What a typical thread from you miserable bastards on here. It's nothing more than it appears to be.
What a typical thread from you miserable bastards on here. It’s nothing more than it appears to be.
You don't have a monopoly on perception.
What Tom did was a nice gesture. What it became was a perfect storm for media, government and anyone else that wanted to hang anything off it. Was that because of the daughters guidance? Possibly. Are the government, and others, milking every last drop out of this for their own ends? Absolutely.
Have others done more than him, but will get not even a speck of the recognition or anything else that has happened to him? Definitely, on account of doing it at the wrong place, at the wrong time. Or rather ‘different’ as opposed to wrong. Like winning the lottery, the week after 1 person wins a 200mil jackpot, and having to share your jackpot with 132 others.
My father served in Aden for a bit and I’m sure he would have been contemptuous of all the plastic patriotism
one thing you can be absolutely assured of is that those doing all the nationalist flag-waving and pledging their hearts to the nation won’t have been within a thousand miles of a front line. Can you imagine Boris Johnson or Farage or Rees Mogg in a war zone?
They just love basking in the reflected glory, which is exactly why they’ve all been jumping on to this.
It all fits in with the ‘plucky’ narrative they’ve written for themselves from their cosy, entitled ivory towers.
Thanks for the clear up with regards Wooton Basset / REF Lyneham. At the time what struck me was the difference in the way the fallen in the Falklands War and those from the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts were treated. Especially considering that the Falklands was Soverign British territory and that Margaret Thatcher wasn't shy when it came to a bit of flag waving.
But again, I don't think the Army handles these sorts of things very well. They seem to be taking advantage of the situation as much as anyone. It's all a bit American for my typical British reserve.
Bloke raised a load of dough for the NHS - RIP.
Bloke raised a load of dough for the NHS – RIP.
I couldn't agree more.
So why all the 'Eagle Comic WW2 sepia tinted' stuff? Why not have a guard of honour of NHS staff and a fleet of ambulances?
Other than the fact they are too busy - worked to a standstill trying to cope with a pandemic mismanaged from day one by the crooks and incompetents in charge.
well lots of old soldiers died in the last year, but I didn’t hear them have a historic plane fly past, a 14 gun salute, filmed by the BBC or the coffins being carried by pallbearers from the regiment.
Some of them may have even spent the last 50 years doing charity work rather than walking up and down their patio for a week. However, they didn't capture the zeitgeist during a pandemic and it is as simple as that.
It's about emphasizing nation, service and self sacrifice, it's softening up for austerity.
The very fact that we need “NHS Charities” is a disgrace anyway.
I'm with the Germans on this, the fact that we need charities at all is a disgrace. A civilised society would fund all this type of activity through taxation not "noblesse oblige".
couldn’t agree more.
So why all the ‘Eagle Comic WW2 sepia tinted’ stuff? Why not have a guard of honour of NHS staff and a fleet of ambulances?
Other than the fact they are too busy – worked to a standstill trying to cope with a pandemic mismanaged from day one by the crooks and incompetents in charge.
Err, because the guy raised £30m and raised the spirits of a nation at a time of national crisis. I think that merits some appreciation and consideration.
Really can't see what the fuss is all about. So some elements of the British press have jumped on it as they do at every opportunity. That is hardly the fault or even original intention of Tom Moore or his family. Can't believe people are so surprised of the cynical nature of our press to sell more of their papers. Why not waffle on and criticise a multi-millionaire footballer doing good stuff to feed disadvantaged kids? You could say Rashford himself seems to have benefitted the most from his efforts. Earned himself an MBE, raised his profile from the other footballers. Can't have done his bank balance any harm and there will still be hungry underprivileged kids long after he's got bored of it.
Yes he was an ex soldier and the 'wartime spirit' has been called upon by the press to help the nation out in a different national and global crisis and Tom Moore was a great vehicle to do that. Just a good feel good story. I really can't seen anything clandestine about it.
I think the NHS staff get enough recognition. Half my family work in the NHS in various capacities and they are not asking for the recognition and find it quite embarrassing. They just want to crack on with their jobs and don't crave the attention. Can't think of anything more we can do to recognise the amazing efforts they do day in day out. Doesn't mean we can't recognise the efforts of other non-NHS people too who are making their own contribution to making the current crap we're all going through just a little bit easier to bear. And Raising £30m is an effort and a half....has anyone on here done that?
Don't like all the 'sepia nostalgia' then don't buy the papers. I've managed to avoid it but I don't buy papers (haven't a clue what some on here are waffling on about. Just an old man raising some money for charity as far as I was aware until all this guff has come up). Just some people who like to look for the bad in everything and trying to turn it into something political.
The blokes dead now, but I guess some will think that was just another cynical ploy to gee up the nationalists.
’m with the Germans on this, the fact that we need charities at all is a disgrace. A civilised society would fund all this type of activity through taxation not “noblesse oblige”.
Agree with this in principle but ironic that the Germans don't fund their health service by taxes. Its a public/private hybrid!
The very fact that we need “NHS Charities” is a disgrace anyway.
This wasn't money to fund the NHS, it was money as a thank you to the workers. See it like a very small bonus to NHS workers (as NHS don't get bonuses!)
That is hardly the fault or even original intention of Tom Moore or his family.
Of Sir Tom - maybe.
Of his family. I'm not so sure. I'm prepared to give benefit of the doubt but there is just something slightly nagging about this, so I'm waiting to be proved right or wrong depending on your viewpoint
(maybe not original intention, but opportunity spotted and now being exploited)
I think we were in tiered lockdown before Christmas so presumably in their location a foreign holiday was allowed. It was in his bucket list of places to go before he died. Do you really think that he and his family would be able to sneak off in full lock down for a foreign break if it was not allowed. This overplaying has everything to do with our press notably the BBC and not I suspect the family.
Bloody hell it’s interesting to see how the pandemic has effected everyone.
Old man gets off his arse and raises a load of money for the NHS, I missed the bit where his daughter had a gun to his head to do it.
His money has directly improved things in my local hospital for myself and other staff
People I know who were in the forces have absolute respect for him, and are not questioning what he has achieved.
Which ever government is in power the NHS will always be under funded, and which ever party is in power ‘normal’ people will not pay enough taxes to make the nhs perfect
RIP Tom Moore, you got off your bum and raised a load of money when you didn’t have to - good on you.
Ok I admit to being a bit naive here. But how has his family profiteered from the charity fund raising? How is it still being exploited by the family? Honestly not being argumentative just don’t understand how he was exploited.
By the way to those who say their family members served and don’t wear ties / blazers or talk about their experiences, I guess I’m the complete opposite of that. Pretty much as far back as we have traced our family have been serving members of the armed forces. I was born in Aldershot, I served. My mum was in the army as was my dad. He served in many wars and conflicts, some we have heard of some we haven’t. My brother recently retired from the army after 26 years service, reaching the highest rank in our family. Funnily enough he’s now a mountain bike instructor.
None of us talk about our experiences to civilians. However we all open up to other former serving members. My kids know both myself and my brother were in the army, but that’s all they know. My brother has a fairly famous picture of him in Iraq (famous in the right circles), his kids don’t know anything about it. Every November we remember our fallen comrades, some of the family wear a blazer with a regimental tie, their medals and a beret. I occasionally wear a regimental tie for work, occasionally I’ll wear a lapel pin. My mum always wears a lapel pin for my dads regiment (they lost a lot of dear friends and it’s something very special to them both).
Most soldiers, or at least the ones I’ve known, which is a fair few, we don’t join for the politics. I went to war for the people of this country. For my family and my friends. I honestly think some people on this forum need to travel past Benidorm and open their eyes.
The Lyneham / Brize homecomings, yeah it hadn’t happened before. But nor had 24 hour news. Previous conflicts were a long way away and didn’t cover the same amount of time as Afghanistan. The only really example is the Falklands were the repatriation was handled completely differently (a hell of a lot less daily air travel between the Falklands and what was happening in Afghan).
Some people are patriotic, doesn’t make them racist, loons , ideological morons or brexiteers.
I’m naive as already said. But to me it was an old man trying to raise a small amount for charity, this snowballed. He raised a lot of money.
I didn’t know the chap even though we are very local to each other. I won’t attend his funeral. But I will stop doff my cap and say RIP old fella, you did some good in bad times.
Old man gets off his arse and raises a load of money for the NHS, I missed the bit where his daughter had a gun to his head to do it.
Not saying that.
Old soldier gets off his arse to raise a lot of money for the NHS
Daughter(s) realise by doing a bit of promotion the impact can be greatly increased; campaign goes viral and then mainstream and leads to the (deserved) results for Sir Tom. I don't think anyone is saying they told him to do it.
- all good so far
I'm very very slightly sceptical about what next. That's all - remains to be seen.
[edit - and I don't even know why i'm sceptical....but I am]
This wasn’t money to fund the NHS, it was money as a thank you to the workers. See it like a very small bonus to NHS workers (as NHS don’t get bonuses!)
Same view for why this is a thing I'm afraid.
People I know who were in the forces have absolute respect for him, and are not questioning what he has achieved.
I don't think anyone here has.
What are you sceptical off? I can’t see where the family would be doing this for their own self interests?
Me personally in my little life bubble, I’d hate the attention. I just can’t get my head around what would be in it for his daughter?
I’m still confused as to how they managed a foreign holiday during lockdown.
Because it was completely legal at the time and British Airways said, "would you like to a free holiday to Barbados?".
I don't know. I said, I don't know. I also said very very slightly. Not highly sceptical, or even just sceptical.
Maybe I've just been worn down to it, and on the outside my rule of applying Hanlon's razor (or a version of) would make me absolutely accept it. But there's just something - maybe from the interview I saw a couple of days ago.
Waiting and wanting to be proved right (or wrong)
what would be in it for his daughter?
If I wanted to be a total sceptic (and this is total whataboutery) - but the authorised biography, the speaking tour about what is what like growing up with Sir Tom as your Dad, the official Sir Tom commemorative LP......
I might be sceptical but you have to be highly naive to think there are not a queue of publicists that would jump at the chance.
I'm like you - I'd hate the limelight. But TBH they have that already, it's a choice now to withdraw or not.
Yeah fair do’s re the book, but yeah I am that naive as it didn’t enter my mind.
Apart from the walking for charity not sure his life story would merit a book, But what do I know?!?
Im normally very suspicious with regards to ulterior motives, but not seeing it here. Could well be wrong, hopefully not.
Apart from the walking for charity not sure his life story would merit a book
Nor me - but I bet if they wrote it, stuck in a few pictures, it would sell by the truckload.
Good luck to him, his family and anybody who takes an interest in it. It’s not for me, all rather too saccharine I’m afraid, but nobody is forcing anybody to watch the funeral, donate money or do anything else. I just tune out when it comes on. He seemed like a decent old gent, but other than his fantastic age, didn’t seem in any other way extraordinary for someone of his generation.
Err, because the guy raised £30m and raised the spirits of a nation at a time of national crisis. I think that merits some appreciation and consideration.
Absolutely. Care to explain why it had to be WW2-themed, though?
It could have been a celebration of 75+ years of the NHS...
Can you imagine Boris Johnson or Farage or Rees Mogg in a war zone?
I am struggling to think of any other two people who would exemplify the term REMF better.
The WW2 stuff was a function of who Moore was. He organised the reunions of his wartime battalion for 60 odd years, so it was a major part of who he was. My father served in the same regiment during the war, although in different battalions, but he wasn't big on reunions etc, although thanks to Moore I now know what one of his old ties represented, but I don't recall him wearing it much.
So every old soldier who fought in WW2 gets a Dakota flyby and gun salute now?
Wow, better tell the Battle of Britain flight to order more aviation fuel....
No but the family of someone who has raised a shed load of cash, became a national figure, is likely to be offered special recognition by the successor of his former regiment and as remembering his time served was a major part of who he was, it is hardly surprising the family took up the offer.
I dunno, if it was my dad they'd be getting told to save their money and donate what they would have spent where its needed.
But that's just me.
So every old soldier who fought in WW2 gets a Dakota flyby and gun salute now?
Wow, better tell the Battle of Britain flight to order more aviation fuel….
No they didn't, because they didn't raise millions and catch the public mood in such an unplanned and totally unexpected way during a global pandemic.
Also, speaking as an old soldier possibly they, and maybe even Sir Tom himself wouldn't have asked for those things.
This is the most depressing, joyless, miserable thread I've seen on here for quite some time.
Someone does something selfless to show his appreciation for the NHS, but no more so than many others have done. Through no fault of his own and unprecedented global events he gets more recognition for it than he otherwise might. Less clever and cynical people than the STW regulars are uplifted by it. He catches the public mood. He gets a bit of smaltchz for his send off. The funeral stuff to wasn't to my taste particularly but an awful lot of the public thought it was appropriate at a time when there is little else to celebrate. Where's the harm FFS?
Yes, NHS underfunding, government shit show, brexit, gammons, yada, yada. Some valid points. None of them the fault of the gent in question, nor his family, nor the less intellectually superior folk who took some comfort from it.
The sly, unfounded insinuations about the motives of his family are particularly unpleasant.
it is hardly surprising the family took up the offer
His former regiment wasn't a squadron in the RAF, so why the Battle of Britain element?
The sly, unfounded insinuations about the motives of his family are particularly unpleasant.
They are, which is why I haven't made any.
What I object to is the festishisation of a long ago conflict into some kind of founding myth for the nation and all the jingoistic nationalist bullshit that goes along with it. And a special place in hell for those that hijack it for political means.
Fetishising a past conflict for political gain is tasteless and dangerous and the scoundrels that do it need chasing down the street in their socks.
Where’s the harm FFS?
Where do you start?
It continues / adds to the 'British exceptionalism' which does great damage to the country economically and socially due to our refusal to see our neigbours as anything other than enemies.
It continues / perpetuates the Tory wet dream that the NHS is really a charity and should be funded by goodwill / clapping rather than cash.
They are, which is why I haven’t made any.
Which is why I didn't say YOU, but others on the thread have.
What I object to is the festishisation of a long ago conflict into some kind of founding myth for the nation and all the jingoistic nationalist bullshit that goes along with it. And a special place in hell for those that hijack it for political means.
In general terms I wouldn't disagree with much of that. But I don't think that's what happened here.
It was a funeral for someone who caught the public mood in a quite unprecedented way during one of the biggest crisies the country has ever faced. The government (and I suspect ANY government in the same circumstances) and a large swathe of the public thought it appropriate to mark his passing. As part of that there was a nod to his WW2 service, which was an important aspect of who he was as a person.
It's easy to subject every single news event to forensic examination to uncover malevolent government manipulation or conspiracy. Sometimes, just sometimes there isn't any.
Where do you start?
It continues / adds to the ‘British exceptionalism’ which does great damage to the country economically and socially due to our refusal to see our neigbours as anything other than enemies.
It continues / perpetuates the Tory wet dream that the NHS is really a charity and should be funded by goodwill / clapping rather than cash.
All of that from an old man's funeral?
This is the most depressing, joyless, miserable thread I’ve seen on here for quite some time.
yep....and that’s saying something on this site!
blokeuptheroad gets it perfectly in my opinion. Thanks for finding the words that I couldn't.
This is the most depressing, joyless, miserable thread I’ve seen on here for quite some time.
You’re going to be a right bundle of laughs when we get the Phil the Greek festival of dying thread in a few weeks / days.
It’s easy to subject every single news event to forensic examination to uncover malevolent government manipulation or conspiracy. Sometimes, just sometimes there isn’t any.
And much of the time, there is. No conspiracy in this, but the rush of many of our more nationalist politicians to attach themselves to any bit of 'Dunkirk/Blitz Spirit' is what we used to call 'unseemly'. The tendency to reverse this into attacking anyone who even seems to dissent even a little bit as 'unpatriotic' is also now commonplace. Heaven help the newsreader/reporter whose poppy is on their other jacket, or underneath a coat in the pissing rain...
You’re going to be a right bundle of laughs when we get the Phil the Greek festival of dying thread in a few weeks / days.
Thank god for iPlayer/Youtube.
You’re going to be a right bundle of laughs when we get the Phil the Greek festival of dying thread in a few weeks / days.
If you imagine that because I don't think impugning an old man and his family over his funeral arrangements is seemly, that I must be a bowler wearing flag draped royalist you'd be wrong 😉
Though I won't be celebrating his or any other death when it comes.
You’re going to be a right bundle of laughs when we get the Phil the Greek festival of dying thread in a few weeks / days.
Mind you....
Do you reckon we might get a Bank Holiday as a result?
Silver linings and all that...
Do you reckon we might get a Bank Holiday as a result?
I think wfh and everything being shut has taken the magic from bank holidays ( not that I skive off on the odd day I wfh - definitely not)
If you imagine that because I don’t think impugning an old man and his family over his funeral arrangements is seemly, that I must be a bowler wearing flag draped royalist you’d be wrong
I don't imagine that. Actually the way you made your points has been to the point and courteous, although the gratuitous dig about 'intellectual superiority' was a bit of a let-down. Otherwise, I have read what you have written and taken it at face value.
