray instead which, for anyone on the receiving end, will make sod all difference.
The only way to deal with mass looting is to address the problems that caused mass looting. That starts with not breaking the contract with the public.
The first article of that contract is that the government promises to take care of your security and safety. This part of the contract has been denied to black and poor Americans. Looting is the most visceral symbol of the government's failure to provide security and more articulate than any words.
Let's not forget that millions of Americans are denied their voting rights trough Republican led voter suppression, so they don't even get a chance to look at the contract let alone sign it. The State thus identifies citizens as illegal aliens in their own country. If you are denied your voting rights then by definition you have no civic responsibly because you have been excluded from civic society.
Scruff,
The serious answer to your question is that it is dependent on how much money an individual police department can extort from the public through fines. This is what pays for all the cos-play s***. Funding for police equipment and health care supplies doesn't come from central budgets in the same way that it does in the UK.
Don't think of the US police in the same way as you would most other countries. Everything, including laws differs from state to state and department to department. There's something like 18,000 different police departments across the US, each with their own rules, like states within states. They're organised more like possess or militias than how we conventionally think of police forces.
Also, the US has enormous amounts of surplus military kit, which gets sold off cheaply to police forces- it can be cheaper than purpose-designed police kit.
But yes, to steal a tweet, this is a country that proudly equips their police like soldiers but doesn't equip its nurses like nurses
The president is going to speak
https://twitter.com/Strandjunker/status/1268196450099486720?s=19
Trumps going to erupt 😀
The president is going to speak
I need to watch that, Obama’s going to accidentally end up back in power if he’s not careful.
Bad news re London, do people not realise criminal activity undermines the credibility of good work that people want to do
Kryton57
SubscriberI need to watch that, Obama’s going to accidentally end up back in power if he’s not careful.
can only do 2 terms.
can only do 2 terms.
Rules are there to be broken. How many people right now do you think would vote Obama back in?
The 'protest' in London doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Domestic politics in the US and especially the legacies of slavery there aren't our business, and you have a weak case when your version of Rodney King or George Floyd is Mark Duggan who was an armed criminal.
I should imagine quite a few things don't make any sense to you
and you have a weak case when your version of Rodney King or George Floyd is Mark Duggan
Our version of systemic racism by authority is recently highlighted by the windrush scandal, sending British citizens to die homeless and friendless in a foreign country, and despite all the publicity and public outcry, the government never righted the wrongs committed.
The ‘war’ in Europe doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Domestic politics in Germany and Poland and the legacies of the First World War aren't our business....
Shut up.
Ignore the troll
FFS..
Actually sod it, I'm not going to let that idiot get in my way.
Solidarity, allies, whatever, I get it. I really do. What I don't get is why protests here need to escalate. Not looking for a fight, @dazh sounds like one for you.
An interesting look at how wearing paramilitary gear changes the relationship with the police.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90512090/the-twisted-psychology-of-militarized-police-uniforms
The ‘protest’ in London doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
No shit, Sherlock.
but I know they shouldn’t be using tear gas and rubber bullets against peaceful protesters and journalists
Would the rubber bullet reference be from this morning ?, with an interview of a journalist being hit in the eye by a rubber bullet.
Watched that and I've also seen first hand in NI what a rubber bullet does when it hits someone and from the small mark on the guys face, It looked more like someones cuff did it. A rubber bullet in the face and he wouldnt be able to speak.
Also, he was reported as an amateur reporter, rather than affiliated with anyone so yuo got the impression he was just some bloke taking pictures on his mobile and who got involved in a scuffle.
Live link to Obama speech on policing and protests below, starts soon
Two reporters hit with possible rubber bullets...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.insider.com/black-lives-matter-protesters-journalists-hurt-disabled-police-rubber-bullets-2020-6%3famp
I also saw a CNN video of the police firing rubber bullets at people stood by their front door. Rubber bullet hit a young female in the leg. ( probably late teens or early twenties so had no idea if I said young girl if I’d be seen as trying to make it sound worse)
Another report of a police rubber bullet shooting, this time a grandmother.
Here are some consequences of maliciously undermining police authority:
Police heard comments such as 'you are not letting him breathe' and 'I saw officers stamp on his neck' - even when 'the detained male was sat up on the ground'.
Would the rubber bullet reference be from this morning ?, with an interview of a journalist being hit in the eye by a rubber bullet.
Two days ago a journalist named Linda Tirado lost her sight in an eye to one. What point are you trying to make exactly?
Count zero,
Reminds me of an old advert for the British army where some UK soldiers were on a UN posting somewhere in Africa and they rendered a potentially volatile scene two ways, one with sunglasses on and one with sunglasses off.
It would be as difficult to take away many an American policeman's shades as to take away their gun.
Remember Cartman in the South Park Cool Hand Luke skit...
'RESPECT MY AUTHORATAH'
Rioters have managed to piss off Chicago Latin kings(cartel backed btw).
If this continues this is not going to end well:
The rioting and looting in liberal/democrat run cities destroying business in many cases owned and run by minorities seems like a counterproductive effort.
The rioting and looting in liberal/democrat run cities destroying business in many cases owned and run by minorities seems like a counterproductive effort.
It’s pretty much inevitable that this should happen, for obvious reasons I shouldn’t need to explain.
For some historical context into the anger that festers in American Black communities, if anyone here hasn’t watched it the HBO series Watchmen is worth checking out, if only for the opening episode. What that showed wasn’t fiction, it was an example of the extreme racism that America is capable of, and which most Americans don’t know about because it’s been buried, I’d never heard of it, I thought it was made up for the story, but it’s fact. Tulsa 1921, look it up, it could happen again.
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/hbo-watchmen-rewatch-2020
I would contest that it has been buried, the Wikipedia entry shows that, a bipartisan factfinding committee was formed in the late 60s. I don’t think anyone would contest that America has an extremely racist past.
For some historical context into the anger that festers in American Black communities, if anyone here hasn’t watched it the HBO series Watchmen is worth checking out, if only for the opening episode. What that showed wasn’t fiction, it was an example of the extreme racism that America is capable of, and which most Americans don’t know about because it’s been buried, I’d never heard of it, I thought it was made up for the story, but it’s fact. Tulsa 1921, look it up, it could happen again.
That's not in living memory for almost anyone alive today. How that justifies looting consumer goods from stores is a mystery.
If your response is
"it's a shame that man was murdered by the police, but this rioting must be stopped at all costs"
and not:
"it's a shame about the rioting, but having people being murdered by the police must be stopped at all costs"
You need to have a long look at yourself in the mirror.
My response is neither of them.
The US can definitely do more to reduce the number of deaths at the hands of police but it can never eliminate this from happening.
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason. It's potentially much more consequential to life and property than the death of one person. The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake. All successful societies have treated rioting and mass unrest in the same way. A Hobbesian world is an ugly one, much more ugly even than an overzealous police. Just looks at what happened in Iraq and Libya for example recently.
What point are you trying to make exactly?
That he wasn't actually hit by a rubber bullet and is lying to get a bit of air time ?
The overwhelming response in my opinion is protests are justified. US police needs reform in the way it polices poor areas and how it deals internally with police officers that are not up to standard. What is not justified is rioting, looting and sacking.
baboonz - I would not contest your view that America has an extremely racist past but that is irrelevant.
The point is it has a very racist present; a president who is a white supremacist hiding in plain view, unable to openly condemn white on black violence.
Police subject to little effective control.
Fake news - aka ignorance - dominates the *news* agenda for too many; there is an
ever-increasing number of the hard of thinking in the US - and in the UK; polarised views; populism and nationalism reign.
A clear inability to accept that other views exist.
In a mature democracy, everyone's voice should be heard and considered.
By that, admittedly simplistic, measure both US and UK fail dismally.
The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake.
The state has long lost any credibility, and is not going to gain it back with more violence. It was state sanctioned murder that started the protests and exposed the systemic racism, people are wanting to see that the government is willing to listen and change. If the military go in fighting it could result in more uprising
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason
do you think thats what's happening? Do you think the strength of response to protests (not the riots, the protests) is justified? Is it "reasonable" in your opinion? Don't you think that the enormous overreaction and brutalising of peaceful black protestors by the police and government is indicative of the issue that they are protesting about? Have you seen the casual way in which white policemen are assaulting black protestors? Does that turn your stomach? Does it make you think that the protesters might actually have a point?
The US can definitely do more to reduce the number of deaths at the hands of police
hooray - we got there - THATS WHAT THE PROTEST IS ABOUT. The fact that, not only are they not doing anything, the perception within black communities is that it's getting worse. In fact (see above) the response to the protests tells most people that they are definitely worse.
Do you remember Colin Kaepernik's dignified protest against police brutality? Do you remember how that was received? Do you think anything changed as a result - or was it just treated with contempt?
Would you be happy to change places with a poor black man in America right now?
What point are you trying to make exactly?
That he wasn’t actually hit by a rubber bullet and is lying to get a bit of air time ?
And the other ones that were hit and aren’t lying?
The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake
Err....that’s why this whole thing started. People protest about the police being violent thugs, state reacts by being more thuggish and violent, people in turn become angrier and more violent. I don’t think there is much credibility left to lose. Talks and reform are what’s needed. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen due to Trump.