OK guys - I know I have been a part of it but lets not rehash the case for independence on here. too many entrenched positions and at least one poster being either deliberately provocative or profoundly and offensively ignorant
Can we just keep it to discussions around the financial stuff?
deliberately provocative or profoundly and offensively ignorant
thats exactly what I think of you on most threads TJ
The demand for an Independent Scotland is not restricted to the existence of this particular party.
But it's electoral success is due to it being the dominant one. If Alba took 20% of the indy vote we would be in hung parliament territory with a likely majority of non indy parties.
There is the possiblity (in Holyrood elections) of gaming the system with all indy supporters voting SNP for constituency List Alba. But this assumes after recent events that indy voters are willing to leave the SNP in charge and that it can be organised. Last time the SNP were urging SNP for both votes.
In any case no matter how big the majority of indy party MSPs if it was achieved while indy was getting less that 50% in opinion polls and first preferences there would be no indyref.
As for the SNP not existing after a yes vote in the indyref. I doubt it. They have the incumbency advantage. Any examples of countries becoming independent when the dominant party didn't remain in power after indy day?
it needs to be evidenced it will improve the lives of all of us.
In that case, have a look at Denmark, Finland, Norway, Slovakia, Ireland, and Croatia for examples.
They are all a similar size to Scotland and I think most if not all are currently doing better than Scotland within the UK.
Again, what would make you support independence or is your support of the Union unconditional?
Personally I'm largely agnostic. I'm not a unconditional unionist, but neither am I a supporter of independence just for the sake of it. The emotional reasons for it can get in the sea and I'm not convinced that the economic arguments being made for split from England and re-entry to the EU add up. I don't think "the political class" that we have in either countries is capable of managing such an event to the benefit of most folks. Having seen Brexit; and while I don't think for a second that just because that went so spectacularly tits-up that Indy would as well, we can now easily see how the extreme position becomes the default option. FFS even Nigel Farage in 2016 was talking about a Swiss or Norwegian style deal, and look where we ended up - Largely in a place that no one campaigned for.
Not sure that is a good advert for that system.
Ireland. There is your example,
Half* of which is the poorest region of the UK, and the other half* a 2008 case study in why Truss economics doesn't work?
A shambles of trade deals that don't make anyone happy?
A parliament that hasn't sat in years because the loyalists/republicans won't talk to each other?
None of the alternatives are necessarily an improvement, but I'd not say it's going well at the moment.
*not half
Improve scottish, welsh, english and irish lives, all of them. Not just improve scots (which I think is debatable depending on what you want to believe)
Any examples of countries becoming independent when the dominant party didn’t remain in power after indy day?
All of them, I would say.
Can you give any examples of dominant parties that remained intact after indy?
I'm sure the SNP will always be there in name, but it will be a very different beast to what we see today. At the moment Tartan Tories are rubbing shoulders with Red Flag waving socialists. That's fine while everyone is focusing on indy. The minute they start discussing policy there is no way you are even getting some of these people to sit in the same room, let alone support the same candidate.
Ireland does not include NI. Ireland is an independent state
A sweepstake on when this thread gets closed?
The minute they start discussing policy there is no way you are even getting some of these people to sit in the same room, let alone support the same candidate.
agree see the ireland example, oh alright Northern Ireland example
Not sure that is a good advert for that system.
It depends on your view, but supposedly the big advantage of FPTP is that it allows governments to 'get things done'.
I've had quite enough of UK governments being able to 'get things done' to last a lifetime. I'm not just talking about the Tories here. The seeds of my support for indy started with the invasion of Iraq.
Yeah, I'll take governments not being able to get things done for a while, thanks very much.
Anyway, CETA passed in the end and Wallonia's voice was not completely ignored. To me that is how these things should work. A region should not be steamrollered into things for 'the greater good'.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Feuobserver.com%2Fgreen-economy%2F135717
Can you give any examples of dominant parties that remained intact after indy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress
Latest Scottish polling.
SNP 38% (-5 since 9-13 Mar)
Lab 30% (+4)
Con 16% (+1)
Lib Dem 10% (+2)
Predicted Holyrood seats.
https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1649152771797700608
NO way the lib dems will gain 6
Stand by for the tory / labour coalition running Scotland. That will be fun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress
/blockquote>According to Wikipedia two former cabinet members broke off to form their own parties for the first election so not entirely intact. But yeah, the INC did remain the dominant force in Indian politics.
However, again, FPTP.
FPTP provides a massive incentive to stick together. The SNP won't have that acting as glue for their disparate parts.
Stand by for the tory / labour coalition running Scotland.
Well, at least that will mean all the problems Labour/Conservatives talk about all the time will be solved.
That'll be nice.
What kind of a party allows a leadership election to be held without telling those competing that its membership numbers are in freefall, its finances are a mess, its auditors have quit and the investigation into a “missing” £600,000 is about to turn its spotlight on to its former chief executive Peter Murrell and former treasurer Colin Beattie? Oh, and that there has been a £110,000 camper van bought by the party sitting on a driveway for two years.
A sweepstake on when this thread gets closed?
Well DT78 seems to have got the ball rolling, if we ignore the shit flinging there's still hope for it.
erm I merely quoted an insult aimed at me and returned it. So the ball was already rolling in that regard
Indy is the only way to get rid of the SNP.
Really? Faster just to stop voting for them.
Really? Faster just to stop voting for them.
Presumably unionists already aren't voting for them.
If you want indy supporters to stop voting for them then try offering something that would make the Union worth sticking with.
Let's see what Labour are talking about in their adverts...
If you want indy supporters to stop voting for them then try offering something that would make the Union worth sticking with.
Or the other parties could stop being so beligerently unionist. A smart opposition party right now would say, "Lets change our position on Indy from 'No way' to 'Let the people decide in a referendum which our party will take a neutral stance, but individuals can campaign either way'". It would completely change the face of Scottish politics. It would require strong leadership which is of course what they are also all missing.
Yet from the ~6 million population the SNP were only able to raise ~600k of a target 1 million to fund a campaign for indy ref 2. Does this point to a population hungry to revisit the question?
Presumably unionists already aren’t voting for them.
Some did. After stupidly taking Sturgeon at her word that a vote for the SNP wasn't a vote for indy.
“A vote for the SNP is not a vote for another referendum. It is a vote to have Scotland’s voice heard at Westminster.”
And again/
"Speaking on the BBC's The Sunday Show ahead of the 2021 election, she said: "Opposition politicians can't have it both ways. They can say I should have spent the last year focusing on Covid, which I've done, and then say you should have spent the last year developing the plan for independence.
“Thursday is not an independence referendum, it's not asking people to vote yes or no. When we ask people to make that choice, just as we did in 2014, we will put forward a detailed perspective.”"
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/nicola-sturgeons-mandate-claim-flies-27346998
“Lets change our position on Indy from ‘No way’ to ‘Let the people decide in a referendum which our party will take a neutral stance, but individuals can campaign either way'”.
Because a neutral position on indy is not the party position of the unionist parties. Leaving aside tactical voting issues relating to my constituency I would only vote for a pro union party. If I wanted a pro indy party I would vote SNP or Green.
As indy is the number 1 issue in Scottish politics it is not practical for parties not to have a view.
Some did. After stupidly taking Sturgeon at her word that a vote for the SNP wasn’t a vote for indy.
Well, is Scotland independent? So she wasn't lying (about that).
For the upcoming election she was keen on saying a vote for the SNP would be a vote for independence. There's a lot you can accuse her of lying about but I think she's been pretty clear about when a vote for the SNP is a vote directly for independence and when it isn't.
And honestly, the best link you can come up with is the Daily Express? I would be embarrassed posting links like that but when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel needs must, I guess.
Does this point to a population hungry to revisit the question?
Yeah, no appetite whatsoever. It's a mystery why unionists are so terrified of having another one.
If the labour party continues with independence no never and SNP baaad then they will only ever be fighting with the lib dems and tories for the 50% that is the unionist vote
Thus they will forever remain pretty irrelevant in Scots politics and will never be the largest party again.
Yeah, no appetite whatsoever
What then? Just not prepared to pay for it?
Indy is the only way to get rid of the SNP.
Who has been drinking the same Kool-Aid as Lord Robertson?
"Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead." - Lord Robertson
Who has been drinking the same Kool-Aid as Lord Robertson?
Congratulations on continuing your 100% record of completely missing the point and wading into the middle of conversations on Scottish Independence that you have no idea about.
Edit: OK, I've started drinking and if the usual suspects are going to start doing their usual thing it's time for me to step out, I reckon.
Scottish Independence that you have no idea about.
As opposed to you who has the same level of expertise as Lord Robertson?
Edit: OK, I’ve started drinking and if the usual suspects are going to start doing their usual thing it’s time for me to step out, I reckon.
You can only drink and post at the same time if everyone agrees with you? Probably very wise.👍
“Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead.” – Lord Robertson
There is also the argument that devolution has forced the SNP to stop being a single issue protest group and exposing to the world their incompetence in government once tasked with doing more than one thing at once, i.e. agitating and failing at delivering on their populist promises.
The SNP's self-immolation has been the most entertaining thing in the news for many many years. I'm eagerly looking forward to the next episode whatever it is! Bankruptcy? Sturgeon's arrest? Bring it on!
Edit: OK, I’ve started drinking and if the usual suspects are going to start doing their usual thing it’s time for me to step out, I reckon.
A while past that time IMO.
. I’m eagerly looking forward to the next episode whatever it is! Bankruptcy? Sturgeon’s arrest? Bring it on!
Can we have Sturgeon's arrest then bankruptcy?
What kind of a party allows a leadership election to be held without telling those competing that its membership numbers are in freefall, its finances are a mess, its auditors have quit and the investigation into a “missing” £600,000 is about to turn its spotlight on to its former chief executive Peter Murrell and former treasurer Colin Beattie? Oh, and that there has been a £110,000 camper van bought by the party sitting on a driveway for two years.
A party that had a dictatorship and that is performing poorly on health, drugs, policing and crime, and education, delivery of ferries...but where the electorate turn a blind eye because there's only one policy that's front and centre of the political debate?
I can't see Sturgeon getting arrested, I think she's savvy enough that there'll be enough distance between her whatever shenanigans have gone on. Murrell and Beattie will take the hit...and I guess its still unclear where that sits on the scale of 'a bit dodgy' to an illegal act where they could get locked up.
Given the horror show of the Tories, the car crash of the current SNP soap opera, and the impasse in Stormont, perhaps we all need to move to Wales...that parliament seems to run ok! I feel sorry for Yousef, he seems an OK guy that had just been handed one of the worst hospital passes of all time!
If the labour party continues with independence no never and SNP baaad then they will only ever be fighting with the lib dems and tories for the 50% that is the unionist vote
Maybe or maybe they were just hoping the idea of independance might eventually die out like a damp squib. The longer it goes on for the more likely that is to happen. The internal issues within the SNP will not help promote it as many people do see the SNP and independance as linked. Peak momentum was at the last referendum and they failed to get enough support. Even something as cataclysmic as Brexit has really shifted the dial much.
Without a strong SNP and a more dominant set of opposition parties independance will take hit. The next elections will be key, if the SNP maintains current levels of support I can see the independance argument rumbling on, if they are reduced I can see it moving more to the back burner, unfortunately it wont go away.
The momentum for independence is there. Its far more popular among younger people so voting support will rise, Brexit did create a boost for independence.
I expect the SNP to lose a few maybe a dozen seats at the next holyrood elections. they will still be the biggest party and I expect a tory / labour coalition to keep them out which will destroy labour
the independence movement is far bigger than the SNP
I expect the SNP to lose a few maybe a dozen seats at the next holyrood elections. they will still be the biggest party
I think this is right, however while they may be the biggest party, one can already see the cracks appearing, so I wouldn't be surprised if it can't hold itself together. Yousef was the continuity candidate, and it turns out that the project he's continuing is rotten at the top. He beat Forbes by only a slim margin, and I wonder if the many votes for her represent a collective unhappiness with Sturgeon, Murrell et al. A big loss of seats at an election is always the excuse for a blood bath in any political party.
Whatever happened, the money they raised has gone, and I can't see another campaign to raise more money by them is going to be massively successful, this £600,000 was meant to be a million, and the surprise win of Johnson pretty much put the last nail in the coffin of an Indy vote in the near future, and I can't see Labour being mad keen either especially if they take seats at SNP's expense.
a £110,000 camper van
£91,000, and it is an older model. But 110,000 sounds so much better.
£91,000, and it is an older model. But 110,000 sounds so much better
Every single news report seems to have it as £110,000. Even The National, but whatever, £91 or £110 isn’t really much of a difference given the context
one can already see the cracks appearing, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it can’t hold itself together.
I would be surprised. There has already been one attempt to split the party which has been an utter failure with almost no electoral support all of the elected representatives that joined are going to lose their seats ( Alba)
the cracks are obvious and have been there for a long time but we will see. Maybe you are right but I doubt it.
The previous breakaway was led by Salmond who was already discredited and had lost support within the party. I think there was momentum for independance but it peaked in 2014 and has plateaued since then in real terms. I think with the SNP implosion we will start to see a waning of enthusiasm for independance.
The trouble with younger voters is they get older and tend to become more conservative so unless more older people die than young people become eligible to vote the electorate gradually becomes more conservative. Thats how the Tories cling on. Unless of course Scotland has a population that is becoming younger due to dire health care and life expectancy, actually you could be right given the track record of the SNP on addressing health and life expectancy issues.
