MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Look at this 19 year old:
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Doesn't she know she should be standing on street corners, drinking tonic wine, doing soft drugs, vandalising things and intimidating old people?
Not swanning about [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27299581 ]inventing a new super-capacitor[/url] that could revolutionise mobile devices and electric cars.
Kids eh?
Yes, but if only these smart arsed teens could channel their genius into [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn ]misguided shits and giggles[/url] jn the shed instead of squandering it on the betterment of mankind
It's almost as if this generation are exactly like every generation that preceded them.
Brilliant Kids are Brilliant Kids no matter what background they come from or how they look.
😉
Not swanning about inventing a new super-capacitor that could revolutionise mobile devices and electric cars.
Calm down at the back.
Doing science, to be encouraged.
Larging it up and overclaiming results, not to be encouraged.
Existing lithium batteries have an energy density an order of magnitude higher (so this won't do anything useful for mobiles), and also that there exist commercial supercaps of comparable energy density.
The media loves a kid genius story...
Larging it up and overclaiming results, not to be encouraged.
She was awarded the $50,0000 Intel Young Scientist Award after beating 1600 other finalists from 70+ countries.
I think it has already been "larged up" 🙂
Existing lithium batteries have an energy density an order of magnitude higher (so this won't do anything useful for mobiles)
It charges in 20 to 30 seconds*. That sounds pretty damn handy for mobiles (and electric cars) to me!
* (according to news outlets, I haven't found the actual science)
Corrrr! She's well fit innit 😉
Did someone say she invented something?
My daughter is convinced she's going to get a nobel prize, i've told her she's got more chance of winning Xfactor.
I'm putting a fiver on the Nobel though just in case.
It charges in 20 to 30 seconds*. That sounds pretty damn handy for mobiles
Not when it discharges in 2 hours...
I'm only going from the press reports (which are not exactly great on reporting science) but the BBC described it as [i]"a super-capacitor that charges more quickly and stores more energy than a conventional battery"[/i]
She was awarded the $50,0000 Intel Young Scientist Award after beating 1600 other finalists from 70+ countries.
Putting my follow-the-money hat on...
New supercapacitor chemistries (technology in general, TBH) are generally quite expensive to research, so maybe for $50,000 Intel got a bargain. You know, if they were to then go into some kind of production with the aim of selling them.
It charges in 20 to 30 seconds*.
Yes, I can see you've read the related science extensively.
Maths cribbed from some other internet web page:
Because of inefficiencies it takes approx 5V*2A*60min*60sec = 36000 joules to fully charge a typical 4.2V/2000mAH battery.36000 Joules = 1/2 x C x V**2
Assume 3V ultra-cap (ignore DC-DC conversion to cell voltage)
We need a 8000F cap charged at 200A for 30 seconds to get the required joules
Like to take a guess on how feasible it is to stuff 200A into a mobile phone sized battery (sorry, supercapacitor)?
molgrips has already pointed out the self-discharge problem, too.
These things are basically beyond awesome at doing stuff like the F1 engine 'surplus turbo energy and braking energy storage' gizmos. Applications where you get massive charge currents, short periods of time, with equally massive discharges soon after.
Incidentally, I'm not trying to downplay the achievement of developing a new (and apparently workable and useful) anode chemistry.
maybe for $50,000 Intel got a bargain
It's a science award - I don't [i]think[/i] it automatically grants Intel the patent rights.
Yes, I can see you've read the related science extensively.
I said as much.
I'm not familiar enough with electrickery science to know if this is as amazeballs as the news media portrays - I was more impressed that someone so young could be usefully involved in such a field.
(ditto for that Jack Andraka guy!)
Like to take a guess on how feasible it is to stuff 200A into a mobile phone sized battery (sorry, supercapacitor)?
Yep the current option does look a little bulky:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26963255
as amazeballs as the news media portrays
mainstream news media has not done any homework, instead choosing to publish story of really fantastic impressive sciency sounding stuff happening to surprisngly photogenic girl (unlike all the other geeks who invent stuff, whose stories dont get published).
Yep the current option does look a little bulky
what current option?
that's also a supercapacitor, like other supercaps, theirs is (a) a fraction of the normal batteries electrical storage and (b) much larger than the normal battery
oh, and you do know that the cap itself was not in that photo?
A modified Galaxy S4 can charge in just 30 seconds, but the battery is the size of a laptop power adapter
mrmonkfinger: quick question, since you seem to understand the physics, if the issue is that this thing self-discharges then couldn't they easily do a hybrid design?
e.g. you plug your phone in for 30 seconds and that fast charges the super-cap.
Then over the next two hours or so that super-cap charges the normal LiPo battery (sort of like those external battery packs work)?
Obviously bulk is still an issue though. As is safety.
what current option?
The prototype StoreDot one in [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26963255 ]the link I just posted[/url] (in which the BBC guy repeats your 200amp point)
oh, and you do know that the cap itself was not in that photo?
Oh 🙁 What is it that she is displaying in the petri-dish-like thing then? Is that just some small part of it?
They said it was small and could be used in flexible folding electronics.
^ you've pretty much nailed what storedot have done already
the charge time for the cap isn't a problem (if its an external 'thing', you can design nice big connectors to handle big currents)
for them, as you say, bulk is the issue - as you're faced with the choice of
1) stick it in the wall for an hour
or
2) carry the large extra 'thing' around for an hour
Lots of people are working very very hard on supercapacitors, to get the physical bulk reduced, so I would expect to see this kind of tech move on fairly quickly over the next few years, although how far it can be taken remains to be seen.
Is that just some small part of it?
I can't see the vid from here, so I guess it must be.
for them, as you say, bulk is the issue - as you're faced with the choice of1) stick it in the wall for an hour
or
2) carry the large extra 'thing' around for an hour
I could see option 2 still being a viable product.
If I'm about to leave the house and I discover my phone isn't charged then the ability to charge up a large but easily carryable external battery pack in 30 seconds and then hook it to my phone would definitely be better than either leaving the phone behind, waiting in for it to charge normally, or taking charger with me and hoping I get a chance to charge it up somewhere.
Interesting tech though. Really hope they crack it as battery technology seems to be the main thing holding back mobile tech and electric cars at the moment.
Lots of great teenagers about although this one does seem particularly amazing
A quick google shows that the media have jumped the gun a bit
How do we know what the self discharge rate is? I can't see that listed any where
Because of inefficiencies it takes approx 5V*2A*60min*60sec = 36000 joules to fully charge a typical 4.2V/2000mAH battery.
36000 Joules = 1/2 x C x V**2Assume 3V ultra-cap (ignore DC-DC conversion to cell voltage)
We need a 8000F cap charged at 200A for 30 seconds to get the required joules
The maths in this looks well dodgy
firstly why do we assume that charging a capacitor is as inefficient as charging a battery. I thought when you charged a capacitor you waste half your energy but that energy is wasted in the charging circuit not the capacitor. But crucially all the energy transferred into the capacitor is stored, its not converted into heat
Secondly if you store 6000C (200A*30s) in a 8000F capacitor then the voltage is only 0.75V (Q=CV). Not the 3V they assume
Which only gives an energy store of 2250J not the 36000J you need (E=0.5*Q*V)
Apparently the capacitor voltage is 1.1 V but presumably you'd bung loads in series to get any handy voltage you want (or any current you want). I think the problem will be heat dumped into the charger. Which would be 36,000J in 30 seconds that's 1200W. Maybe if it made you a cup of tea at the same time. Or can you make a clever charger where the output voltage climbs at the correct rate avoiding the need to dump energy...
...swanning about inventing a new super-capacitor
Someone needs to invent a flux-capacitor so I'll finally have the last part I need for my time-travelling car.
Secondly if you store 6000C (200A*30s) in a 8000F capacitor then the voltage is only 0.75V (Q=CV). Not the 3V they assume
A mobile battery (3.7V @ 1400maH - in my HTC) has about 18000J of useful energy.
Using W = 1/2 C V V, a 4000F cap charged at 3V stores 18000J.
Using Q = C V, 12000C is needed to get a 4000F cap up to 3V.
12000C = 400A for 30s. Or 200A for 60s. Assuming a perfectly efficient charge circuit.
It's a bit rough and ready but not unrealistic numbers...
^^ all good Math, however you are making assumptions based on your own methodology and that of others in your peer group..
She's unthinking your thinking and rethinking the unthinkable 😀 😉
She's unthinking your thinking and rethinking the unthinkable
head explodes!
Someone needs to invent a flux-capacitor so I'll finally have the last part I need for my time-travelling car.
funny someone mentioned that...
there was a DeLorean parked inthe work carpark this morning
The media loves a kid genius story...
Particularly if it's a pretty female. See Telegraph front pages [i]passim[/i] on A-level results day.
there was a DeLorean parked inthe work carpark this morning
Yeah, it was there next week too.
Ah... that's why there's the Lightning connector. It's the only way you can get the one point twentyone jiggerwatts in.
These things are basically beyond awesome at doing stuff like the F1 engine 'surplus turbo energy and braking energy storage' gizmos. Applications where you get massive charge currents, short periods of time, with equally massive discharges soon after.
ISTR BMW made a car with supercaps in it for performance only reasons. Dumped a modest amount of charge into an electric motor in a very short space of time for stupid 0-60 times.
couldn't they easily do a hybrid design?
Radio 4 science programme (forgot the name) on Thursday afternoon had a piece on this. A team at Tel Aviv uni had done that exact thing. Cap on one side, Li-po battery on the other. They had a battery that you could put into a phone, but it only lasted an hour or something. A device with enough charge to power a phone all day was the size of a book or something but they 'expected the size to come down'.
Lolz yeah right, okay...
there was a DeLorean parked inthe work carpark this morning
Yeah, it was there next week too.
Doffs cap. Made me laff!
Yeah, it was there next week too.
post of the thread!
BMW made a car with supercaps in it for performance only reasons.
on the car front, supercaps are making their way onto production cars as of now, doing just the kind of hybrid things graham mentioned (massive cap to capture the energy, then dribble that into the regular battery). use the supercap to drop the loads on the normal alternator during stop/start round town type driving, plus it (maybe indirectly) can provide juice to run the starter motor if the engine is one that always stops at traffic lights
http://articles.sae.org/11845/