I am not sure of the wisdom of posting this but I thought it would be an interesting point given the recent discussions around this. I have my flameproof suit on and a fire extinguisher to hand.
Anyone who knows me will know I am about as far from the misogynistic caveman type as I can be and that I treat all people as people and have spent my life working a female dominated environment so have some idea of what it is like to be in a minority ( as much as a WASP male can be)
25 years ago I was accused of sexual harassment by a junior colleague. NO official complaint was made but it was reported to my boss. She didn't tell me for over a year.
Two incidents caused this report. First was I apologised for something ( I can't remember what) to this colleague and whilst doing so placed my hand on her forearm - intended to be a reassuring gesture / show sincerity. This was in a public area with other staff present. Secondly the same colleague was suffering from painful muscle spasms in her shoulders and as I can do massage I offered to loosen up the muscles for her ( in a public area, over her clothes, offer made in front of others)
Both incidents where completely innocent from me if now I can see somewhat naive. I didn't even like the ruddy woman! I think she had serious issues herself and thus my actions were seen in the light of her own issues rather than my intent.
There is no doubt this report affected the way my (female) boss thought of me and damaged my career even tho there was no official investigation, I never had the chance to put my side of it and years later the same junior colleague acknowledged that I meant well. As above I didn't even find out about the report for over a year although apparently it had been openly discussed behind my back.
I think these reports where as much a result of issues this woman had and obviously I learned from this and have been ever so careful since to be as non threatening as I can be towards my colleagues.
With hindsight I can understand why she made the complaint and I am certain my boss could have handled it better but it still damaged my career. I very much resent that I never had a chance to explain my side of it.
So I guess my point is there are many shades of sexual harassment and that what is intended as one thing can easily be seen as something else
It just shows I guess that even with the best of intentions things can be badly misinterpreted. I though the pat on the arm to be a non threatening and reassuring gesture - it wasn't taken as that that the offer to loosen up the muscles was done to help a colleague in pain!
Flame away!
but it still damaged my career.
How did it damage your career?
pervert.
gobuchal - my boss no longer trusted me or my judgement. I was moved to a different position where I was effectively less senior and turned down for promotion ( but I had made other mistakes as well)
pervert.
You seem stressed, ton. Fancy a back rub?
Another thread on the same subject because it’s in the media and trending ?
How about a thread on the weather..
You seem stressed, ton. Fancy a back rub?
only if Jezza does it. 😀
This thread's making me horny.
Didn't we cover this in one of Geetee's recent threads?
The whole situation is a mess.
Of course innocent gestures are being made out to be more than they are/were. This is partly due to the current feeding frenzy. I can think of numerous times I've acted similarly to you.
OTOH people who feel they're under assault (and it's mostly women) are now more empowered to make their feelings known. Perhaps, in your case, your colleague would now find it more acceptable to tell you how she felt on the first occasion and that would have been an end to it.
TJ you did nothing wrong but if your actions were performed by a tory mp I'd want them pegged out at low tide.
They are down, let's enjoy every kick we can get in.
Indeed scotroute a " get your hands off me!" would have been enough
I would consider your actions inappropriate. I would never touch a female member of staff and certainly not offer to give one a massage, that just sounds creepy.
Indeed scotroute a " get your hands off me!" would have been enough
Depends. Were you in a [s]missionary[/s] senior position?
I would never touch a female member of staff and certainly not offer to give one a massage, that just sounds creepy.
Also agree. Not saying it's creepy, but I just wouldn't do it.
Now the male members I'd be smacking on the ass and calling treacle all day.
[quote=tjagain ]Indeed scotroute a " get your hands off me!" would have been enough
Yep - and it could be that she felt threatened either by your position in the organisations hierarchy - or your sheer physical presence 😉
FWIW - I don't see there's necessarily anything wrong with either of your actions. I'm not exactly the most touchy/feely person but there are genuinely times where a physical touch can have a calming and reassuring effect.
"My" ladies frequently ask me for a back rub.
Zippy - I did do something wrong - I touched someone without their consent and made them feel uncomfutable
Jonnyboi - I agree. Unwise and naive from me. I have/ had trained myself to see my colleagues as people not women ( to the extent that other colleagues have said to me things like - "you know so and so, the pretty one" and I have to actually call up a mental picture of them to see if we are talking about the same person) - and thus I completely missed that implication
Edit - scotroute - I am not particularly touchy feely but use of touch is an important part of my job even to the point of giving hugs when needed so touch is normalised to some extent in nursing
[quote=tjagain ]Zippy - I did do something wrong - I touched a someone without their consent.
So, take this to the next step. Should you have asked if it was OK to touch her? Wouldn't that also come under the heading of "unwanted sexual advance" (depending upon the mindset of the individuals involved and in judging it)?
Yes - and some of know that without any "training".Edit - scotroute - I am not particularly touchy feely but use of touch is an important part of my job even to the point of giving hugs when needed so touch is normalised to some extent in nursing
May she'd heard about your well documented views on using protection?
Ah well - its a sunny day so bike ride time. Have fun with this chaps.
I doubt this thread will have a happy ending...
So what if she felt uncomfortable, let her, no harm was intended nor done. I'm sure she never considered what you felt when she reported you. People are too worried now about offending others and others are looking too hard for offence. Get on with your life and if you offend the odd person here and there, meh, who cares. If it wasn't you it'd be someone else anyway.
tjagain - Member
Ah well - its a sunny day so bike ride time. Have fun with this chaps.
Annnnd the real reason for the thread.
1) pick a topic that could potentially polarise opinion
2) add some random narrative to outline the posters point
3) go out for the day
4) come back to see if the threads hit 3 pages
5) sit back in the glow of a job well done
Doffs cap.
"What is wrong with women these days ?
What men should do is completely ignore them and see how long it is before they start questioning themselves as to what is wrong / have I suddenly become unattractive"
A quote.
No - the real reason was I thought it an interesting point for discussion from me having been accused of sexual harassment.
gobuchal - my boss no longer trusted me or my judgement. I was moved to a different position where I was effectively less senior and turned down for promotion ( but I had made other mistakes as well)
If she really thought you had an issue, she would of done something. Don't you work in the NHS? Even 25 years ago, they had pretty robust procedures.
( but I had made other mistakes as well)
Sounds much more likely the real reason for the effect on your career.
I doubt this thread will have a happy ending...
For £500+VAT it could do.
Love you ling time.
Really you should have been spoken to at the time, whilst your colleague may have felt you were a bit off, I'm sure a quiet word so you knew she was uncomfortable would have been the best way to handle it.
Whilst it [i]could [/i] be deemed inappropriate I don't think a one off comment like that really constitutes harassment.
Unknowingly having the sword of damocles hanging over you is equally, if not more inappropriate.
Also, of you really were Mr tickle, and you did something further down the line when it was known there had been a previous complaint that wasn't brought up with you.. Well that would drop the company right in it for effectively ignoring a potential issue.
This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous.
Merely touching someone is not unacceptable the has to be context and where on there body you touched them.
Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.
We are heading for a very emotionally sterile world when all touching is considered sexual or inappropriate.
Chip...
At last someone talking a little bit of sense..
Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.
I guess the blanket ban is there just to remove any grey areas. Some may be ok with touching, others not. In a work environment it probably just solves a lot of headaches by just saying no to all. Removes all ambiguity....obviously at the cost of nuance etc.
She didn't report you because you touched her arm though dude. It was because you touched her arm and offered to give her a shoulder massage. That second one alone is a bit weird, in conjunction with the first I can see why it was reported. You have to realise that your actions can be interpreted in a different way to how you intended. So however innocent the massage offer was, and sounded in your head, she may have heard a completely different tone to the one you intended.
I guess the blanket ban is there just to remove any grey areas
Maybe, but don’t call it sexual harrasment call it something else. Like showing humanity.
“Jeff I’ve called you in to my office today because it’s been reported to me that you touched Brenda’s arm in an unprovoked act of human kindness. It has been noted on your permanent record, don’t let it happen again”
You have to realise that your actions can be interpreted in a different way to how you intended. So however innocent the massage offer was, and sounded in your head, she may have heard a completely different tone to the one you intended.
Oh I do and I now see it clearly. The thing is I have offered and done so for male colleagues and in my mind I was treating her as I would anyone else
Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.
It could be, you choose to believe the OPs motivation for touching another member of staff. How do you know that in a similar situation someone might do the same thing to see how far they can go?
When you offfered her this massage you did not hold your two hands in front of you at chest height before pumping your fingers asif honking two imaginary horns?
Did she fill in a [url= http://www.27bslash6.com/f26a.html ]F26-A form?[/url]
(Sorry, nothing helpful to add for OP, but I like chip’s commentary)
This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous.
Merely touching someone is not unacceptable the has to be context and where on there body you touched them.
One of the points in The Guardian article we discussed on the #MeToo thread was:
[i]"Don’t touch women you don’t know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general."[/i]
Some folk, including my wife, said that I was being an arse by taking that too literally and [i]obviously[/i] it depends on context. But it does seem that [i]some[/i] women do expect this extreme. Seems incredibly inhuman to me. 🙁
This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous.
Merely touching someone is not unacceptable the has to be context and where on there body you touched them.Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.
We are heading for a very emotionally sterile world when all touching is considered sexual or inappropriate.
This and calling it unprovoked human kindness is where I’m at. It’s a sad world where showing compassion and trying to be nice is considered deviant behaviour
At work I have found it best to just not engage in anything other than a super lofty and professional manner. Several years ago I went for a post work drink with a younger female member of staff who got very drunk downing three large reds in short order as she unloaded all of her issues onto me. I listened to her drunken ranting and then called her boyfriend to come and get her as it was evident she was too pissed to drive. I then went home. Several weeks later I heard the rumour she was spreading was I'd drugged her because, she doesn't "get pissed that quickly" no reason given as to why I'd do so or indeed any motive or accusations of inappropriate advances on my part. So there it is, try to offer a shoulder and that's what you get.
It's a simple fact that you have to protect yourself from any hint of anything remotely sexual these days, best to have witnesses at all times IMHO but even that doesn't help if someone's flattering themselves.
tjagain - Member
25 years ago I was accused of sexual harassment by a junior colleague. NO official complaint was made but it was reported to my boss. She didn't tell me for over a year.
Crikey that sounds serious if the boss was made known. 😯
The simple rule. Do Not touch other people. Regardless of gender, age etc. Stay at arm distance. Not even shaking hands if possible unless they offer.
First was I apologised for something ( I can't remember what) to this colleague and whilst doing so placed my hand on her forearm - intended to be a reassuring gesture / show sincerity.
In my part of the world you would be in serious trouble especially if she is not your partner. We don't even shake hands with other people coz that's not in our culture.
Some parts of the world they lock up electricians for touching strange men on the hip in crowded bars.
I never 'touch' a female colleague - very easy way to end up in trouble. I do know one or two 'touchy' females that quite openly touch your arm, but I certainly don't reciprocate. I've had a young female colleague come for a hug in the office on the day she was leaving - I felt 'uncomfortable' as I'm old enough to be her dad, but it was a 'thanks' type thing and we do keep in touch - not so sure it would work the other way round.
You do have to be very careful, as some folk see the complete opposite in your intentions.
We have one young 'married' girl in the office who get's very 'tactile' after a few beers (nothing is intended, just she get's very touchy) - one of the other girls said 'watch out' in a 'nice' way. Again, if it's a bloke getting like that, things would certainly be different.
Do Not touch other people. Regardless of gender, age etc. Stay at arm distance. Not even shaking hands if possible unless they offer.
I don't think that is a healthy way to live at all.
never 'touch' a female colleague - very easy way to end up in trouble. I do know one or two 'touchy' females that quite openly touch your arm, but I certainly don't reciprocate. I've had a young female colleague come for a hug in the office on the day she was leaving - I felt 'uncomfortable' as I'm old enough to be her dad, but it was a 'thanks' type thing and we do keep in touch - not so sure it would work the other way round.You do have to be very careful, as some folk see the complete opposite in your intentions.
I understand what you are saying, but isn't that a pretty sterile, unpleasant way to have to live your life? Clearly some people behave very badly and others may misjudge a situation, but it all seems a bit paranoid to me.
