[Closed] Should GM Police have apologised?

It's almost as if they don't want their religion to be associated with terrorism!

Meanwhile in another shocking development David Cameron and Defence Secretary Michael Fallon have been forced to say sorry for telling a pack of lies about the Tooting Imam Suliman Gani supporting terrorism, when they were trying to smear the Labour candidate in the London mayoral election. It's political correctness gone mad!

To be fair to them no non-Muslim terrorists have bombed Manchester in the last 30 years

To be fair to them no non-Muslim terrorists have bombed Manchester in the last 30 years.

Ooo, naughty!

Interestingly MI5 have recently raised the threat level on the mainland in relation to Northern Irish terrorism.

This is sensationalist old news, keep up!

Nah, of course not, pandering to religious fruit loops, putting them beyond criticism is part of their growth strategy.

Thoughts? Should they have said sorry, or is it [s]PC[/s] respect for other people gone too far?

Is what you meant to say...isn't it?

It seems pretty straightforward, would it have made any difference to the exercise if the "suicide bomber" hadn't used that phrase?

I think the fake bombers should have worn green felt jackets and shouted "begosh and begorrah" as they let off explosives.

I note that Cameron waited until AFTER the election to discover that he had "inadvertently" called Gani an IS sympathiser. It's almost as if he's a lying slimeball!

Storm in a teacup. We have to acknowledge that the greatest threat of terrorism in Europe at the moment is from people who brand themselves as Islamic. If it was 20 years ago, whilst it would have been Irish related, there wouldn't have been any shouting as the IRA et al tended not to intentionally blow themselves up as part of a bombing unlike the current lot of baddies.

It's disingenuous for Azhar Shah to suggest that although there are people killing in the name of Allah, no matter how ****ed up they may be, it's somehow inaccurate for them to be portrayed as such. That they happen to kill muslims too doesn't make it not true that they're self-identifying as muslim and using the trappings of islam in their death cults. Likewise, as the police admit, it's not like exactly what he yelled added to the exercise so it could have been left out and the whole brouhaha (it's rare I get to use that word) avoided.

I think a sense of perspective is needed here. Police were training to deal with a terrorist attack that could potentially kill dozens. A couple of ill advised words may have offended dozens.

I know which bit I'd prefer them to get right.

Interestingly MI5 have recently raised the threat level on the mainland in relation to Northern Irish terrorism.

Retro terrorism has an almost quaint olde worlde charm about it nowadays, doesn't it? When I were a lad they'd phone in a warning, blow something nobody liked up, not kill anyone, and you ended up with a new Next and a nice Marks and Spencers. Result all round really.

"Likewise, as the police admit, it's not like exactly what he yelled added to the exercise so it could have been left out and the whole brouhaha (it's rare I get to use that word) avoided."

This.

Retro terrorism has an almost quaint olde worlde charm about it nowadays, doesn't it?

The sorting office near where I lived in North London was blown up twice. Neither time was very successful. Met police described it as a Real IRA splinter cell. Local police described it as local sympathisers. The only person hurt was a bloke on the way back from the pub who was lightly injured.

Yes, here in Derby we fondly remember the army recruiting officer shot dead on his way home to his family. And my mum's dread every time my dad had to go over to NI with the RAF.

Great times, eh?

I've filed this under the heading of "Idiotic apology increases demands for even more idiotic action".

I'm from Northern Ireland, and if the police in the 80s/90s had run a similar exercise with bomb warnings being shouted or phoned in using fake NI accents, I would have thought that anyone who complained that "police were persecuting a particular group" would be mercilessly giggled at, and hopefully slapped by the people they claimed to represent.

Same should apply here.

In case insanity prevails though, I vote "Kumbaya!" for the war cry of choice for future exercises.

If anyone objects (!) other possible alternatives are:
"I want my opposable thumbs!"
"I reject the ontological argument!"
"The money was only resting in my account!"
"Touch me with your noodly appendage!"
"Yippee ki yay!"
"Death to those who say Pastafarianism is not a peaceful religion!"
(Although that last one is maybe a bit long?)

EDIT "it could have been left out"
Why? So that we can learn to compulsively or habitually ignore the fact that Islamists are also, by their own standards, extremely devout muslims.
Why would we want to do that? Why would anyone want us to do that?

To be fair to them no non-Muslim terrorists have bombed Manchester in the last 30 years

Didn't the IRA bomb Manchester in the 90's?

I'm liking "Yippee ki yay!"

Would they have to wear a grubby white suicide vest?

"The money was only resting in my account!"

I prefer 'THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!'

or GTA (1) 'GOURANGA!'

20 years ago next month, the Manchester bomb.

I prefer 'THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!'

Ohh .. good one 😀

Edit: Or just "BRICK!"
(or maybe "I love my brick")

It seems to me that Allah insh'd that "Allahu Akbar" was shouted - so rather than attempting to bully the police, Azhar Shah should have a word with the big guy.

'26 INCH FOREVER!'

#campaignforrealwheels

Maybe they could replicate that bloke who used to sell the Manchester Evening News in Market Street. That'd be fitting He'd stand in the street shouting what was apparently "Evenin' News' but he actually pronounced it, really loudly, as "[b]ERRRRRMNNNPH!!!![/b]"

If anyone objects (!) other possible alternatives are:
"I want my opposable thumbs!"

How about...

"I reject monotheism!"
"Confucianism is the only true path"
"Shinto this mother ******"

I have more of a problem with the judgement of the senior officer who apologised than the people who designed to training exercise. The latter is supposed to simulate real conditions to that participants can learn.

Given its the Trafford centre maybe they should have shouted "av it yer Munich b@sterds ! citeeeehhhh!!!!"

I'm from Northern Ireland, and if the police in the 80s/90s had run a similar exercise with bomb warnings being shouted or phoned in using fake NI accents, I would have thought that anyone who complained that "police were persecuting a particular group" would be mercilessly giggled at, and hopefully slapped by the people they claimed to represent.

The issue here is not with the general scenario being an "Islamist" terrorist but with the use of a specific, religious phrase that people following that religion (most of whom are peace loving) found offensive. In your example a closer parallel would be if the fake bomb warning, called in in a fake Oirish accent contained the words "this bomb is primed to explode in 20 minutes, in the name of Jesus Christ, our saviour" which doubtless plenty of Christians (of various denominations) would have found provocative and would also have been as unecesssary.

FWIW I can totally see why they did it how they did it, but I can also totally see how, on reflection, they've recognised why part of that is problematic and I think their explanation and apology is pretty much spot on.

The issue here is not with the general scenario being an "Islamist" terrorist but with the use of a specific, religious phrase that people following that religion (most of whom are peace loving) found offensive.

On the contrary, the problem is that a few gobby members of the religion are going after those who tell/represent the truth of the fact that recent mass-killing terrorist attacks have all been carried out to the cry of Allahu Akbar. It is perhaps easier/safer than sending press releases to Daesh and their like asking them not to profane the prophet when they are being murderous scum-bags, but it is very much a case of shooting the messenger for being truthful.

"Atheists object to Police shouting silly nonsense in public".

"What do they think gets shouted, Avon Calling?" 😆

Perhaps the suicide bombers should start being a bit more imaginative with their pre-detonation shouts? Lets be honest... "Allahu Akbar" has just become so cliched. Its a big book. Surely it must contain many other snappy 2 or 3 word calls to arms, before liberally distributing your body parts around a wide area?

And while we're on the subject, hadn't they got the memo about us having reached peak beard?

Edlong
You might be right, if you could produce evidence about who exactly found the phrase "offensive".

You say it was "people following that religion", but you fail to mention how many, or what percentage.

In the Northern Ireland example that you use, those words were _never_actually_used_ by the IRA or fellow travellers. So their scripted use could well be considered deliberately insulting.

In the Manchester example, the words are used were taken from the script of the majority of islamist bombers. The police didn't make them up, they did a good impersonation.

If you/anyone choses to be offended by that? Good for you, get back to me when something happens that actually matters.

Globally most of the people who hear those words spoken followed by a big bang and monstrous death are actually muslim, and I think that the fact that people are killing innocents in the name of [insert god or tribe here] should lead to a degree of offence that far outweighs the (at most) minor discomfort caused by having someone who is impersonating an islamist bomber following their script accurately.

I'm from Northern Ireland, and if the police in the 80s/90s had run a similar exercise with bomb warnings being shouted or phoned in using fake NI accents, I would have thought that anyone who complained that "police were persecuting a particular group" would be mercilessly giggled at

Is that because irishophobia didn't quite reach the current levels of islamophobia ?

IIRC you could wear a Bri-Nylon shirt and drink Guinness without being verbally abused or attacked by a bigot, and very few churches were set on fire.

EDIT : Btw, I can't see any evidence in relation to this story that anyone is claiming [i]"police were persecuting a particular group",[/i] have you got any?

The criticism appears to be based along the following claim :

[i]"We are absolutely angry and very unhappy and annoyed because these people who kill themselves are not part of Islam and they are not even Muslim. They are terrorists, simply terrorists who are brainwashing people."[/i]

We are absolutely angry and very unhappy and annoyed because these people who kill themselves are not part of Islam and they are not even Muslim

But thats a nonsense though, isn't it? They undeniably are part of Islam. They may be at the more shouty, explodey end of the spectrum, but they're definitely part of it. To say they're not is patently absurd, and just undermines your whole argument.

You might be right, if you could produce evidence about who exactly found the phrase "offensive".

You say it was "people following that religion", but you fail to mention how many, or what percentage.

I might be right regardless of whether I produce any evidence of anything. I'm expressing an opinion, not presenting a legal case.

In the Manchester example, the words are used were taken from the script of the majority of islamist bombers. The police didn't make them up, they did a good impersonation.

No one claims that the words don't accurately reflect real cases, GMP have explained that this is why they used them - but they've also recognised that there are specific reasons why on reflection they regret using them - nothing would have detracted from the success of the exercise if they had used "Avon Calling" as a substitute.

In the Northern Ireland example that you use, those words were _never_actually_used_ by the IRA or fellow travellers.

You might be right, if you could produce evidence...

But thats a nonsense though, isn't it? They undeniably are part of Islam. They may be at the more shouty, exploded end of the spectrum, but they're definitely part of it. To say they're not is patently absurd.

Of course it isn't. In the same way that the IRA catholics and Loyalist protestants weren't part of christianity or spreading the teachings of Christ.

One of the principle characteristics of Islamophobia is to claim that Muslims, aka as moderate Muslims, don't do enough to reclaim their religion from the extremists and terrorists.

Here is a classic example where the authorities want to automatically equate Islam with terrorism. When Muslims say please don't automatically equate Islam with terrorism they are accused of complaining over enough.

It seems that some people want Muslims to fight back against the terrorists and reclaim their religion with one hand tied behind their backs.

How about helping them instead ? GM seem to accept this by saying : “We accept that those words didn’t really add anything to the exercise. It won’t be happening again.”

'26 INCH FOREVER!'

#campaignforrealwheels

Everything about this is so right! 😆

Of course it isn't. In the same way that the IRA catholics and Loyalist protestants weren't part of christianity or spreading the teachings of Christ.

It is, you know. I don't know if you'd noticed, or not, but over in places like Syria, Afghanistann and Iraq, there are an absolutely huge number of people who regard the exlodey version of Islam to be the one true version. They aren't some tiny little 'Popular Front of Judea' style splinter group. There are loads of them. This is a huge mass movement, that now controls huge swaths of the middle east. And everything they do, they claim to do in the name of Allah.

The IRA weren't ever claiming to be blowing Birmingham pubs up as they were only following the teachings of Jesus. And they weren't shooting soldiers while shouting their dedication to Rome and the pope.

Theres an absolutely massive difference! The comparison doesn't stand up at all, as in the case of the beardy shouty, beheady lot, their whole raison d'être, according to everything they say themselves, is Islam. So to say that they aren't part of Islam is- like I said - a complete nonsense!

Binners you're conflating two things though..large amounts of People in the Middle east having a sectarian war, and the persecution of Muslims in the West by equating Islam with terrorism...

are not the same thing.

And they weren't shooting soldiers while shouting their dedication to Rome and the pope.

You're right. The situation in NI had no connection to religion. You carry on believing that, I really CBA.

Given it was the gaudy, vulgar Trafford Centre they should've just blown it up proper and let it go the same way as it's equally awful city centre predecessor.

Sorted.

As far as the intent of the OP goes, not sure what levels of 'authenticity' are required to recreate the exercise but 'community objections' whilst just a load of old ballcocks are entirely expected in our right-to-be-offended world.

ernie, you seem to be confused about the possible role of religion in irish terrorism.
In reply to this:

But thats a nonsense though, isn't it? They undeniably are part of Islam. They may be at the more shouty, exploded end of the spectrum, but they're definitely part of it. To say they're not is patently absurd.

Of course it isn't. In the same way that the IRA catholics and Loyalist protestants weren't part of christianity or spreading the teachings of Christ.

and then

You're right. The situation in NI had no connection to religion. You carry on believing that, I really CBA.

So do you think that religion is:
a) part if the problem worth considering or
b) not part of the problem and not worth considering

Its not always a straghtforward link (particularly in NI, as many of the original political thinkers in favour of Irish independence were protestants), but in islamist terrorism the link is clearer than most.

Theres no point in second guessing the reasons for the bombyness and shoutyness of some people and absolutely refusing to listen to the reasons the bombers themselves give for carrying out attacks.

Its religion all the way down, from sunni attacking shia (and vice versa) to both of them attacking the kuffar.

edlong,
Maybe asking you for evidence is going too far, but I'd genuinely like to see for once if the average muslim in the street is actually as easily offended as their alleged representatives claim they are.

Ernie,
If you are going to use "islamophobia", can you give a definition please.
It is too often used to try to protect islamism (a political idea) from criticism, I assume you don't subscribe to that so what would your definition be?

I can see the issue that the offended (professional or amateur) have and on the whole I agree. But....

these people who kill themselves are not part of Islam and they are not even Muslim

Of course, [i]the point at which you kill someone[/i], is the common sense answer but the issue it's self is a bit more nuanced I think.

It is, you know. I don't know if you'd noticed, or not, but over in places like Syria, Afghanistann and Iraq, there are an absolutely huge number of people who regard the exlodey version of Islam to be the one true version. They aren't some tiny little 'Popular Front of Judea' style splinter group. There are loads of them. This is a huge mass movement, that now controls huge swaths of the middle east. And everything they do, they claim to do in the name of Allah.

and you know this because you've seen the census statistics for the region where people asked declared that to be their belief?
has it ever occurred to you that since the west carried out its own form of legitimised terrorism of blowing up mass sections of the middle east form afar using its high tech weapons it allowed these crackpots in there in the first place?
or that since many of the civilians who once lived there have fled and have since either drowned in the Mediterranean or are stuck in a refugee camp somewhere in Europe?
or that they are simply going along with those now in power simply out of fear as they know that refusal to comply will result in their deaths?

sorry but you're talking out of your bib shorts on this one...and i think even you know it

you got 3 options:
get back under your bridge and wait for the goats
eat a pastie/sausage roll
get a job as Dodgy Dave's new spin doctor

When these chaps blow themselves up their body parts become intertwined with body parts of is non believers.
Do they really want that?
As for the question, no apology needed. If they are so easily offended they are probably living in the wrong country.
Lighten the **** up.

Lighten the **** up.

so its perfectly ok to stereotype all muslims as being potential terrorists then is it?
in the video showing the drill, that was publicly posted on all forms of social media by GMP, the phrase can clearly be heard. so now anyone who remotely looks asian, with a beard or wearing the attire will now be treated with even more suspicion by members of the public!
and all this is doing is that it will now be used as a propaganda tool and be used by the extremists to try and further radicalise young british muslims.

its funny how they associate such acts with muslims especially when it happens in western culture...what about in the middle east, ****stan or afghanistan where its a common occurrence and its muslims killing muslims? you dont hear the media saying a "muslim terrorist has killed X many people in baghdad?" no instead they just mention that a suicide bomber has killed X many people...but as soon as its happens over here the point of everybody's fixation becomes the terrorist religious denomination

i'm not saying that the training exercise was wrong. GMP were well within their rights to carry out this training exercise but they claimed it was to test the responses of their emergency responses in the wake of such an attack.
that attack could be by anybody...so why make it look like they were specifically training for an attack by a muslim jihadist? would a bomb attack by a non muslim be any different?

Presumably they wouldn't be shouting some drivel about a god before enacting their particular zealotry, but seeing as the threat we face is from zealots of the Islamic type, the shout used in the rehearsal was an accurate reflection of what the real thing brings, as evidenced by the almost concurrent stabbing of members of the German public...

All the usual mild xenophobic STW stuff from the same people, no real surprises
but this is a little gem i will try to sneak into conversations!

zealots of the Islamic type

I was thinking "lighten the **** up" should be used more often on these kind of threads - LTFU has a ring to it

gonzy - Member

so its perfectly ok to stereotype all muslims as being potential terrorists then is it?

Well it certainly is if your name is Donald Trump.

Or you happen to be a low-level sanctimonious bigot who reads the Guardian.

The fact that a fifth of the world's population is Muslim, and million upon millions of Muslims don't go around shouting "Allahu Akbar" before blowing themselves up and killing all those around them, doesn't come into it.

.

EDIT : On the question of [i] "lighten the **** up" [/i] these two comment seem admirably sensible :

[i]"We are absolutely angry and very unhappy and annoyed because these people who kill themselves are not part of Islam and they are not even Muslim. They are terrorists, simply terrorists who are brainwashing people."[/i]

And

[i]“We accept that those words didn’t really add anything to the exercise. It won’t be happening again.”[/i]

Im with Gonzy on this.

A/ The west caused all the mither in the ME, the silly media loves it and uses any excuse whatsoever to create division and confusion.

B/ If the Trafford Centre was attacked they would need an airborne response due to the congestion and I doubt the standard 22 stone gmp copper would pass the test,

C/ If the silly police concentrated more on talking/visibility/approachability to communities rather than trying to play at some kind of special forces superhero bellendry they wouldn't need all this crap that will only lead to further alienation

They shouted something "Ackbar "

less than a month after this tragedy http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35965835

It's pretty insensitive stuff

after all the lies and wrong doings of hillsborough the police seem to be apologising to anyone, for any minor indescretion, just like a naughty child saying sorry after theyve eaten all the biscuits and been sick.

Entirely different police force (gmp not Yorks) but don't bother with details eh

police forces in general..................