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Says something else about violence and antifa. Whilst the victim was no saint either, the perpetrator could have killed him, yet no one in the mob tried to stop him or apprehend him.
I feel that trying to imply something about the nature or character of Antifa groups from the fact they use Discord makes about as much sense as trying to imply something about their nature or character because they use phones, or the Internet.
Me too. Good job literally nobody has tried to. His point was that the Antifa diaspora coordinate via private Discord servers. I don't think that's a particularly new thing (barring the medium perhaps) nor does it put it at odds with them consisting of anarchic collectives. Also, some right wing groups do the same! Whodathunkit?
PewDiePie
Whilst I'm well aware of his output I think that's a stretch to put him as a figurehead of the Alt-Right.
Demonizing attitudes of the past. How pointless.
Can you look at the people who these statues are of as being partly responsible to bringing Britain to greatness during its years of empire.
So without them, or that attitude, the UK would not be the country it was or is today. And I would strongly disagree that the UK is racist,not the people nor the politics.
I would say there was a feudal attitude prevails, kind of we're all in it.
Interesting point you make, maybe the behaviour of antifa per country is a reflection of the different far-left wing groups it represents?
I guess at this point it really is, what degree of civil unrest do you agree with.
Antifa is a slogan, nothing more. Making it more than it is is just disingenuous pish. But crack on...
dyna-ti
Member
Demonizing attitudes of the past. How pointless.
Aye we should never learn from history. 😆
Aye we should never learn from history. 😆
If we have moved on from them and as a society admitted they are wrong, it does seem like a fruitless exercise.
I would argue that if a person was truly evil for their time, they would not have had statues. However I am probably wrong.
Someone pointed out as to why not have Hitler statues, well his actions were recognised as evil at the time, and rightly so.
I am very much 50:50 about this statues issue, however I cannot agree with a mob bringing it down.
baboonz
MemberI would argue that if a person was truly evil for their time, they would not have had statues. However I am probably wrong.
And naive.
I am very much 50:50 about this statues issue, however I cannot agree with a mob bringing it down.
Tbh, i'm not over connected to the statue issue. I think how much it has taken over this thread is a bit of a distraction from the point.
But needless to say I'm not fussed for them in the slightest. I have no connection to them or what they represent (which isn't history btw, they represent a glorification of history, they don't tell the truth nor the wider history of these isles. I think can think of plenty better to put in their place that will tell a better story..).
Can you look at the people who these statues are of as being partly responsible to bringing Britain to greatness during its years of empire.
Of course you can and that's what they are supposed to represent. What people are taking issue with is how they achieved this.
And I would strongly disagree that the UK is racist,not the people nor the politics.
As a presumably white person I'll take as much notice of that as your thoughts on Mongolian tapestry in the 4th century. I wouldn't say you are qualified to make that statement. But FWIW, the people and politics most assuredly are.
And I would strongly disagree that the UK is racist,not the people nor the politics.
Can you expand on this? Seems strange to me.
Archaeologists in Britain tend to have quite a rose tinted view of our ancient past. Probably because they are all hand wring liberals and can’t imagine that anybody might do anything nasty.
Lindow man, strangled, beaten, throat cut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindow_Man
Suspected massacre of women and children at Fin Cop: https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/news/massacre-at-fin-cop.htm
Ridgeway Hill Burial Pit, 54 Vikings messily executed by Saxons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridgeway_Hill_Viking_burial_pit
Hundreds of defleshed bodies at Ham Hill, some believed to be as the result of violence, rather than ritual: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/exclusive-slaughtered-bodies-stripped-of-their-flesh-a-gruesome-glimpse-of-iron-age-massacre-at-uk-s-8798680.html
etc, etc
Those hand-wringing liberal archaeologists, eh?
Aye we should never learn from history.
But we already have 😕
Are you suggesting we now remove all references to it, to that time. As in a century from now it will have past from memory, like it never happened at all.
O
Can you expand on this? Seems strange to me.
Well no not really. That appears down to the individual interpretation.
And I would strongly disagree that the UK is racist,not the people nor the politics.
Of course the UK is racist. I would be amazed if any country wasn't racist (i.e had a lot of racist people as residents)
If you don't believe the people are racist I will walk you around my neighbourhood and introduce you to a few of them
If you don't believe the politics is racist take a look at the shit the Home office has been up to over the last 10 years. Take a look at how Brexit was centred around immigration based on immigrants = bad people.
Changing the attitudes and behaviours of people is never going to happen though (these are not rational people) and a few protests and pulling down a statue are not going to do it if fact it will probably make them feel even more strongly...
Are you suggesting we now remove all references to it, to that time.
No one is, A statue isn't history, (especially one as whitewashed as Colston's was) we learn History from books, those books are still there, Colston hasn't been erased from history just because one statue has been removed.
Edit, I would even go as far as to say some of these statues are the opposite of history. Colston's (for example) was erected by Victorians in an attempt to cast him as an heroic benefactor, to erase all that inconvenient profiteering from Slavery...
If we have moved on from them and as a society admitted they are wrong, it does seem like a fruitless exercise.
I agree with that.
I would argue that if a person was truly evil for their time, they would not have had statues. However I am probably wrong.
I agree with that too.
Someone pointed out as to why not have Hitler statues, well his actions were recognised as evil at the time, and rightly so.
Yes, he is a recent evil. Imagine if he had won his statue would be everywhere.
I am very much 50:50 about this statues issue, however I cannot agree with a mob bringing it down.
Nope. I don't agree to bring down those statues at all. Even Genghis Khan the ruler of my ancestors ...
Are you suggesting we now remove all references to it, to that time.
Take the statues down, put them in museums with detailed contextual displays telling the whole story, including why they've been removed from their original public display, not just a plaque.
The toppling of Edward Colton has placed him more firmly in the history books than leaving him there would have done. This is what makes a nonsense of those suggesting that removing statues is removing them from history.
Can you expand on this? Seems strange to me.
Well no not really. That appears down to the individual interpretation.
I see, so all the times people come up against racism its open to interpretation, and it might not be racist.... Not a terribly convincing point of view, makes you seem like a racism denier, what should we call these people?
The toppling of Edward Colton has placed him more firmly in the history books than leaving him there would have done. This is what makes a nonsense of those suggesting that removing statues is removing them from history.
Nope. It is the way the statue was removed. I disagree with that action.
On another point, the way they went about it was a bit like "Cultural Revolution" with the rise of Chairman Mao ... well he got sucked in further and further when things got out of hand.
The common thread between all the statues under scrutiny is their connection to either slavery or brutal colonial ouppression.
B**locks to your Stonehenge and Attila the Hun piffle.
The fact that these persons did so much to shape the way Britain developed only serves to emphasise the connection between the society we live in, how it was made and What underpins it.
dyna-ti
Member
Aye we should never learn from history.But we already have 😕
Are you suggesting we now remove all references to it, to that time. As in a century from now it will have past from memory, like it never happened at all.
Statues have nothing to do with the preservation of history. Books are infinitely better. Documentaries are good too. Grandiose statues, are well....a bit shit at story telling.
Statues are not guardians of history.
I would be amazed if any country wasn’t racist
Possibly confusing nationalism here possibly 🙂 😕
The common thread between all the statues under scrutiny is their connection to either slavery or brutal colonial ouppression.
How about Rome in Italy?
Statues have nothing to do with the preservation of history.
Are you referring to all statues in the world?
On another point, the way they went about it was a bit like “Cultural Revolution” with the rise of Chairman Mao
Are you serious (rhetorical) It's literally the opposite of what the CPC did. A giant monolithic state totally erasing the cultural references of the past...vs locals removing one egregious statue.
Are you referring to all statues in the world?
Newsflash, Statues are not History. They may be "from the past" that still doesn't make them History. History's the study of what people did, Statues come under Sculpture... possibly architecture (at a push)
Are you serious (rhetorical) It’s literally the opposite of what the CPC did. A giant monolithic state totallyerasing the cultural references of the past…vs a local group removing one egregious statue.
As I said previously my grand uncle was a cultural revolutionist and they would destroy all "idols" regardless. It all started with a few but then as the group pressure got stronger and more of the young ones got suck into the ideology and there is no stopping. Even the leader Chairman Mao got suck in and was unable to stop them. Now I am just trying to see which politicians got suck in.
Newsflash, Statues are not History. They may be “from the past” that still doesn’t make them History. History’s the study of what people did, Statues come under Sculpture… possibly architecture (at a push)
Is the statue of the Buddha a sculpture? Jesus Christ a sculpture?
Newsflash, Statues are not History.
Beginning to wonder if this is ever going to get through to some people. 😀
This whole statue thing seems to be an unintended consequence. This thread (and much of the media) is now debating statues rather than debating issues of race and how they can be fixed. I suppose it is much easier to talk shit about statues...
Beginning to wonder if this is ever going to get through to some people.
Oh yeah, they get it, it upsets their view of the world, but they totally get it.
This whole statue thing seems to be an unintended consequence. This thread (and much of the media) is now debating statues rather than debating issues of race and how they can be fixed. I suppose it is much easier to talk shit about statues…
Yes, unintended but when situation got out of hands that is what happens.
It looks like it is spreading ... BBC news - Gone with the Wind
The common thread between all the statues under scrutiny is their connection to either slavery or brutal colonial suppression predicated specifically on racist ideas that were birthed in the Enlightenment in order to justify slavery and make a bogus scientific claim for white supremacy.
There.... Fixed it for myself.
The Industrial Revolution shaped the modern world in which we live. The Industrial Revolution began not it Telford, It began with the Trans Atlantic slave trade.
This thread (and much of the media) is now debating statues rather than debating issues of race and how they can be fixed
I agree and disagree. Yes we're talking about statues, but we're talking about what they represent, and if that gets people talking about the past and slavery, it's all to the good. You can still (I think) debate racism through the medium of statues.
I think facing up to our colonial legacy is absolutely part of dealing with racism in the UK
Glorifying what at best was a mixed bag of achievements & at worst genocide is shameful
That appears down to the individual interpretation.
Yes, usually the person on the recieving end. Glad we cleared that up. Now, as a (again presumably) white person in a majority white society can you see how that may colour your views on this matter?
Says something else about violence and antifa.
https://twitter.com/FuriosaLives/status/1269375444010381314?s=20
I'd have to disagree with those saying the statues issue has become a distraction from the original topic. By sticking 'on topic there was always a danger that this would be a 'look what's happening over there' thread.
The symbolism of the events in Bristol are immense and bought the issue of Britain's culturally ingrained racism to the fore in an instant. The speed thing is important, a debate that had smouldered for 40 years was resolved in 40 minutes.
Some have sought to compare the events in Bristol to the Chinese Cultural Revolution. It reminded me more of an episode of the Simpsons and I think the protesters themselves were conscious of the pantomime nature of their actions. I saw more joy than hatred.
I provided an article from a liberal magazine to illustrate my point. You provide a gotcha Twitter. What’s next an episode of Trevor Noah?
a liberal magazine
Liberal by the standards of the US isn't necessarily liberal by anyone else's standards. These things should never be viewed in isolation.
And I don't think Dazh took anything away from your point, it's exactly the contradictory narrative that is being played right now.
It’s pretty disappointing to see how recent events are now starting to detract from the very important focus on ending racism and inequality of opportunity.
It seems to me that a lot of the narrative in the UK is now coming from the same left wing activists / anti capitalists who have been pushing class war and seeking to stifle debate on a number of fronts - with the constant threat of public “shaming” for anyone that challenges them.
Many of the protesters don’t really seem to know why they are there and of those that do, their position seems conflicted by their own bias.
This video has been doing the rounds in oz - not sure if there’s anything similar for the U.K. but illustrates some of the inconsistencies.
My own view on Colston is that the statue should have been removed years ago.
Not sure if any videos like that are doing the rounds in the UK. But then unlike Nadine Doris I don't have Jada Frantzen in my facebook group.
Saw what seemed to me to be a dozen EDL types defending the war memorial in St Peters Square, Manchester this afternoon.
Not sure if they were defending it from Antifa or pigeons. Didn't see any Antifa about but to be fair, they did seem to be keeping away the pigeons.
Last I heard, Antifa had had a large donation from Soros and had invested in building a secure communications app from the ground up. So, they were probably a hit busy today.
Justine Damond - After the initial aquital, the officer was charged with 2nd degree murder.
I don't know the American numbers but only one man in the UK "made legal history as the first person to win a case against the police for a racist attack – but guess what? I am still the only one 28 years later. Nothing of course happened to the officers." Aamer Anwar. He is the lawyer for Sheku Bayoh's family, there's a documentary on BBC 1(Scotland) tonight at 10.45
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18501332.aamer-anwar/
Justine Damond – After the initial aquital, the officer was charged with 2nd degree murder.
Jesus, 12 years for making a mistake.
Aren't there temperament tests for Policemen to make sure they don't get so spooked that they shoot people? I'm a bit jumpy so most likely I'd have done the same as him: Dark alley; possibility of an ambush; someone approaches the car but I wouldn't expect to pass the tests to get into an armed police force.
According to wiki Third degree murder is "without intent to cause the death of any person".
Tragic for everyone involved:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond