Ernie. There is no struggle between wings of the party. This is all about the pursuit of power and saying whatever they need to say to get that power
The hard right won a long time ago. The folk with the actual power are behind the scenes and are the same whoever us the puppet
This is just a part of the slow motion coup.
Liz’s fantasy tax cuts.
Let us not forget that this lady suggested that we can export 'Yorkshire tea', to China.
This is the level of intellect we are dealing with here. 😀
Ernie. There is no struggle between wings of the party.
You have the most simplistic view of the Tories of anyone I know.
The idea that the Tory Party is an idealogical united party is absurd.
Brexit if nothing else should have proved that to you - most Tory MPs actually voted remain.
And there is a constant battle going on within the Tory Party concerning how to deal with the next inevitable crises.
I know people are in denial but the current leadership struggle within the Tory Party is between left and right.
Are you sure you're not talking about the Labour party here? PMSL! 😉
I am talking about most political parties.
When it comes to internal struggles.
Sadistic? Evil? What other adjective suits
Their education etc is no excuse. They know they deliberatly inflict harm.
The issue is that they are morally in a different place to us. It's a function of their education/upbringing/culture that they most likely don't see what they're doing as wrong. It's sort of the flip side to the 'council estate' yobbos who see nothing wrong with riding around on illegal motorbikes or trashing the local park. Their points of reference are completely different to ours so what we see them as doesn't necessarily correlate with how we see them.
That's sort of more worrying than if they were just evil!
Brexit if nothing else should have proved that to you – most Tory MPs actually voted remain.
@ernielynch - that’s simply not true. Just shy of 50% (46 iirc) voted to leave in the referendum and it was closer to 70% that voted for May’s deal and closer to 80% that voted for Johnson’s deal.
The issue is that they are morally in a different place to us. It’s a function of their education/upbringing/culture that they most likely don’t see what they’re doing as wrong.
That excuses why the Tory MPs are such ****ers. What excuses do you have for the people (the majority of people in current voting system) that vote for them. Many of those people do not have the 'tory' upbringing.
My mum and dad were very working class but always voted tory. My dad loved Thatcher, my mum was indifferent to her but still voted Tory and still does now. She is not a tory at all in her values, approach to life etc,. and anything she says (from reading it) is quickly debased in 1 minute and she quickly gets it but she still votes tory because?
My dad was the nicest man I have ever known, really part of the community, would help anyone, always checking everyone was okay, hard working and had not a single tory bone in his body when talking to him but still voted tory because?
Ah well from the fantasy world of the Tory membership straight into the real world cost of living crisis , what is it another predicted energy rise of 65%.
Should be an interesting initiation for Liz.
Still in case of emergency grab the nearest war with both hands.
I think your going to see how well she does very quickly.
For me it's simple on an economic footing.
The Tories loath the state but they actually need it to take the pain away the minute their beloved free-enterprise cocks up.
Which is all too often.
We've seen it time and time again over the last few years.
If only one political party would stand up for what the state provides instead of using it as arse to smack when things go wrong in the private sector.
This really is the essence of poor economic understanding. There is huge power in the state to do amazing things but it's only used as a bail out mechanism.
It's an absolutele travesty that the only value they can see currently is tax cuts which won't be enough to stimulate anything.
Truss will talk tax cuts and make the most insignificant cut when in power BTW. Something like insurance premium tax!
Corporation tax they rolled back from lowering last time. Although corporation tax does have two tiers. Main rate and small business rate.
They didn't get to the 17% that they set forward in 2015.
Either way no one political party is talking up investment and there's a gaping hole to be filled.
The idea that the Tory Party is an idealogical united party is absurd.
I didn't say that. All these candidates are hard right. The hard right won the battle in the tory party years ago.
the issue is that they are morally in a different place to us. It’s a function of their education/upbringing/culture that they most likely don’t see what they’re doing as wrong.
Balderdash. They know its wrong. They dont care. Anyway thats supposed to excuse them?
This one covers a bit of Boris and a bit of the two remaining PM candidates as well...
Unless Boris decides that he's suddenly going to throw his hat in the ring too which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
It is factually wrong to assert that the majority of voters in the current system vote for the tories.
Ill give an example of a policy that is deliberately harmfull. Housing asylum seekers in Glasgow but to sppeal decisions you have to travel to liverpool in person. Asylum seekers once initial application are rejected have no access to the amount of money needed to even get a bus there. That is done deliberately to prevent them appealing decisions.
Thats not accidental or unthinking. Its deliberate policy to prevent them making appeals which the majority win if they are physically able to
Deliberate harm.
Brexit if nothing else should have proved that to you – most Tory MPs actually voted remain.
@ernielynch – that’s simply not true. Just shy of 50% (46 iirc) voted to leave
So what I said was completely correct then - most Tory MPs voted Remain.
The idea that the Tories are a idealogically united party is nonsense.
I did not say they were. The one nation tories are hiding on the back benches
All the candidates are from the hard right as the centre right have been defeated years ago .
I didn’t say that. All these candidates are hard right.
Not all Tory MPs are as right-wing as each other. Your suggestion that they are all idealogically exactly the same reflects your frankly simplistic views of politics.
What excuses do you have for the people (the majority of people in current voting system) that vote for them. Many of those people do not have the ‘tory’ upbringing.
Media manipulation. Just look at the crap spouted out by the likes of the Daily Mail and the complete bollocks that circulated via social media, drowning out any sense if rational debate. Plus it's not the majority who vote Tory, it's a function of those who do having the system skewered in their favour by successive Tory governments via boundary manipulation and stuff like only giving extra funding to Tory councils. The system is heavily weighted towards keeping the current lot in power.
Again. Thats not what i said.
Of course Tory mps reflect a range of views but the candidates are all drawn from the hard right. Yes they might have tiny differences but where were the candidates from the centre right? Every one of them was hard right or pretend to be as the hard right have total control of the party
I did not say they were
You said:
There is no struggle between wings of the party.
There obviously is, and it is constantly visible. But you can't see beyond dismissing all Tories as evil and then shutting off all further thoughts.
A week ago Badenoch, who is definitely more brown than Truss, was more popular with Tory Party members than Truss.
Well, Badenoch went full Victorian Values, sorry, anti-woke. I expect that sort of "commmon sense thinking" is quite popular with grey racist types.
My mum and dad were very working class but always voted tory.
As did mine. And their parents voted Tory so that's what they did. No thought applied.
Always bought the newspapers that put over the "labour dun bad economy again" stories.
Childhood "vote blue" training, reinforced over a lifetime, drip by drip.
"suppose we'd better vote for the blues again"
Politics by tribalism.
where were the candidates from the centre right?
Was that not Tom Tughat?
Thing is, if we as a country don't want the Tories to choose such arse awful leaders, the only way to stop that happening, is to join the party.
Where I live, a GE vote is a waste of time, I live in a blue-rosette-on-a-turd area, so if I want an actual vote for the actual PM it has to be via Tory membership, or labour membership, or both.
No struggle between the wings of the party in the leadership election.
As we are talking about the leadership election i didnt think I needed to add that bit.
All the candidates were hard right as the hard right have won the ideological battle.
A week ago Badenoch, who is definitely more brown than Truss, was more popular with Tory Party members than Truss.
That's the 'many of my best friends are black, so I can't be racist' thing. A large chunk of Tory members are probably blissfully unaware of how far along the curve they are. They think they are the 'common sense majority'.
In any other era Tugenhat would be considered hard right. Marginally not as hard right as the rest of the candidates but he is still firmly hard right.
Why wasn't there a process like this after Blair? Why did Brown jump straight in?
I've not even thought about this.
New Labour not into their membership?
A week ago Badenoch, who is definitely more brown than Truss, was more popular with Tory Party members than Truss.
Yet the current favourite to be next PM is not brown.
Badendoch was endorsed by Britain First
So yes she's quite far to the right
https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1549100073241427969?t=-ByDOVARk5R7HvUQy3z6yw&s=19
@tjagain That's not quite right regarding asylum seekers. In fact, they continue to have access to asylum support including payments for travel until their appeal rights are exhausted. Also, appeal tribunals are held across the country, including in Glasgow.
It is only once appeal rights have been exhausted after being dismissed by up to three separate judges that asylum support (accommodation and maintenance payments) can end.
If they wish to lodge further submissions which which have not previously been considered after the appeal process has ended, then they have to travel to Liverpool or Glasgow to lodge them in person, but they can now be submitted by post in some circumstances.
No struggle between the wings of the party in the leadership election.
If you read what I wrote you will see that I said that to be more precise it was a struggle between the right and the hard-right.
It is obvious that Tugnut Hatstand and Suella Braverman represent fairly different positions within the party.
I agree it would be fair to say that all the candidates have been to the right of Johnson though, especially since Ben Wallace didn't throw his hat in the ring. Which some people apparently think it's a great thing as it is amusing and will both punish voters and piss them off. So we should no doubt be celebrating
That’s the ‘many of my best friends are black, so I can’t be racist’ thing.
No it's a "the Tories can support a black candidate" thing.
Something which is very clearly true but some people won't accept because it doesn't sit comfortably within their narrative.
The Tory Party has a multitude of black and asian politicians - deal with it and change the record.
Maybe there's a masterplan from Liz Truss to be the next PM and turn the Tory party into the Lib Dems...
Liz Truss has just been interviewed on radio 4. She really is staggeringly vacuous. She is most definitely the continuums Johnson candidate. Like him she doesn't appear to have have a single a single belief in anything other than her own advancement.
She now says backing remain was 'a mistake' and then went on to sing the praises of 'the opportunities of Brexit'
She didn't have any answer as to how borrowing 40 billion quid to fund tax cuts was economically responsible in the present climate, whereas she'd slated about for proposing a similar borrowing figure to fund investment. She was unclear as to where this forest of money trees she found is
She also made the ludicrous statement that cutting taxes will reduce inflation, despite every single economist saying it will do the exact opposite
Eh? She couldn't say how
Next ... Liz explains why black is actually white
Yes, parts of it clearly can. I don't think I'd argue against that. Do the grass root members choose the MPs though? I didn't think. As I understand, the party central politburo produced an 'A list' of favourite candidates, a second but larger list, selected a few from each and only then let the local areas choose from that final selection. All of this now comes with various diversity targets factored in (the A list was introduced under Cameron I read).
Difficult to agree about where Johnson is/was in terms of left/right, he was largely of no fixed abode. "Whatever floats the public boat today".
I suspect this also applies to Truss, only I don't think she'll be as good at it as Johnson was. She's not got the charming psychopath thing going on.
She didn’t have any answer as to how borrowing 40 billion quid to fund tax cuts was economically responsible in the present climate, whereas she’d slated about for proposing a similar borrowing figure to fund investment. She was unclear as to where this forest of money trees she found is
Tax cuts and spending are two sides of the same deficit.
They don't really borrow as explained several times. They match the deficit spend or tax cut by issuing bonds. The spending/tax cut already takes place without funding.
The bonds are paid for by the private sector with money that has already entered the economy via government issuance.
The bonds allow a drain of reserves to help control interest rates. (that bit is complex) but not necessary for the spending. Governments just choose to do it.
Ideologically though the Tories simply believe a tax cut is better for the economy. And it's mostly a vote winner. They're lying, we know. You can't cut tax and expect a boost in the economy if there's little investment being made by the government. Where does the cash come from to cut? Though I suppose there's an argument for retail taxes to be cut.
They don't need to fund either. It happens automatically. But in Tory talk funding tends to be forgotten about when it actually happens.
Ernie
I think the difference is how we view things. You dig down into the detail and see what is to you significant difference. I look at the broad picture and see those differences as insignificant when in a broad sense all the candidates are offering slight variations on the hard right policy
None of the candidates are anywhere near the conservatism of Heath imo.
She didn’t have any answer as to how borrowing 40 billion quid to fund tax cuts was economically responsible in the present climate,
The world is in a climate of popularist leaders and candidates, and has been since the financial crash 2008. Politicians could tell folks the truth about why we're not going to be able to grow the economy in any substantial way in the next half decade or so, but those people are not going to last long or get elected, as I don't think a broad swathe of the electorate is ready to hear that. I think all politicians know what they're saying is palpably false, or misleading, I think they feel like they don't have a choice.
If you think there is a space to tell the electorate the truth, may I direct you to look up the "Crisis of Confidence Speech" made by that well known multi term President; Jimmy Carter.
No it’s a “the Tories can support a black candidate” thing.
Something which is very clearly true but some people won’t accept because it doesn’t sit comfortably within their narrative.
The Tory Party has a multitude of black and asian politicians – deal with it and change the record.
I think there's a nuance there that means you're both right.
Are members of the Tory party racist - yes, particularly it seems if you broaden that to include xenophobia. Just look at half the shit Johnson and the Brexiteers have come out with.
Are the Tory party racist in their policies - yes. From the overt stuff like the hostile environment, to the simply having an ideology that disadvantages the the poorest in society which are disproportionately non-white.
Are individually Tories capable of putting that aside/denying it was a thing/doublethink and "support a black candidate" probably. It's exactly the same process this kind of person goes through when they realize a colleague is struggling through the visa and immigration system having spent their life being told that immigrants are bad people.
She didn’t have any answer as to how borrowing 40 billion quid to fund tax cuts was economically responsible in the present climate
For once I find myself agreeing with her. As long as she's not talking about slashing spending then tax cuts are a good thing, and borrowing to fill the gap entirely sensible. Even John McDonnell agrees, which is why I guess you're taking Sunak's pro-austerity, pro-recession side of the argument. I'm beginning to think Truss is a stealth socialist. Her 40 year undercover operation might well come to fruition. 😄
Please let it be truss, as it will be hilarious
For once I find myself agreeing with her. As long as she’s not talking about slashing spending then tax cuts are a good thing, and borrowing to fill the gap entirely sensible. Even John McDonnell agrees, which is why I guess you’re taking Sunak’s pro-austerity, pro-recession side of the argument. I’m beginning to think Truss is a stealth socialist. Her 40 year undercover operation might well come to fruition. 😄
Tax cuts for who? Borrowing needs paid back - by who? I've not analysed what John McDonnell says but I suspect he advocates cutting tax on low earners but keeping or even increasing taxes on the most well off. I doubt he was a fan of an across the board NI increase to stop comfortably well off eldery people's assets being taken to pay for care so their children could inherit more (probably without paying IHT).
For once I find myself agreeing with her. As long as she’s not talking about slashing spending then tax cuts are a good thing
She's not only a Tory, but a Fatcha tribute act. Of course she's on about slashing spending.
Aren't the figures being bandied about a 20% cut to all public services?
Just what we need right now... Austerity 2.0
All absolute lightweights the lot of them. Alternative facts mean you no longer need to understand or defend what you've just said or have experience to back it up. They're all little shits just mouthing the words, some do it better than others but their party in power has ransacked this country, they've collaborated with that and they're offering no alternatives.
On the plus side, however, it has brought into sharp focus the vacuity of identity politics.
Not much to look forward to nowadays but Truss as prime minister will be such a chuckle. Boris'more stupid sister.
It would be great if it all was a ruse and Corbin gets a cabinet position.
I think this is probably a pretty accurate summary
https://twitter.com/13sarahmurphy/status/1549840894047752193?s=20&t=cEFLZrr3-ATXVE_ZJ8DTpg