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I'm at a loss as to why anyone here would think "pikey" is acceptable language.
I always thought gypsy was a bit off as well, but it seems to be used widely now?.
As per my post above, the Council here in Norfolk has made a number of permanent sites for them, they don't pay any rent for them, they have proper toilets and showers etc, but they have still wrecked the place anyway, then complain it's not fit for purpose.
When they stole a few £1000 of red diesel from father in laws quarry, they didn't have to then slash the lines so that the diesel soaked into the surrounding ground causing an environmental issue too.
My cousin in Essex has had 2 caravans stolen blatantly from his drive, reversed up in broad daylight for the first one, second one had wheel clamps on and they still stole it. Police did nothing at all.
But i do acknowledge there is a difference between the older Romany travelling community and the "crime wave in Transits"
tjagain - Member
Jakster - hear that wooshing noise? Thats the point flying over your head.
Hear that? "....."
That's the sound of one hand clapping, sarcastically.
Just because I disagree with you, TJ, doesn't mean I'm wrong (or indeed that you are right). It's a nuanced series of issues, but to lay all of the problems as being the fault of "society" is cultural relativism at its absolute worst.
The polarisation and demonisation of travellers has been building up over many decades
Often as a direct result of their behaviour.
As for buying plots of land - they have tried that and what happens is they get tonnes of legal hasle and refused planning permission / change of use.
Ah, it's the system, man...
Actually, I know of sites bought and owned by traveller families which managed to get planning permission without "tonnes of legal hasle [sic]". Didn't stop the occupants burning each other's caravans down in a feud, mind..
Of course, it's a bit different if you buy an agricultural field, then park a load of caravans on it without obtaining the necessary permissions. That must be the fault of society for having those darn rules again...
but to lay all of the problems as being the fault of "society" is cultural relativism at its absolute worst.
correct. which is why I didn't do it. NO pejorative terms, no blame laid by me either way just a simple explanation of how alienation occurs and what the consequences are but your prejudices don't allow you to see that
tjagain - Member
just a simple explanation of how alienation occurs and what the consequences are but your prejudices don't allow you to see that
Hmm, if you say so. But it's plain that your "simple explanation" cannot be divorced from the historical and social/sociological context in which the issues relating to itinerant travellers have arisen.
they were excluded from society
No legal places to camp - then camp illegally and when you are not wanted why take care of your campsite?
further rejection from society
they are demonised and ostracised
reviled outcasts
Seems pretty emotive language to me suggesting "they" are the victims here.
Of course, my "prejudices" don't allow me to see that. Silly me. 🙄
The polarisation and demonisation of travellers has been building up over many decadesOften as a direct result of their behaviour.
+1 Much of this is their own doing - respect is a two way street.
But i do acknowledge there is a difference between the older Romany travelling community and the "crime wave in Transits"
That perception is fairly specific to Western Europe. In Central/Eastern Europe you'll find that local perceptions of Roma gypsies is considerably worse than just criminals in Transits. I've never seen a group so feared and openly despised like that before. And it's self-perpetuating; they're so hated that the places they live become ghettoised, the deprivation and isolation leads to crime and other social issues, and everyone reasserts their opinion that these people are just not fit for civilised life. Respectable people that would never say stuff like this about (for instance) black people - even though racism is notably more prevalent in some of these parts - will come out with some pretty outrageous stuff about the Roma. A friend of mine was even hesitant about visiting Turkey because 'they all look like Gypsies'...
Also, just to reiterate the point about how most of us probably know or have met travellers without knowing it. A friend of mine grew up in a traveller family and you would never know; she doesn't shout about it because she doesn't want the grief. There are people like that everywhere but because you can't outwardly tell their background, they don't do much to tip the balance of public opinion back.
Hmm, if you say so. But it's plain that your "simple explanation" cannot be divorced from the historical and social/sociological context in which the issues relating to itinerant travellers have arisen.
~correct - and as I tried to explain its a two way process. alienate a group they feel no need to live within the rules leading to further alienation and living further outside the rules and norms..
Its a well known and well understood cultural phenomenon.
respect is a two way street.
correct - thats the point I was making
Also, just to reiterate the point about how most of us probably know or have met travellers without knowing it. A friend of mine grew up in a traveller family and you would never know; she doesn't shout about it because she doesn't want the grief. There are people like that everywhere but because you can't outwardly tell their background, they don't do much to tip the balance of public opinion back.
Many Travellers don't openly identify as Travellers, because they're afraid of the attitudes being openly displayed on this thread.
Sounds a bit like we're going round in circles now.
Hope that was illuminating for SaxonRider, anyway... 😛
<edit>
miketually - Member
Many Travellers don't openly identify as Travellers, because they're afraid of the attitudes being openly displayed on this thread.
I think there is a distinction to be drawn between ethnic Roma, who have suffered the same sort of prejudice over the centuries as the Jewish people, and so-called "modern" travellers of Irish extraction. The things doris5000 mentions are often directed at the Roma; the matters complained of on this thread (anti-social behaviour etc) are usually directed at the other group.
Have had dealings with travellers in professional situation, hard work but after a lot of face to face communication got a problem sorted out.
Have seen first hand the chaos they can inflict when just pitching up. The mess they left behind was unreal.
All people shouldn't be tarred with the same brush but they really don't help themselves 90% of the time.
BTW - I completely agree that the behaviour of some / many of them is ruddy awful in many ways. What I was trying to do is allow some understanding of how we got to this position from a very different relationship 100+ years ago.
Respectable people that would never say stuff like this about (for instance) black people - even though racism is notably more prevalent in some of these parts - will come out with some pretty outrageous stuff about the Roma.
For me i have respect for anyone's traditions or backgrounds, my comments would be the same if they had a Home Counties accent and arrived in a Range Rovers, my local council here has bent over backwards to try to address their concerns and to give them 8 permanent sites to call their own. But in return they have stolen numerous tractors and other farm machinery from local farms, stolen heating fuel and red diesel from houses and farms (my own heating oil has been stolen twice), they have stolen numerous expensive items from RAF Mildenhall and Lakenheath and then try to sell them to locals openly down the pub. They have made 2 of the 4 pubs in my local town of Swaffham no go areas. Imagine finding your £85000.00 tractor stolen from your farm, then having to drive past it right outside their site burnt out on your way into town only for the Police to say there is little they can do?
If you read my comments on any of the political/ terrorist act threads my comments are nearly always moderate mainly because i will give any person, from any background the time of day and with an open mind. But what has happened locally to me is just criminal act after criminal act and with little come back as people (and the police) are intimidated.
Mixed but mostly negative experiences here too.
There's quite a few in the local area that have houses, and their extended families living in static caravans in the drive / garden. They don't seem to cause any trouble though.
The one I encountered recently when I found his dog running loose in the road, although not rude or threatening, told me a complete pack of lies and seemed genuinely scared when I asked for his mobile number.
Generally there's only any noticeable crime when the circus is in town. Stuff taken from garages.
A long time ago, in a different area, I worked with the council and heard various tales, e.g. a surveyor getting his car tyres slashed when visiting a council-run site to plan an improved water supply for them 🙄
Last house I worked in with recently settled travellers they asked if they could have my tools and I could just tell my boss I'd lost them and get new ones. Lots of run ins with them when living west coast of Scotland non of them good. Always put our boat on a mooring when they were about as lots of interest in our generators/compresses etc.
'Normal' people tend to dislike those who live by their own rules and vice versa. I wouldn't lend them a tenner and wouldn't be happy if they set up house behind me.
my comments are nearly always moderate mainly because i will give any person, from any background the time of day and with an open mind
But then you have already said this:
my local council here has bent over backwards to try to address their concerns and to give them 8 permanent sites to call their own. But in return they have stolen numerous tractors and other farm machinery from local farms
You are breaking your own rule. You are using the word 'they' to refer to all travellers. The ones who stole the tractors may not be the same ones who are raising concerns to the authorities. You are lumping all travellers together, and this is prejudice.
I've been burgled a couple of times, most likely by people who live in houses. And now my own house is surrounded by houses. Am I shitting myself? No, because I know that whilst some people who live in houses are burglares, many are not.
Point is that there may well be many bad travellers, but they aren't all bad. You need to remember this.
Maybe the nice ones could wear white hats so we can recognise them?
What's that meant to mean?
I find it intriguing that the Gypsy council (and various other bodies who represent them) harp on about 'preserving Gypsy culture' at every opportunity, yet from what I can see anything 'cultural' disappeared decades ago.
Part of the problem is the country has changed - pre-war their was a real need for a seasonal travelling workforce who did agricultural/land work and other helpful stuff (tinkering pots/pans, sharpening edge tools)
However, that need is all but gone now, and the Eastern Europeans seem to have what is left pretty well covered.
I guess this leaves the Gypsies clinging to a 'heritage' and 'culture' which doesn't fit very well in modern society.
yet from what I can see anything 'cultural' disappeared decades ago.
How much do you know about Roma culture?
You're aware that the archetypal 'traveller' being talked about here is not Roma, right?
I wonder how many people would make the same statements they've made here, but with 'blacks' or 'gays' or 'Muslims' in place of 'gypsy'?
I wonder how many people would make the same statements they've made here, but with 'blacks' or 'gays' or 'Muslims' in place of 'gypsy'?
Why would they? have you ever seen any of those groups displaying those types of behaviours?
You are breaking your own rule. You are using the word 'they' to refer to all travellers. The ones who stole the tractors may not be the same ones who are raising concerns to the authorities. You are lumping all travellers together, and this is prejudice.
I am not lumping all travellers together at all, i went to school with a lad Asa from the community and boxed for years with some guys in East London that came from a genuine travelling community.
My issue if you read back through my comments on the thread is not against "them" it is against any person who persistently breaks the law, then uses intimidation. Unfortunately when it comes to the groups local to me they seem to be a law into themselves. So i am discriminatory in saying that people that can be proven to have time and time again stolen from me, my family and locals to me must not be deemed to be a menace?
If you wanted to be respected, then live by the laws of the land whatever your background, it need not infringe upon your identity. Should we have higher speed limits for those with hot-hatches as that is their "group", should we scrap drink-drive laws for those where the pub is more than a walk away as i am discriminating against that prefer lager over coke, no because the example is silly.
I work in tracing insurance fraud, an area that has to be very sensitive to not discriminating about certain "groups" despite the statistics, in the meantime, we get moaned at when premiums go up.
Unfortunately when it comes to the groups local to me they seem to be a law into themselves. So i am discriminatory in saying that people that can be proven to have time and time again stolen from me, my family and locals to me must not be deemed to be a menace?
It's not clear whether or not 'people' in your post refers to the group or to multiple individuals, but you're being discriminatory [b]if[/b] you refer to the whole community, rather than individuals, yes.
I'm all for following laws. You don't have to hammer that point home.
I work in tracing insurance fraud, an area that has to be very sensitive to not discriminating about certain "groups" despite the statistics
Of course. Imagine you were born into a traveller family, but wanted to live your life as squeaky clean as possible. But yet your insurance was still sky high because your address was a traveller site.
It's not clear whether or not 'people' in your post refers to the group or to multiple individuals, but you're being discriminatory if you refer to the whole community, rather than individuals, yes.
I do not mean the "whole" community, i mean those elements that persistently feel that crime is a way of life. I am not discriminating against anyone who has never committed crime, there some girls from our local camp called "The Splashes" that attend my daughters school, i've been nothing but civil despite the fact that it was the father of one of them that emptied the red diesel tank at my father in laws quarry, he's there clear as day on CCTV, he and others were there just the week before that trying to sell a gen-set with USAF written down the side. Do i feel they should be punished under the terms of the law, then yes i do. Do i feel the little girls/ his daughter, should be "discriminated" against, then no i do not, i'd like to her get a good education and grow up to be whatever she wants to be as she should be allowed.
The issue near to me, is that those that are committing these crimes are just so blatant, they are rubbing peoples noses in it.
But they do not commit all the crime and my issue with those do commit the crime, would be the same whatever their colour, creed, sexuality.
Of course. Imagine you were born into a traveller family, but wanted to live your life as squeaky clean as possible. But yet your insurance was still sky high because your address was a traveller site.
As stated the Council here have provided 8 sites with toilets, showers and clean water, is that not better than constantly being kicked on from temporary site to another site all the time. They have addressed to address this for them, an example from the first post was of a good friend i cycle with, he works for Autoglass. He has been twice called to go to the camp to replace windscreens, both times he has not been paid, there was no insurance in place and both times has escorted off the site, he did nothing but his job.
I'm at a loss as to why anyone here would think "pikey" is acceptable language.
Aye, it's one we've debated here a time or two. Usually comparing to the acceptability of a similar sounding term used to signify people of ****stani heritage. It's one thing that I think the powers that be are dead wrong with their ruling on, but it's their website, so they make the rules.
There does seem to be a lot of generalisation and prejudice - when it comes down to it a lot of people don't seem to understand the logic fail of moving from "all the thieves are gypsies" and (leaving that one to stand for the purpose of this point) to the conclusion that "all the gypsies are thieves"
And yes, it is damn similar to "all cyclists run red lights / ride on the pavement" based on "I saw some cyclists do that" in principle.
Just realised that i might as well give up on STW forum, i'm clearly not very good at explaining myself between different threads i've been accused of being a war-mongerng baby killer, discriminatory against a minority group and a liberal lefty somehow....
And yes, it is damn similar to "all cyclists run red lights / ride on the pavement" based on "I saw some cyclists do that" in principle.
This is actually what i was (badly) trying to explain, i don't hate all cyclists, i just really don't like those that blatantly go through red lights, but then don't like it when i point out they are a "red light jumper"
Aye, it's one we've debated here a time or two. Usually comparing to the acceptability of a similar sounding term used to signify people of ****stani heritage. It's one thing that I think the powers that be are dead wrong with their ruling on, but it's their website, so they make the rules
we've lost the right to use both of those terms as a society because they've long been a tool to beat a minority with. An Aussie friend will refer to ****s when talking about cricket which, although it grates, hasn't had that history of being used perjoratively in Australia.
Scud - thats why I used the comparison with "lycra louts"
forgive the generalisations
A group easily seen as different. Obeying the rules of the road does not stop close passes and car drivers endangering them so given no benefit to them in obeying the rules why bother? That then gives rise to the "all cyclists jump red lights and ride on the pavement" hardening and entrenching the views of the car driver and leading to " they don't obey the rules of the road so they deserve no respect" and car drivers treating all cyclists as rule breakers thus perpetuating and exacerbating the conflict
I agree with you TJ, and have actively not used the term "pikeys" gypsies or as they are known here in Norfolk "didicoys". I don't want to seperate them as a group. I want those elements within that group to be recognised simply as criminals, I don't want them on a pedestal, the only thing I want to brand those who have committed crime with as a title is the "Defendant" or "the accused" but treated no differently to anyone else that commits crime
I know two lot's of travellers, one from the North East of Scotland and one from North East of England. Both come from traditional travelling families going back many generations, keep themselves to themselves and are totally different groups from the Gypsy and Irish traveller groups whom they don't associate with.
The ones from the North East of England run a sucessful groundworks company and work all over the UK bringing their caravans and families with them when they are on a big site. The two owners are self made millionaires and the hardest most honest grafters I've ever had on a site. Clean, tidy and take great pride in themselves and their surroundings. They have their own land and a house where they can base themselves from when not working or on the road.
The ones from Scotland are a smaller outfit and more traditional in terms of how they live (live off the land type) and make what little money they need mainly through seasonal work and some selling of crafts. They are some of the nicest and warmest people you could ever meet but they are struggling more and more to keep going. They face all sorts of abuse from the public and have lost most of their traditional sites from landowners changing hands and the new owners not wanting them near them. Last I had heard from them one of the family units had given up and got a council house.
If I had any land, I wouldn't hesitate to let either lot onto it as I know both would leave it in at least as good condition as they found it.
If they've 'gone to brick' to use their expression then you can hardly call them travellers, but they're actions can still be a bit anti-social
Full on Travellers in these parts we get an early warning system and owners of local warehouses and car parks as I once was have to let each other know if they are about, if you don't then let me tell you what happens from personal experience.
They move onto your car park and set up camp, things immediately start going missing anything of scrap value, feral kids turn up inside your warehouse grabbing anything that's not screwed down, eventually there's a foul smell from the drains round the back which have been used as latrines, all full, the police are frightened and will not deal with them, the council are slow, they know how long it takes to get an eviction notice served and actioned and warned us if we give them any trouble they'd 'torch the place'. At the time we didn't actually own the Industrial unit and the landlord came round and was very helpful but couldn't do much being an old guy and at one point I was worried for him when he confronted them so a few of us lined up behind him with big sticks and heavy spanners and bolt croppers and we pointed out they might think about torching us but we could also act the same way by flooding the car park with fuel and setting light to it, it became very ugly for a while. They eventually backed down there not being quite as many of them as my staff and the staff from other warehouses who also joined the altercation. Still no police. Eventually we were lucky enough to get the army to help and the sight of a few Gurkas with big tow trucks and a tank carrier encouraged them to move on, this after about three weeks of an absolute nightmare.
Most of the locals run a tobacco smuggling ring given were' near the channel ports, and vans, trailors and the like often go missing to be reported up country used to ship large quantities of tobacco up North, we've had two vans and a trailor stolen. They turn up with a low loader winch it on and bugger off with it, it's all on CCTV which we installed whilst they were there the first time, we only recovered one van and it was trashed, a write off.
So if you ask me my opinion you can imagine my quote from Snatch.
Funny enough, [url= http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/man-spotted-riding-horse-through-13218812 ]this[/url] just showed up in the news. By coincidence, the guy on the horse is one of the group that I had to walk through in Pontcanna Fields.