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We found a lovely little cottage with over 4 acres for sale a few weeks ago that would make the perfect starter smallholding for us. The problem is it's been used as an animal shed and now needs planning to turn it back into a house.
Have been going through all the documents for the last planning application to convert it back to a house which was refused in 2012 but went to see the house again today (went inside) and it really has a lot of potential and structurally it all seems reasonably sound.
The work doesnt phase me, in fact the fact that everything needs doing makes it easier than trying to modify and patch up. What is worrying me is
1. How to go about getting a mortgage on a place with no planning permission to be a dwelling.
2. Have there been any recent changes in planning laws that might help with a rural development as some of the reasons given were quite frankly stupid and as though someone had a personal agenda.
Where are you, as I know where we are the council has specific policies to turn unused agricultural buildings into dwellings.
You could apply for planning before actually shelling out for the property?
b r - Somerset area, which councils as even neighbouring ones approving could be good evidence?
wrightyson - surely this would then increase the value before we buy it at great expense to us?
Only if you tell them you've done it?
It's the risk you take - I presume it's cheap because its not got planning and the vendor knows it may not get it ever.
Well unless your looking to rent it to Mary and Jesus types if you don't get planning then its a risk.
If you don't mind me asking, how much we talking here? It always seems the folk with plenty of cash take the risk and get the planning, then there's folks like me who daren't take the plunge as it would end me financially if it went tits up.
Which bracket are you in?
I was asked to give someone some rough calcs for ground works the other day as she had finally got planning. 5 years of battling apparently?
This would be the best chance we have to get a property like this could be when done (does that answer your question?). We are happy to live in a static caravan for a couple of years while it gets sorted out.
Not getting planning is not an option. Everything has to be done above board.
Try to get a local planning consultant involved - small, local architect will know them. These people should know what's likely etc. An architect should come out for a look and give some insight FOC (hoping that you'll then use them).
Could have helped if it was The Lakes.
Am going to see if the planning office will give me any time for a chat to see what they would like to see in the plans.
also have a builder friend in the area who will hopefully be able to give me a proper idea of costs (have a fair idea myself).
Definitely going to be using an architect, need to look around for someone I think would be suitable.
[edit: you already thought of it ] ? our council do the planning meeting, you could go in with the plans that garnered the last refusal and ask 'why didn't this one make it and what would you want to see to give a yes'
It might depend on how long its not been a house for as permission for a dwelling doesn't last forever. Someone around here (Matlock) bought a derelict house and was refused permission to rebuilt it due to length of time it had been derelict.
Make a few enquiries, speak to a town planner. But tread carefully.
Everyone is out to make an easy pound these days and for what it would cost the vendor to go for outline planning is minimal, but could increase the sale price massively. There is probably a reason he/she hasn't done this.
At the end of the day, best of luck.
we looked into doing this kind of thing with a derelict shedgaragecottage in the corner of the inlaws property.
existing structure that had once been lived in, so apparently that aspect wasn't an issue
main objections - several that probably won't apply to you:
that we were looking to do it with a view to renting which meant to approve in a countryside area, we would have to show a net benefit to the existing residents - obviously doesn't apply to you
access (needed to create offroad parking, on a steep slope) - might not apply to you
but the thing that actually prevented it, believe it or not, was -
bats
there were known local colonies of long eared bats and we'd need to have proof that they weren't using the place to roost
oh, if its a smallholding and you can prove you are going to derive income from the land, I think that would be a de facto reason for having a dwelling constructed on the land.
but you want a planner or architect who has done this kind of thing before. not random punters on the internet!
How to go about getting a mortgage on a place with no planning permission to be a dwelling.
places like that normally have 'cash purchasers only' emblazoned all over the advert round here...
mrmonkfinger, bats can be dealt with, all legally and above board. Not sure of the costs though, surveys, relocation ,bat boxes...
Stoner's your man. I recall he had them in his barn conversion and relocated them for building works and brought them back with special bat boxes installed in the roof space.
good luck Andyl, sounds like it'll be great. As many have said speak to planning and ask questions, planning where I live is a nightmare with all sorts of additional rules that don't apply elsewhere (national park with lots of special local rules), but planning are more than happy to speak to you, you can just drop in on certain days and have an informal chat to discuss options and ideas.
Too many people seem not talk to planning and go to an architect for the grand design and just throw it in and are amazed when it doesn't happen. I think the key is to work with them and get them on board not work against them as many seem to.
That is unless you've got the money to fight and fight and fight like a certain somebody in our village who managed to turn a 2 bed bungalow into a £2million 5 bed behemoth which went against just about every planning guidance going. He won 'cos he took them to court 3 times and they gave up 'cos they couldn't afford to fight him any more.
good luck though.
mrmonkfinger, bats can be dealt with, all legally and above board. Not sure of the costs though, surveys, relocation ,bat boxes...
they can indeed.
it was simply the cost of it that killed off that idea for us
what it would cost the vendor to go for outline planning is minimal, but could increase the sale price massively. There is probably a reason he/she hasn't done this.
Don't want to disappoint you, but this is very much the case. The vendor has very likely looked into this already as it would make a massive difference to the price the land would sell for.
You say it needs planning to turn it back into a dwelling because it's had cows living in it, but I'm pretty sure you don't need planning to use residential land/buildings for agricultural use - there's nothing stopping me putting cows in my garden, but I can't use any of our paddocks as garden. So there's a possibility it could still be residential (if it is indeed a 'cottage' and not an agricultural building), or it never was. If it's the latter then you may face an uphill struggle to get planning approved.
If it were me selling the land I'd have made completely sure that I couldn't get planning for a house before putting it on the market. But I'm not the vendor so you may be in luck!
The only reason I mentioned it is because of the whole homes under the hammer type programme which has led everyone to believe they are a developer.
I talked my f i law into applying for planning after he managed to buy a neighbouring garden. He wasn't convinced, I was. Cost him about a grand I think, he went on to sell his bungalow for 225k more than it was worth as a sole dwelling.
He's always got cold beers in when we visit.
8)
oh, if its a smallholding and you can prove you are going to derive income from the land, I think that would be a de facto reason for having a dwelling constructed on the land.
Good point - of course it may result in an agricultural occupancy tie being placed on it, but thats less of a problem if you're planning for it to be a keeper rather than a 'do up and sell on'
The words 'could' and 'proposals' infer that this means little or nothing right now.
The plan is for a small holding, most likely for rare breeds as that is were our interest lies, not with having X00 sheep to try and turn a profit.
There are bats, but fortunately we know a bat expert so can get her involved and expect to have to make provision for bat boxes etc.
Will see if planning get back to me about calling in for a chat with an officer.
The building was originally built as a cottage. I have seen census records to prove it. It has a walled garden around it and orchard separate from the surrounding fields. Problem is it was abandoned as a house during the war and put to use housing livestock. It's a small cottage where the only way for the animals is through the front door so it's not really ideal and no farmer has bothered with it for a long time as a proper barn is much easier to deal with. There is also a lot of asbestos. Unfortunately it was being used for agriculture when the town and country planning act came into force so it's stuck at the moment and the current vendors plans were quite ambitious and not in keeping, made no mention of retaining the use of the fields for farming and no plans with regards to sustainability.
If you don't ask you don't get... go speak to some who knows.
Andy, there's an interesting committee report [url= http://cmis.warrington.gov.uk/cmis5/MeetingsCalendar/tabid/73/ctl/ViewMeetingPublic/mid/410/Meeting/7274/Committee/1264/Default.aspx ]here[/url] (Agenda Item 4, p54-71) which covers many of the same planning issues which you'd be facing. Not very encouraging, though 🙁
IMO/E, green belt policies are designed to keep plebs like us out of the countryside . . .
The plan is for a small holding, most likely for rare breeds as that is were our interest lies, not with having X00 sheep to try and turn a profit.
I don't think profit comes into the agricultural occupation requirements. As ever, worth checking with someone who knows.
I though agricultural ties had to be viable farms/smallholdings to stop people just keeping a couple of token chickens
If you do get to talk to the planning officer ask him/her for advice about a local architect/developer who could help you overturn the decision. I know my local planning officer was happy to recommend a couple of companies that were likley to be successful with an application based upon plans previously submitted.