[Closed] So is this racist?

I'm not sure that you can 'be' offensive?

Communication is somewhat pointless if the receiver decides what my words mean

Toys i teach my kids the same though it the eldest who presses buttons and the youngest who [over] reacts- the eldest also gets told off for being mean though.

as i said its a bit of both depending as the eldest means to be annoying but the youngest does not need to react.

If I'm offended by something, I can choose not to show it. But offence is felt whether I show it or not.

I do not doubt it. But you could also choose to not be offended. Its difficult to do if its emotionally charged, but you can do it. I know I do (not always successfully) .

Communication is somewhat pointless if the receiver decides what my words mean

I think this is what hopefully the racists would start to feel if the racially oppressed stopped letting it get to them. (I'm not proposing this as the only solution, but it is a powerful tool).

Anyway the receiver always decides what the words mean, offensive or not.

Its difficult to do if its emotionally charged, but you can do it. I know I do (not always successfully) .

Where is the choice? And how do you know that you have to make it?

You know that you have to make it when you feel offended.

edlong - Member

There is always a hint of racism in all of us.

It might be pedantic of me to point out that there are plenty of people of a scientific bent who don't accept the concept of race at all as it's popularly understood.

They don't have to accept the concept but just have to live with it as it will never change for a long time ...

Given that the same prejudices are there, if you call them ethnic nationalism, certainly does seem pedantic, but at least recognising that "race" is actually a load of cobblers strips it of any veneer of pseudo-scientific rationalising.

Scientific rationality has no place in social prejudices as we are not predictable and certainly not rational.

You know that you have to make it when you feel offended.

Ok.

I'm talking about a personal concept in dealing with shite you get on a daily basis. Often you have not been given any shite, you just misinterpreted it, or if someone did try and make you feel bad you have to try and deal with it. Ie do not let them get to you internally, so a good, the best, way to get rid of this is to nullify it at source.

EG I get loads of crap here in scotland for being english (and part irish) a bloke yesterday made a particularly cutting and essentially racist remark about the english, unashamedly directed at me. I was pleased because whilst I recognised what he was trying to do, it really had zero effect. I was in away sympathetic as he has been raised to despise me just for country of my birth, which is sad for him really.

toys, it just isn't that simple.
Insults can be intended or not.
They can be acknowledged as such, or not.

We, as a society, tend to decide which prejudices we currently feel anxious about and attempt to eradicate.
Many other prejudices are aired and accepted without question.

Some of their prejudices displayed by the Victorians seem ridiculous to us now, as those are the ones we have deemed unacceptable.
Different prejudices from the same ere are deemed acceptable and even fetishised and glorified, despite all prejudice by definition springing from ignorance.
Damn, some prejudices have even been developed into political ideologies. 😀

How will we seem to those who come after us?
Ignorant, stupid & prejudiced?
I'd imagine so.

toys, it just isn't that simple.
Insults can be intended or not.

What simple? It seems complex to me, and yes they can be intended or not.
What is simple is how to deal with it personally. (simple, not easy though)

the receiver always decides what the words mean, offensive or not.

It depends I am able to express what i think [ sometimes poorly] with words. Its not up to you to decide what i mean its up to me as i pick the words and they have meanings

Your view has a point but at its extreme it fails as senders try to convey meaning with words or there would be no point saying anything I could say anything at all as the reciever decides

Having zoomed in on the 'offending' character, he's a child dressed up, not a doll, in fact he looks a little like a young Michael Jackson. Aren't Gollywogs stylised representations of minstrels, who did song-and-dance routines in dance halls, so this kid in the painting is actually dressed as a grown-up, not a toy.
This alone makes the preservation of the painting important, to enable the poorly educated and easily offended on other's behalf to be educated in history, and the need to actually learn from it, not just paint it out, like IKB's cigar in historical photos, to placate the anti-smoking brigade who felt that images of a great Victorian engineer with a big cigar in his gob will encourage all the kiddie-winkies to start smoking like chimneys.

well communication often fails. I am sorry to tell you this but in my head you do not decide what words mean, that is my decision. I interpret what you say. If you think I have control of your head then you need to take a good long hard look at yourself. 😀

That not what I meant 😉

eg if someone says to me "[b]eff off english scum.[/b]" I know exactly what they mean. But I choose to take it to mean, "[b]I am sad person who has restricted life outlook, so I take it out on others who I feel that my peer group will applaud me for doing so. and I need this sense of recognition and belonging to give my pathetic life meaning[/b]"

If I choose to accept the former I would feel sad, if I accept the latter it makes me feel a bit sad for him, but also I chortle a bit..

I challenge you to disagree with my interpretation of the meaning of his words.

Easy as remember i decide what they mean not you 😛

[img] [/img]

That's what went through my head when I finally spotted what the OP was referring to - Rallo pissing about on a ledge.

Is that racist...

Having zoomed in on the 'offending' character, he's a child dressed up, not a doll, in fact he looks a little like a young Michael Jackson. Aren't Gollywogs stylised representations of minstrels, who did song-and-dance routines in dance halls, so this kid in the painting is actually dressed as a grown-up, not a toy.

I know you're probably just back from the pub. But if you can't see that that's either a golliwog, or someone dressed as one, then maybe you shouldn't have had that last pint.

Hint: Google "images: golliwog"

"young Michael Jackson"
😆

deadlydarcy/junkyard,

Would you be more or less offended if the image was replaced with a swastika?.

carbonfibreismadebyaliens - Member
deadlydarcy/junkyard,

Would you be more or less offended if the image was replaced with a swastika?.

What if they just painted an SS uniform onto young Michael Jackson?

I challenge you to disagree with my interpretation of the meaning of his words.

It's an interpretation that you've made. It could be completely untrue. He could be highly educated, successful and rich, but has just decided he doesn't like English folk. Pretty unlikely I know, but entirely possible. You've chosen that scenario so as to feel condescending pity towards his uneducated way. Because you either felt offended or he intended you to. But hang on, only you derive meaning from the words you hear?

Junkyard - lazarus

what about the apology for Turing being prosecuted as gay or the apology for bloody sunday ?
have we all lost out by sanitising history or have we recognised parts of our past were wrong and done things to redress these?

Right so what we should do is paint over the real history- instead of apologising for Bloody Sunday just remove it from the public records, hide every reference you can to it, pretend it never happened. Paint it out and it's all good.

Nah. If that mural was painted today I can see why people would take issue, but it's an artifact of its time, warts and all. Heritage isn't all rainbows and happiness, the past isn't as black and white (er, oops) as some people would like to pretend. The mural is honest.

Would you be more or less offended if the image was replaced with a swastika?.

I think you're mixing me up with someone who is offended by the mural are you? I haven't mentioned anything of the sort. I have been meditating and learning to control my feelings. ( 😉 @ toys)

What if they just painted an SS uniform onto young Michael Jackson?

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

I didn't get it either but I'm working on not feeling offence whatever the case. However, yours didn't make any to me.

deadlydarcy,

Sorry, I may have misread and somehow picked out your name by mistake.

Fairy nuff, I'm a bit of handwringer at the best of times anyway.

FFS, get a room...

I think Junkyard being intentionally obtuse gave me a small stroke.

teasel,

B&B's round here are like £100.

Can't afford that.

🙂

Truck services motel? Rooms by the hour (don't worry I'll only last ten minutes anyway).

Just answer me this; when are reruns of the Black and White Minstrel Show going to be on Netflix eh? Well?

so what we should do is paint over the real history- instead of apologising for Bloody Sunday just remove it from the public records, hide every reference you can to it, pretend it never happened. Paint it out and it's all good

I never said any of that or argued that.

The mural is honest.

What if they just painted an SS uniform onto young Michael Jackson?

I think Junkyard being intentionally obtuse gave me a small stroke.

Where have I been obtuse?

oh hold I shall just interpret that as you saying i was right as its up to me what you mean and I further decide you are being obtuse as well- sadly you now get to decide what that means though- where will it end?

I feel sorry for your kids, fella. Unless, of course, you refrain from talking the type shit you write around this place.

so what we should do is paint over the real history- instead of apologising for Bloody Sunday just remove it from the public records, hide every reference you can to it, pretend it never happened. Paint it out and it's all good

Although for your analogy to be correct you'd have to keep carrying out bloody sundays, as bloody sunday wasn't a work of art (although to be fair Para's would probably argue that it was) that carries on resounding it's message to every passer by for the rest of eternity.

Otherwise it would be perfectly acceptable for the Southern States to have Klu Klux Klan inspired art in schools and for the Swastika to still be hung outside the Reichstag.

bloody sunday wasn't a work of art (although to be fair Para's would probably argue with that)

Dark, man - real dark.

I still chuckled, though...

What a load rubbish, it's a historical painting done when a golliwog was not an insult, it was a toy doll.

I had one! I loved it.

Are you black?

Where have I been obtuse?

The entire thread.

oh hold I shall just interpret that as you saying i was right as its up to me what you mean and I further decide you are being obtuse as well- sadly you now get to decide what that means though- where will it end?

This isn't coherent, I've read it three times and it still makes no sense.

Your logic on the picture is severely flawed. I'll try and remember to come back to this thread tomorrow and re-explain* why.

*It has already been explained why it's OK more than once ITT.

Is this morphing into the grammar thread again?

I shouldn't laugh, but Florence Kate Uptons 1895 work sounds like a racist pr0n film.

Can we ban rap music while we are on?

Lots of misogyny, anti-white and anti-Asian sentiment (anti-black if you don't consider the N word to be a term of endearment) contained in that 'art form'.

Apart from that it's a bit rubbish and they are still rapping about the same things they were almost 35 years ago. Money, ho's, guns etc.

'they' = rappers BTW. 😉

I struggle with long sentences but just to say I had a golly as a kid and never equated it with black people at all. Still don't.

Trail-Blazer - Member
Can we ban rap music while we are on?

Lots of misogyny, anti-white and anti-Asian sentiment (anti-black if you don't consider the N word to be a term of endearment) contained in that 'art form'.

Apart from that it's a bit rubbish and they are still rapping about the same things they were almost 35 years ago. Money, ho's, guns etc.

'they' = rappers BTW.

You obviously listen to a lot of hip-hop.

I think the images are pretty offensive. Fair enough they should have a place in a museum maybe, but I don't think a school is the right place. If the school says they don't represent the views then have them removed.

Trail blazer, any examples?

You obviously listen to a lot of hip-hop.

'Fo shizzle. 😉 (is that racist?)

I thoguht "golly" as a word was a morph of God, as people don't like to blaspheme, like Jeepers and Gosh. Or my new fav: Cheese and Sprinkles!

[i]You obviously listen to a lot of hip-hop.[/i]

I'm glad someone said that in a polite way.

Can we ban rap music while we are on?

Lots of misogyny, anti-white and anti-Asian sentiment (anti-black if you don't consider the N word to be a term of endearment) contained in that 'art form'.

Apart from that it's a bit rubbish and they are still rapping about the same things they were almost 35 years ago. Money, ho's, guns etc.

I hear this description of rap music quite often and it just makes the person saying it look incredibly ignorant.

I feel sorry for your kids, fella. Unless, of course, you refrain from talking the type shit you write around this place.

Apart from that it's a bit rubbish and they are still rapping about the same things they were almost 35 years ago. Money, ho's, guns etc.

Utter bollocks. Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash etc were completely different to what is produced by a lot of hip hop artists today.

I had a cowboy suit, guns, holsters, kerchief and everything when I was a kid. I didn't equate it with the wholesale slaughter of native Americans. Now I just associate it with sex games with hora and binners.

I feel sorry for your kids, fella. Unless, of course, you refrain from talking the type shit you write around this place.

This isn't coherent, I've read it three times and it still makes no sense.

Your logic on the picture is severely flawed.

I thoguht "golly" as a word was a morph of God, as people don't like to blaspheme, like Jeepers and Gosh. Or my new fav: Cheese and Sprinkles!

Junkyard - lazarus
I think all my kids need to know is the past was a bit more racist than now and we are trying to be less racist. I am not sure they need to see all examples of racism or female oppression or homophobia to get this point tbh.

I reckon kids need to know the truth about the past.

They need to know how endemic prejudice can be accepted as a normal and natural part of society.
Anything else, any 'airbrushing of history' is disengenuous & dangerous.

Now I just associate it with sex games with hora and binners.

😯

'airbrushing of history' is disengenuous & dangerous.

its not airbrushing the past its is doing something in the present.

"airbrushing" history would require painting it all white and pretending it was never there and we never had golliwogs. As others note keeping it in a gallery [ if possible] is a good compromise.

i agree we cannot pretend things did not happen in the past or air brush it but we dont need to keep it

In the 60's they thought homosexuality was a disease that could be cured- I suspect some still do think like that still. Should I give my kids books on this or just explain that folk did this and it was wrong?

Well, you didn't say that, did you? 😀

You said, '... all my kids need to know is the past was a bit more racist than now and we are trying to be less racist..'.

No mention of museums, etc.

In the 60's they thought homosexuality was a disease that could be cured- I suspect some still do think like that still. Should I give my kids books on this or just explain that folk did this and it was wrong?

I dunno - how strongly do you feel about it?
If you're not that fussed, then fine, you could just 'explain that folk did this and it was wrong'.

Homophobia is sill endemic - we are one of the the most liberal countries in the worls in this respect.

You could fob them off with a book or a museum, or show them & talk through examples of how it affects millions of people thoughout the world today - how people are still routinely killed because of their sexuality.

Sticking older examples of prejudice in a museum is a denial of our humanity - it says 'that happened in the past, but we're better now'.
Well, we're not.
Prejudice grows wherever ignorance thrives and if we're not careful, it returns faster than you think.

In the 60's they thought homosexuality was a disease that could be cured- I suspect some still do think like that still. Should I give my kids books on this or just explain that folk did this and it was wrong?

Junkyard -

Would you stop your children from reading Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer?

Do you think that these novels have no value as art and should be removed from schools?

IMO they were of their time and they should be used to demonstrate how things have progressed. The same for the mural. They are also great stories and I loved them as a child.

Besides, it is a mural that shows talking animals that wear clothes and drink tea FFS. It isn't historically accurate.

The headmaster must be a shrewd cookie. Not only does he/she display art that is apparently of "historic and artistic importance" but he also creates the perfect tool for weeding out trouble-maker parents before they arrive. A double master stroke.

DD, worth opening this thread again for you post alone. Another masterstroke.

I bet you folks are proud they brought you up to act like this

They're incredibly proud of me, for the record.

But, what way am I acting - I'm still mystified as to why I was accused of being a racist for [b]not[/b] seeing a golli.

If you read the thread back it was you that came in with the guns blazing, as usual (your condescending edit, for example. Who the hell edits to add condescension). And what was all that shit about high ground and inner light...

I think you need to get a grip of yourself with regard to this place. I continually read posts of yours questioning the validity of other members contributions if you dislike what they write, as if what you contribute is of any worth. For the most part, you come across as an over-bearing, self-righteous fool that doesn't appear to have the time or inclination to take others opinions on-board.

I'm always somewhat wary of the over-confident...

winston it all depends really and in general no i would not stop them but I would explain.

We have read Alice in wonderland and there is no golliwog that I recall so yes its fair to say its not accurate about anything FWIW they did not enjoy it very much.

Tom sawyer - interesting point but I dont know it well enough to comment tbh but I suspect i would be fine with it. Some racism iirc??

I am coming over more puritanical and hand wringing, wont someone think of the children than I intended. i dont want to re write the past or sterilise it all but some aspects are best to just be said rather than read - they are still young though so as they age this will change.

It's called education

I have never read Alice In Wonderland even as I child I didn't get it. The mural strikes me as being quite beautiful and should be kept.

I thought Golly was an Enid Blyton character?

Mark Twain had characters called "Injun Joe" and "Jim" who is called a "****". Injun Jope is also a nasty piece of work.

I get the point but they dont need to see examples of homophobia they just need to know it happened.

Woody I agree it depends on what it is but my kids are young so i shall not be showing them images for a number of years.

Cheers for Tom sawyer info

I'm still mystified as to why I was accused of being a racist for not seeing a golli.

The AiW stuff is a tangent. It only comes up because various people describe the girl in the mural as an AiW like character.

Still I am sure there are plenty of equally offended heads who will be lining up to welcome Ms Neizer Rocha and her offspring to their schools. In the end, they will all be happy and in the appropriate environment.

I am mystified as to why you think I have done this - could you highlight the post ? Please quote me accusing you of racism- you cannot

Now you're getting paranoid. There's nothing in that statement to suggest I was referring to you. I was referring to Deadly Darcy's input.

See, that's what I'm talking about - you have a brainfart and can't help yourself hitting the keyboard before engaging your rational side.

You do have one, right...

Teasel, were you on here before under a different log in?

You seem to have personal issues with Junky.
Any chance of you putting that to one side and behaving like a big boy now so we can continue with an interesting discussion?

No previous, your honour.

Nothing personal, either. Just retaliating - can't resist sometimes.

I'll behave like a [i]big boy[/i] now...

*scrambles around for rolling eye emoticon*

I'll behave like a big boy now...

Good lad.

If you behave yourself this afternoon you can have a little rant at teatime.

But, what way am I acting - I'm still mystified as to why I was accused of being a racist for not seeing a golli.

Who accused you of being a racist? That's pretty serious stuff.

deadlydarcy - I love these threads. Brings 'em all out.

Followed by the piccie of the golli "for [my] benefit".

Ambiguity is a wonderful thing, though, isn't it - affords a lack of commitment...

oops...I'll stop now...

Sorry, Rusty etc.

I hear this description of rap music quite often and it just makes the person saying it look incredibly ignorant.

Sweeping statement I guess but there are plenty of examples of misogyny and forms of racism in the work of some artists - not all.

Check out Ice Cube's back catalogue before he sold out. Black Korea anyone? Can you say anything under the guise of irony?

What about art that depicts black people as slaves or servants? Could that be seen as offensive or an accurate depiction of how life was at that time?

Just asking - I don't really know if the toy in the background of the picture is more symbolic? (It is a toy, right?)

[img] [/img]

@ teasel
Why would you have thought I was talking about you?

To be fair, I can't believe your "not seeing a golliwog" was anything other than disingenuous attempt to wind JY up by implying he was being a handwringing professionally offended type because he saw a golliwog and you "didn't". So in case there was any ambiguity, because we can't have that in your world (apparently), I showed you the [i]very first[/i] picture that google images threw up for the search term "golliwog", just so you couldn't be in any doubt as to why people might see a golliwog where you just saw a black kid. So, no, I didn't call you a racist, but I should have called you a bullshitter. The discussion got reasonably interesting once you left, but here you are again today continuing to insult him.

Now, if you could point out where I called you a racist...?

I already did - in the quote.

But..you're wrong about my motivations. I genuinely did not see a golly/golli in the picture. When I first looked at it in the way the OP requested we do i.e. is this racist - it took me a while to see anything remotely racist and it wasn't until I spotted what I stated was a black kid with an afro that I saw a possible cause. Maybe I'm thick or slow or whatever but I certainly didn't see a golli even though I grew-up in the seventies and lived through the changes associated with this subject.

As far as JY is concerned, I have no idea what a hangwringer is so no, not attempting to prove anything, just interested as to why he saw a golli as an instant image as opposed to a black kid. I get it now - most of you see a golly; I didn't and JY jumped on me for that, thinking I was up to something. I wasn't - I was expressing myself, probably badly.

Anyway, if you weren't implying I was a racist in your "brings em all out" line and it was merely something I inferred through being paranoid, please accept my apologies.

I hope that's clear enough...

I'm happy to leave it at that. And I'm sure you need to keep your post count down. 😉

🙂

Indeed, I do. I have a few days of online ordering to do and knew it was a mistake to frequent this place of a morning/afternoon/evening.

JY jumped on me for that,

What's actually going on, though ? The chap in question just seems to be having a good time sitting up on that ledge.

I'm obviously missing something...

POSTED 15 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Junkyard - lazarus
Have you considered researching the topic first?

Is this really Jumping on you or worth all this that you have done?

Trail-Blazer - Member
Sweeping statement I guess but there are plenty of examples of misogyny and forms of racism in the work of some artists - not all.

Check out Ice Cube's back catalogue before he sold out. Black Korea anyone? Can you say anything under the guise of irony?

So we can condemn all of punk because of Skrewdriver then?