looney left
Are you a S*n journalist by any chance? I mean really, you use that ridiculous phrase and then expect anyone to take your post seriously? The only thing loony about the left is that they continue to delude themselves that the labour party is a place where they can further their cause of representing the interests of working people.
The idea that someone such as Rachel Riley experiences the same level of racism in society as a black person such Diane Abbott would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.
I doubt any single person in the UK has had to deal with the same about of racist abuse as Abbott. She has been a lightning rod for both overt nasty racists, and lazy casual racists, for decades. But that doesn't mean people of Jewish decent don't also have to put up with racist abuse. It's the claim that racism isn't an issue for them, or other groups, that has landed so badly.
Having worked with Traveller kids as a cub leader I can assure you that the racism they experience is very real and in many ways more tolerated than racism against black people
I've had random chats with complete strangers in a certain area of Cardiff near the traveller site, and people launch into diatribes about Travellers that were pretty shocking. I mean, yes, there's crime and antisocial behaviour, but so there is in other parts of Cardiff or the Valleys that are full of settled people and there's no caravan in sight.
This is exactly how racism happens, and I don't think people realise that. In the American deep south there was always a 'yeah but' justification for it just like they are doing for travellers.
and in many ways more tolerated than racism against black people
Absolutely. I have seen how racism against the traveling community is tolerated on STW!
That is kind of Diane Abbott's point, the racism is relatively low-level. And as you point out sufficiently low-level to be often tolerated.
Travelers, and Jews, are never described in terms that approach the "N" word. I bet pikey goes through the swear filter.
And yes of course I had read what she said. I totally understand the point she was making. Perhaps you can pick holes in the precise wording but to claim that it justifies suspension from the Labour Party is utterly absurd.
How about Kier Starmer dealing with real racism and islamophobia in the Labour Party?
Edit : Yes pikey isn't stopped by the swear filter, can you guess why? That's right, because it is not anywhere as bad as the N word. I bet yid goes through too.
It looks like The Guardian was unable to find an organisation to speak on behalf of the gypsy and traeller communities.
You are aware, of course, that the nature of a letters page it's up to people to choose to write to the newspaper. The newspaper doesn't ask people to write to it.
On this occasion, the letters editor spotted that Abbot was about to say something stupid and newsworthy, and allowed her to fall in the hole she had dug herself.
If Abbot doesn't want to be quoted saying thick things, she shouldn't email thick things to the letters page of a national newspaper.
It was just pretty dumb, both factually in terms of what she was trying to argue and politically in the fact that she actually wrote it, knowing that the Labour Party’s relationship with Judaism has been a teensy-weensy bit sensitive in the past couple of years
Not really, what has happened was always inevitable, she is a popular left-wing politician, it was just a matter of time.
Sooner or later she would have said something for the planned suspension to kick in. If it wasn't a comment in a letter it would have been something else, perhaps a simple remark condemning an act of brutality by the Israeli government in the illegally occupied territories would have had her suspended for anti-semitism.
The Labour Party has been hijacked by people who are determined to make it barely distinguishable from the Tory Party, anyone on the left who rejects this needs to decide whether they want to remain prisoners or simply wait for their own expulsions.
Is the tin foil hat to protect Keir Starmer and his cronies from the anti-semitic conspiracy inside the Labour Party?
Or the paedophile conspiracy inside the government?
She’s worse than Hitler!
I'm just saying, Hitler never suggested that being a Traveller was like having red hair.
There's a particular type of political narcissism on the far left that reacts to acts of incredible stupidity and short-sightedness by blaming the people who point out that they're being incredibly stupid and short-sighted.
Abbott is a leading member of the Labour party, the Labour party has recently had an issue with claims of anti-Semitism, wading into that argument by sending a national newspaper a "first draft" of a letter that certain to become headline news becasue of it's content is either really spectacularly short sighted, or an absolute gift to the section of her own party that would prefer it if she wasn't in their party anymore.
is either really spectacularly short sighted, or an absolute gift to the section of her own party that would prefer it if she wasn’t in their party anymore.
Which is why I think it was entirely deliberate. She's challenging Starmer to kick her out, probably because she can't bring herself to leave of her own accord, and because she knows that reawakening the AS issue will further damage Starmer in the polls. This is the action of someone who has stopped giving a shit about what voters think of the labour party.
I’m just saying, Hitler never suggested that being a Traveller was like having red hair.
I reckon a red-headed traveller probably broke into Dianes shed and nicked her bike though. That would explain her attitude
Was the choice of “red heads” also deliberate do you think Dazh? If it’s the current party leadership she’s hoping to drag into a ditch?
EDIT: I’m hoping it was all a lazy mistake on Abbot’s part, personally. But even then, it does show a certain attitude towards anti-semitism that will have a lot of distractors of the possible alternative government they were offered at recent elections claiming… “I told you so”.
😞
on the far left
LOL! She's "far left" is she? I guess she probably is to you Nick! 😄
And a lot of Daily Mail readers!
According to Reginald D. Hunter the British have a class system because they are crap at racism. He gives anti-ginger sentiments as an example of the British people being crap at racism.
Which is why I think it was entirely deliberate.
applies a level of political manoeuvring to some-one who didn't check which draft of a controversial letter they were sending to a national newspaper. I think you maybe setting the bar a wee bit too high for her to reach.
I don’t think Abbot was joking, or is a comedian, Ernie.
I don’t think Abbot was joking, or is a comedian, Ernie.
No I don't think that either. What a strange thing to say.
Well, Reginald D. Hunter is a comedian, and was joking.
I reckon you could be onto something @kelvin. First they came for the gingers…
What I want to know binners is why after a prolonged self-imposed absence you have suddenly returned to this thread with such renewed enthusiasm?
Is it really because a left-wing black woman has been suspended from the Labour Party? Is that really what gets you excited?
What I want to know binners is why after a prolonged self-imposed absence you have suddenly returned to this thread with such renewed enthusiasm?
I was bored and I'd missed you
And no doubt to make hilarious comments like this one which plays on the prejudices people feel towards travelers (is it racism?) and which kimbers highlighted earlier.
I reckon a red-headed traveller probably broke into Dianes shed and nicked her bike though. That would explain her attitude
Yup, travelers are all thieving bastards who break into people's sheds, that's why the 'joke' worked so well.
Seems like not all instances of AS in the labour party are treated equally. I wonder why that is?
https://twitter.com/libcomorg/status/1247530355180990464?s=20
Re Diane Abbott, I think the truth is probably just that she's just completely burned out? She's always done it the hard way, it's the only option she had, but few people can do that for long. The corbyn years were obviously pretty brutal for her too. I can't forget that at one point she was the target of literally half of all the abusive tweets targeting female MPs... But I'm pretty much at the point of remembering her as she was, and wishing she'd fade into the background. But then it's got to be very hard for someone that's fought so hard and taken so many hits to go quietly.
@dazh, Astor could be a pretty awful person but she was still the first female MP to take her seat, that's significant. I haven't read reeves book but writing about an important figure doesn't make you a sympathiser or approver so unless it was all revisinist or gushing praise, is it even a thing?
Seems like not all instances of AS in the labour party are treated equally. I wonder why that is?
This is a weird claim. First, Reeves didn't write an "entire chapter" about Astor - she wrote about 2 and a bit pages. Second, it was a book about influential MPs - so mentioning Astor is hardly out of place. And thirdly, the section repeatedly calls Astor an appeaser. It's neither an act of anti-semitism in itself, nor is it an endorsement of an anti-Semite.
Re Diane Abbott, I think the truth is probably just that she’s just completely burned out?
Yes - she was undeniably smart and sharp as a tack early in her career. She didn't get into Cambridge by being thick (unlike the King).
The idea that someone such as Rachel Riley experiences the same level of racism in society as a black person such Diane Abbott would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.
And to claim that black people suffer no worse racism in the UK than Jewish people do is not only mind boggling daft but imo also deeply insulting as it very obviously falsely minimises what black people are subjected to.
For intents and purposes Rachel Riley, to take her again as an example, would be seen as a white European woman as she goes about her day to day living, there is no way that someone such as Diane Abbott, who has faced appalling levels of racism in her life, would be seen as no different to any other white European woman.
Not sure how you've used Rachel Riley as an example, she is half Jewish, an Atheist, has never been to Israel, been in private schooling and university through her life and only received criticism after speaking out on the previous anti-semite issues Labour suffered.
If you trade in Rachel for an Orthodox Jew walking around London or the likes then you'd be closer.
As for Diane Abbott, honestly, she's always been prone to making errors, she has survived a lot though through her career, but she's turning 70 soon, and like a lot of the older politicians, they're not really showing themselves as being up to date as they should be, we laugh about the House of Lord with this sort of thing, but there's a lot of septuagenarians in parliament as well.
What a gift this is to the vile abusers who always hated her.
Yes – she was undeniably smart and sharp as a tack early in her career. She didn’t get into Cambridge by being thick (unlike the King).
Working class, black, female, went to Cambridge in the 70s. That's some achievement.
Alright I am no fan of Abbot but for the life of me I really cannot understand the meaning of what she said.
Seriously, this is a language problem for me. I can read the sentence and understand she was comparing different races but I just cannot get the meaning behind them. Seriously.
Mods, this is a serious question.
Can someone explain where/what exactly she said was actually wrong? Is the way she referred to different races of skin colours wrong?
My cultural understanding is different etc and sometimes a direct translation from another language might end up completely offensive.
Not sure how you’ve used Rachel Riley as an example, she is half Jewish, an Atheist, has never been to Israel, been in private schooling and university through her life and only received criticism after speaking out on the previous anti-semite issues Labour suffered.
🙂 You have highlighted precisely my point - the absurdity of it all! Only I didn't go into details.
And to be fair you also made Diane Abbott's point.
Rachel Riley is a particularly poor example of a Semite, she doesn't even look vaguely Middle-Eastern. In fact she could easily pass as Scandinavian with Viking ancestry, certainly more so than Middle-Eastern. She isn't even Jewish from a religious perspective!!
And yet despite all that she has been involved in very high profile disputes claiming that she has been the victim of anti-Semitism and racism!
In fact if she hadn't told the world that she is Jewish (although apparently not racially or religiously) very few people would actually know.
Contrast that with someone like Diane Abbott and then claim that there is no difference, and that the average black person doesn't suffer far more racism than the likes of Rachel Riley. Even a mixed race person will experience far more racism than the sort of people who have to publicise that they are Semites.
Diane Abbott has been suspended from the Labour Party for telling the truth. She didn't claim that anti-semitism was acceptable, she simply pointed out that it wasn't of the same magnitude of anti-black racism.
When was the last time that you heard of the police being accused of being institutionally anti-semitic? Would it be reasonably to suspend someone from the Labour Party for pointing out that racism against black people is a bigger problem within the UK police than racism against Jewish people?
Seriously, this is a language problem for me.
Paraphrasing, she was basically saying that discriminating against Irish, Jewish and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people isn't real racism as they are generally white. Presumably compared to the racism black people get.
Black people might well suffer more racisim overall, but it doesn't make being racist against any other group any less racist.
To bring this thread back to Keir Starmer, since it's supposed to be about him, if Starmer believes that anti-semitism and anti-black racism should be treated exactly the same why doesn't he do something about this?
From last month:
Apart from the fact that he is a monumental hypocrite and totally dishonest.
Paraphrasing, she was basically saying that discriminating against Irish, Jewish and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people isn’t real racism as they are generally white. Presumably compared to the racism black people get.
Black people might well suffer more racisim overall, but it doesn’t make being racist against any other group any less racist.
Thank you for the explaining.
Woww, I didn't get that at all until your explanation especially the comparison of other races.
Now I understand why she got into trouble.
To be fair (!), there may be a murkily correct point in the bottom of Abbot's bag: it does seem odd to talk about white British people being racist to white Irish people when both groups are of the same race - at least in the sense that most people would understand it.
However, even if that were correct (and it's not, if you read the carefully written report about racism which was the subject of the original article in the Guardian), it's neither compelling nor helpful.
In fact, it's about as compelling as, say, Richard Burgon, or Jeremy Corbyn, or Chris Williamson saying "well, I can't be an anti-semite because Palestinians are semitic, and everyone knows I think they're great".
There is certainly a comparison between the absurdity of calling Diane Abbott, a black woman who all her life has both been exposed to racism and fought racism, and calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist, I wouldn't deny that.
Diane Abbott won't actually be the first black person that I personally know connected to the Labour Party who has suggested that Jewish people can't really be the victims of racism because they are white.
It is of course an ridiculous claim to make but not entirely surprising that some black people within the Labour Party might feel that Starmer takes alleged anti-semitism extremely seriously and yet apparently doesn't give a monkeys about 'real racism' against black people.
White people looking after white people you could say, with undoubtedly an element of truth. After all why hasn't this made the national headlines and why has no one been suspended?
Forde’s report also found that some of the attitudes expressed towards Diane Abbott and other black, Asian and minority ethnic MPs in private WhatsApp messages among staffers hostile to Jeremy Corbyn represented “overt and underlying racism and sexism”.
Abbott has said she received no apology for the comments, which Forde said used “expressions of visceral disgust, drawing (consciously or otherwise) on racist tropes, and they bear little resemblance to the criticisms of white male MPs elsewhere in the messages”.
How many people have even heard of the Forde Report?
I see her point, prejudice and racism are two cheeks of a different arse. Obvious really. Although why she should decide to twist about it now is odd. Maybe she's just a bit pissed off at having to listen to the racism card being played too often for convenience.
Obvious really. Although why she should decide to twist about it now is odd
It was in response to a report.
she was basically saying that discriminating against Irish, Jewish and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people isn’t real racism as they are generally white.
And binners helpfully made Diane Abbott's point for her. His 'joke'about a traveler stealing a bike from Diane Abbott relied on well-known anti-traveler prejudice and stereotyping.
It hasn't been moderated presumably because it hasn't been seen as 'real racism', otherwise it most certainly would have been moderated.
Which was precisely Diane Abbott's point.
Getting back to St Starmer.
Looks like his team really are targeting taking Scotland back from the SNP starting on St Georges day.
Glasgow is first on the list via the unusual method of annexing it into England.
Love St George. Love Cambuslang. Hate dragons. Simple as.
I notice Ernesto that you conveniently ignore my comment about the hair colour of bike thieves?
Gingerist!!!